Why play an Adept when a Magician can do everything? Options

[Samoth]

By RAW, Magicians can do nearly everything an adept can do equally, if not better.

Useful adept powers like Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes, Traceless Walk, Killing Hands, etc. can all be replicated with spells more cheaply and more efficiently (Stunbolt/Manabolt replaces Killing Hands, Levitate replaces traceless walk, etc.) Adepts have a few powers which cannot be duplicated by magic, but they are generally situational abilties such as Analytics or Linguistics, so no big loss there.

Forget paying 1 power point for astral perception as an adept: all it will do is open you to astral attacks from enemies just out of Killing Hands range who move at the speed of thought and fry you with mana spells). Forget loading up on critical strike when you can kill anything dead with a well placed manabolt. 4 PP seems high for increased reflexes 3, when any mage with 4 magic can get the same effect from the spell. Paying the hideously overpriced .5 PP per point of spell resistance is right out when you can buy counterspelling skill dice much more cheaply. The list goes on and on.

Obviously, Adepts fit a certain character style, and not everyone wants to play a mage. Adept powers are always readily available, while magicians may not always have appropriate spells sustained/foci'd/whatever. Adepts don't have to worry about getting their powers through wards, or losing their foci or having their abilities impaired by a magemask, not do they have to spread out their karma in half a dozen specialized magic skills. However, by RAW in 4A, adepts seem very gimped compared to magicians. Thoughts?

[DireRadiant]

I play dragons, not wimpy mages.

[Malachi]

By RAW, Magicians can do nearly everything an adept can do equally, if not better.

Useful adept powers like Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes, Traceless Walk, Killing Hands, etc. can all be replicated with spells more cheaply and more efficiently (Stunbolt/Manabolt replaces Killing Hands, Levitate replaces traceless walk, etc.) Adepts have a few powers which cannot be duplicated by magic, but they are generally situational abilties such as Analytics or Linguistics, so no big loss there.

Forget paying 1 power point for astral perception as an adept: all it will do is open you to astral attacks from enemies just out of Killing Hands range who move at the speed of thought and fry you with mana spells). Forget loading up on critical strike when you can kill anything dead with a well placed manabolt. 4 PP seems high for increased reflexes 3, when any mage with 4 magic can get the same effect from the spell. Paying the hideously overpriced .5 PP per point of spell resistance is right out when you can buy counterspelling skill dice much more cheaply. The list goes on and on.

Obviously, Adepts fit a certain character style, and not everyone wants to play a mage. Adept powers are always readily available, while magicians may not always have appropriate spells sustained/foci'd/whatever. Adepts don't have to worry about getting their powers through wards, or losing their foci or having their abilities impaired by a magemask, not do they have to spread out their karma in half a dozen specialized magic skills. However, by RAW in 4A, adepts seem very gimped compared to magicians. Thoughts?

The hallmark of the Adept (in my mind) has always been the Improved Ability power, to which there is no direct spell equivalent. Adepts don't need to have learned the spell, don't suffer drain (a few rare Adept powers do, but generally no), and (again mostly) don't need to spend a Complex Action to activate their powers. Also, with Masking the Adept can do all of their stuff without creating an Astral signature.

[Karoline]

Don't forget the lack of sustaining penalties. Sure a mage can have increased reflexes and boosted body and boosted agility and traceless walk via levitate all at the same time, but it takes -8 penalty to every the mage does to do so. That or a heavy nuyen and karma investment in foci.

Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.

Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.

[Samoth]

Don't forget the lack of sustaining penalties. Sure a mage can have increased reflexes and boosted body and boosted agility and traceless walk via levitate all at the same time, but it takes -8 penalty to every the mage does to do so. That or a heavy nuyen and karma investment in foci.

Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.

Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.

They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.

[Karoline]

They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

[Lansdren]

Whilst I can see the OP point there is three things I would add.

1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good

[D2F]

They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.

That's what "Shade" is for...

[Draco18s]

That's what "Shade" is for...

Or being a magically active creature before buying adept.* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(Drake, shapeshifter, vampire, ghoul, etc)

*Well, astral perception, at least. Save yourself a whole PP. Projection is really niche.

[Dakka Dakka]

That's what "Shade" is for...

that may not be such a good idea, if you have bno way of going back or finding your way during your stay on the astral plane.

@Improved/Increase Reflexes: The spell only improves initiative (score and passes) but the adept power improves REA and IPs. Thus the latter also helps with defending against attacks and driving and not just with acting earlier and more often.

@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?
The problem with dual natured creatures is that they can be attacked from the astral plane all the time. Adepts and magicians can turn this vulnerability off.

[Draco18s]

@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?

See note which was edited in. I misread.

[Xahn Borealis]

This thread makes me want to make an adept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SaintHax]

Whilst I can see the OP point there is three things I would add.

1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good

1. Is an optional rule, it should be standard though.
2. True
3. Extended Masking takes care of this for the mage. Some cheesey mages also put a Manascape spell quickened to them to fix it also.

I play a Mystic adept (160 career karma, magic 7), and we are gimpier than an adept for the first 100 karma or so. But the Adept is the weakest path in the long run, IMO.

[Samoth]

@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?
The problem with dual natured creatures is that they can be attacked from the astral plane all the time. Adepts and magicians can turn this vulnerability off.

There is the one ghoul variety in RC that can project for no good reason.

[Rasumichin]

There is the one ghoul variety in RC that can project for no good reason.

Yeah, the gaki.
The downside is that their sunlight allergy is stronger than that of baseline ghouls, though.
But they are an interesting choice for some concepts nevertheless (and there's always the Alleviate Allergy spell for the tricked out gaki mystic adept).


Regarding the original question, yes, mages are the most versatile characters in the game. By far. If you want to become godlike, go mage. Has always been this way, will always be this way.

However, in addition to things that have already been mentioned, adepts get some very strong metamagic techniqes.
Adept centering and attunement (item) just get stronger and stronger with every initiation. They do not seem impressive at first glance, but at some point, they just take off and leave everything else behind.
In the end, adepts are the ultimate specialists. If they choose to really max out a certain dicepool, they will become absolutely godlike in that area with enough karma.
Imagine what a sniper adept with an attuned rifle and a high initiate grade can do. Without sustaining foci, spirit aid or any other temporary (and therefore, ultimately less worthwhile) boosts. Not even cyberzombies will keep up with that kind of firepower in the long run.

Yes, there's the Enhance Aim spell. Guess what, it's compatible with Attunement. That shit stacks. And it's a dicepool bonus, for all those ambidextrous gunslingers out there.

Damn, at some point, i have to stat out a seal shifter mystic adept sniper and see at what point it can make a maxed out elven catgirl cyberzombie weep with envy.

[Neraph]

1) Magicians are powerful. Adepts are powerful. They fulfill different rolls. Mystic Adepts, however, should always be taken in lieu of the other two options.

a) In case the player wishes to play a simpler character than either a street samurai (lots of bookkeeping for implants), hacker (the Matrix, enough said), or Technomancer (a mage by another name), then Adept is very appropriate.

b) Also, even Adepts can benefit from limited amounts of bioware/cyberware.

2) If you do not take any summoning skills and only use the Calling rules from Running Wild, this frees up many, many BP and karma requirements from the Conjuring skillgroup and focuses them into Negotiation and Arcana, two very good skills in their own right.

3) Infected (especially Nosferatu) make playing any sort of Awakened character much more powerful... Especially Mystic Adepts. Being able to easily start with the ability to boost your Magic score to a 10, and less easily an 11, with redefinable Mystic Adept abilities is amazing.

a) Especially considering you chose a Charisma based tradition and too Improved (Charisma) and Improved (Willpower). And Psyche.

[Rasumichin]

2) If you do not take any summoning skills and only use the Calling rules from Running Wild, this frees up many, many BP and karma requirements from the Conjuring skillgroup and focuses them into Negotiation and Arcana, two very good skills in their own right.

Calling and Offering are awesome. And potentially deadly for the caller. Never deal with a dragon? Damn, never deal with a reaper. Or a huntsman. Or...wait, you'll deal with them anyways.

I wouldn't use them instead of Conjuring, though. But rather in addition to it. And pacts. And pokemancy. And binding free spirits. Oh my god...

a) Especially considering you chose a Charisma based tradition and too Improved (Charisma) and Improved (Willpower). And Psyche.

And red mesc, eX, trance and novacoke. Never mind the hangover (or the penalties to...about any physical action).

[hermit]

Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way? Why play a mundane when a mage is somuch more powerful? Why play a non-troll when trolls are the only race that can actually wear viable armour because their primary soak attribute is so damn high?

[Rasumichin]

Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way?

Some people prefer hackers that don't die as soon as they get out of their rigger cocoon and into a real fight.
Gets kinda hard to pull that off with a technomancer that can actually outshine a hacker.

[Karoline]

Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way? Why play a mundane when a mage is somuch more powerful? Why play a non-troll when trolls are the only race that can actually wear viable armour because their primary soak attribute is so damn high?

Aww, you beat me to it. Most specifically: Why play a mundane when an awakened is more powerful, and why play any awakened besides a mage when a mage is more powerful?

Yeah, sure, long run, mages will always come out on top, and even short term they can be really powerful. So why not play a mage? Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.

[Samoth]

Aww, you beat me to it. Most specifically: Why play a mundane when an awakened is more powerful, and why play any awakened besides a mage when a mage is more powerful?

Yeah, sure, long run, mages will always come out on top, and even short term they can be really powerful. So why not play a mage? Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.

I realize that, and I don't want this to turn into a discussion about roll playing vs. role playing. I know mages aren't for everyone.

I am looking for things that adepts can do that mages can't. I really can't think of many.

[Karoline]

Ah, okay, give me a couple minutes...

[hermit]

Some people prefer hackers that don't die as soon as they get out of their rigger cocoon and into a real fight. Gets kinda hard to pull that off with a technomancer that can actually outshine a hacker.

Kind of where the Adept outshines the mage, too. Of course, the Techno, come Karma and Immersion, can become a terribly effective fighter too, especially if you add selected drugs (or, even better, drug effect BTL, given the Techno is immune to BTL addiction).

My point being: unbalanced as SR4 is, why only go by the numbers?

Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.

QFT

[BlueMax]

We have two adepts.
1. Medical Adept from Heck. "You've only taken 9 boxes, stop acting like a baby"
2. Hyper Perception badhoop. 16 or more dice for Perception or Astral Perception.

What makes them awesome, their powers are always on and have no side effects.

BlueMax

[Dakka Dakka]

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit anyone?
SCNR