By RAW, Magicians can do nearly everything an adept can do equally, if not better.
Useful adept powers like Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes, Traceless Walk, Killing Hands, etc. can all be replicated with spells more cheaply and more efficiently (Stunbolt/Manabolt replaces Killing Hands, Levitate replaces traceless walk, etc.) Adepts have a few powers which cannot be duplicated by magic, but they are generally situational abilties such as Analytics or Linguistics, so no big loss there.
Forget paying 1 power point for astral perception as an adept: all it will do is open you to astral attacks from enemies just out of Killing Hands range who move at the speed of thought and fry you with mana spells). Forget loading up on critical strike when you can kill anything dead with a well placed manabolt. 4 PP seems high for increased reflexes 3, when any mage with 4 magic can get the same effect from the spell. Paying the hideously overpriced .5 PP per point of spell resistance is right out when you can buy counterspelling skill dice much more cheaply. The list goes on and on.
Obviously, Adepts fit a certain character style, and not everyone wants to play a mage. Adept powers are always readily available, while magicians may not always have appropriate spells sustained/foci'd/whatever. Adepts don't have to worry about getting their powers through wards, or losing their foci or having their abilities impaired by a magemask, not do they have to spread out their karma in half a dozen specialized magic skills. However, by RAW in 4A, adepts seem very gimped compared to magicians. Thoughts?
Full Version: Why play an Adept when a Magician can do everything?
I play dragons, not wimpy mages.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 08:47 AM) 
By RAW, Magicians can do nearly everything an adept can do equally, if not better.
Useful adept powers like Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes, Traceless Walk, Killing Hands, etc. can all be replicated with spells more cheaply and more efficiently (Stunbolt/Manabolt replaces Killing Hands, Levitate replaces traceless walk, etc.) Adepts have a few powers which cannot be duplicated by magic, but they are generally situational abilties such as Analytics or Linguistics, so no big loss there.
Forget paying 1 power point for astral perception as an adept: all it will do is open you to astral attacks from enemies just out of Killing Hands range who move at the speed of thought and fry you with mana spells). Forget loading up on critical strike when you can kill anything dead with a well placed manabolt. 4 PP seems high for increased reflexes 3, when any mage with 4 magic can get the same effect from the spell. Paying the hideously overpriced .5 PP per point of spell resistance is right out when you can buy counterspelling skill dice much more cheaply. The list goes on and on.
Obviously, Adepts fit a certain character style, and not everyone wants to play a mage. Adept powers are always readily available, while magicians may not always have appropriate spells sustained/foci'd/whatever. Adepts don't have to worry about getting their powers through wards, or losing their foci or having their abilities impaired by a magemask, not do they have to spread out their karma in half a dozen specialized magic skills. However, by RAW in 4A, adepts seem very gimped compared to magicians. Thoughts?
Useful adept powers like Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes, Traceless Walk, Killing Hands, etc. can all be replicated with spells more cheaply and more efficiently (Stunbolt/Manabolt replaces Killing Hands, Levitate replaces traceless walk, etc.) Adepts have a few powers which cannot be duplicated by magic, but they are generally situational abilties such as Analytics or Linguistics, so no big loss there.
Forget paying 1 power point for astral perception as an adept: all it will do is open you to astral attacks from enemies just out of Killing Hands range who move at the speed of thought and fry you with mana spells). Forget loading up on critical strike when you can kill anything dead with a well placed manabolt. 4 PP seems high for increased reflexes 3, when any mage with 4 magic can get the same effect from the spell. Paying the hideously overpriced .5 PP per point of spell resistance is right out when you can buy counterspelling skill dice much more cheaply. The list goes on and on.
Obviously, Adepts fit a certain character style, and not everyone wants to play a mage. Adept powers are always readily available, while magicians may not always have appropriate spells sustained/foci'd/whatever. Adepts don't have to worry about getting their powers through wards, or losing their foci or having their abilities impaired by a magemask, not do they have to spread out their karma in half a dozen specialized magic skills. However, by RAW in 4A, adepts seem very gimped compared to magicians. Thoughts?
The hallmark of the Adept (in my mind) has always been the Improved Ability power, to which there is no direct spell equivalent. Adepts don't need to have learned the spell, don't suffer drain (a few rare Adept powers do, but generally no), and (again mostly) don't need to spend a Complex Action to activate their powers. Also, with Masking the Adept can do all of their stuff without creating an Astral signature.
Don't forget the lack of sustaining penalties. Sure a mage can have increased reflexes and boosted body and boosted agility and traceless walk via levitate all at the same time, but it takes -8 penalty to every the mage does to do so. That or a heavy nuyen and karma investment in foci.
Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.
Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.
Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.
Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 04:20 PM)
Don't forget the lack of sustaining penalties. Sure a mage can have increased reflexes and boosted body and boosted agility and traceless walk via levitate all at the same time, but it takes -8 penalty to every the mage does to do so. That or a heavy nuyen and karma investment in foci.
Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.
Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.
Don't forget about the 10BP difference in cost. It isn't alot, but it is worth noting. And as Malchi mentioned, the lack of astral signatures being left everywhere is nice.
Also keep in mind the mystic adept, who can literally do everything both a mage and an adept can do.
They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 10:24 AM)
They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.
Oh yeah, forgot about that.
Whilst I can see the OP point there is three things I would add.
1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good
1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 03:24 PM)
They can't astrally project, but that's a pretty niche ability to really need.
That's what "Shade" is for...
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 11:45 AM)
That's what "Shade" is for...
Or being a magically active creature before buying adept.*
(Drake, shapeshifter, vampire, ghoul, etc)
*Well, astral perception, at least. Save yourself a whole PP. Projection is really niche.
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 05:45 PM)
That's what "Shade" is for...
that may not be such a good idea, if you have bno way of going back or finding your way during your stay on the astral plane.@Improved/Increase Reflexes: The spell only improves initiative (score and passes) but the adept power improves REA and IPs. Thus the latter also helps with defending against attacks and driving and not just with acting earlier and more often.
@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?
The problem with dual natured creatures is that they can be attacked from the astral plane all the time. Adepts and magicians can turn this vulnerability off.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2010, 12:12 PM)
@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?
See note which was edited in. I misread.
This thread makes me want to make an adept. 
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Apr 29 2010, 11:30 AM)
Whilst I can see the OP point there is three things I would add.
1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good
1) A adept over time can be very powerful and much cheaper then a mage (+1 PP for initiation Plus the possible increase in magic for another +1PP is pretty powerful in anyone’s book)
2) There is little to no risk of damage to the adept for using their powers (there are exceptions but generally its not a issue)
3) A adepts power is always on as it were and does not require a sustaining focus ( which sticks out like a luminous thumb in the astral) or to be re cast each time they need it once bought its all good
1. Is an optional rule, it should be standard though.
2. True
3. Extended Masking takes care of this for the mage. Some cheesey mages also put a Manascape spell quickened to them to fix it also.
I play a Mystic adept (160 career karma, magic 7), and we are gimpier than an adept for the first 100 karma or so. But the Adept is the weakest path in the long run, IMO.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2010, 04:12 PM)
@Draco18s: Which creature can astrally project without being a magician?
The problem with dual natured creatures is that they can be attacked from the astral plane all the time. Adepts and magicians can turn this vulnerability off.
The problem with dual natured creatures is that they can be attacked from the astral plane all the time. Adepts and magicians can turn this vulnerability off.
There is the one ghoul variety in RC that can project for no good reason.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 04:24 PM)
There is the one ghoul variety in RC that can project for no good reason.
Yeah, the gaki.
The downside is that their sunlight allergy is stronger than that of baseline ghouls, though.
But they are an interesting choice for some concepts nevertheless (and there's always the Alleviate Allergy spell for the tricked out gaki mystic adept).
Regarding the original question, yes, mages are the most versatile characters in the game. By far. If you want to become godlike, go mage. Has always been this way, will always be this way.
However, in addition to things that have already been mentioned, adepts get some very strong metamagic techniqes.
Adept centering and attunement (item) just get stronger and stronger with every initiation. They do not seem impressive at first glance, but at some point, they just take off and leave everything else behind.
In the end, adepts are the ultimate specialists. If they choose to really max out a certain dicepool, they will become absolutely godlike in that area with enough karma.
Imagine what a sniper adept with an attuned rifle and a high initiate grade can do. Without sustaining foci, spirit aid or any other temporary (and therefore, ultimately less worthwhile) boosts. Not even cyberzombies will keep up with that kind of firepower in the long run.
Yes, there's the Enhance Aim spell. Guess what, it's compatible with Attunement. That shit stacks. And it's a dicepool bonus, for all those ambidextrous gunslingers out there.
Damn, at some point, i have to stat out a seal shifter mystic adept sniper and see at what point it can make a maxed out elven catgirl cyberzombie weep with envy.
1) Magicians are powerful. Adepts are powerful. They fulfill different rolls. Mystic Adepts, however, should always be taken in lieu of the other two options.
a) In case the player wishes to play a simpler character than either a street samurai (lots of bookkeeping for implants), hacker (the Matrix, enough said), or Technomancer (a mage by another name), then Adept is very appropriate.
b) Also, even Adepts can benefit from limited amounts of bioware/cyberware.
2) If you do not take any summoning skills and only use the Calling rules from Running Wild, this frees up many, many BP and karma requirements from the Conjuring skillgroup and focuses them into Negotiation and Arcana, two very good skills in their own right.
3) Infected (especially Nosferatu) make playing any sort of Awakened character much more powerful... Especially Mystic Adepts. Being able to easily start with the ability to boost your Magic score to a 10, and less easily an 11, with redefinable Mystic Adept abilities is amazing.
a) Especially considering you chose a Charisma based tradition and too Improved (Charisma) and Improved (Willpower). And Psyche.
a) In case the player wishes to play a simpler character than either a street samurai (lots of bookkeeping for implants), hacker (the Matrix, enough said), or Technomancer (a mage by another name), then Adept is very appropriate.
b) Also, even Adepts can benefit from limited amounts of bioware/cyberware.
2) If you do not take any summoning skills and only use the Calling rules from Running Wild, this frees up many, many BP and karma requirements from the Conjuring skillgroup and focuses them into Negotiation and Arcana, two very good skills in their own right.
3) Infected (especially Nosferatu) make playing any sort of Awakened character much more powerful... Especially Mystic Adepts. Being able to easily start with the ability to boost your Magic score to a 10, and less easily an 11, with redefinable Mystic Adept abilities is amazing.
a) Especially considering you chose a Charisma based tradition and too Improved (Charisma) and Improved (Willpower). And Psyche.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 29 2010, 04:42 PM)
2) If you do not take any summoning skills and only use the Calling rules from Running Wild, this frees up many, many BP and karma requirements from the Conjuring skillgroup and focuses them into Negotiation and Arcana, two very good skills in their own right.
Calling and Offering are awesome. And potentially deadly for the caller. Never deal with a dragon? Damn, never deal with a reaper. Or a huntsman. Or...wait, you'll deal with them anyways.
I wouldn't use them instead of Conjuring, though. But rather in addition to it. And pacts. And pokemancy. And binding free spirits. Oh my god...
QUOTE
a) Especially considering you chose a Charisma based tradition and too Improved (Charisma) and Improved (Willpower). And Psyche.
And red mesc, eX, trance and novacoke. Never mind the hangover (or the penalties to...about any physical action).
Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way? Why play a mundane when a mage is somuch more powerful? Why play a non-troll when trolls are the only race that can actually wear viable armour because their primary soak attribute is so damn high?
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 29 2010, 04:51 PM)
Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way?
Some people prefer hackers that don't die as soon as they get out of their rigger cocoon and into a real fight.
Gets kinda hard to pull that off with a technomancer that can actually outshine a hacker.
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 29 2010, 11:51 AM)
Why play a hacker when a neo clone can outsdo him in every way? Why play a mundane when a mage is somuch more powerful? Why play a non-troll when trolls are the only race that can actually wear viable armour because their primary soak attribute is so damn high?
Aww, you beat me to it. Most specifically: Why play a mundane when an awakened is more powerful, and why play any awakened besides a mage when a mage is more powerful?
Yeah, sure, long run, mages will always come out on top, and even short term they can be really powerful. So why not play a mage? Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 06:05 PM)
Aww, you beat me to it. Most specifically: Why play a mundane when an awakened is more powerful, and why play any awakened besides a mage when a mage is more powerful?
Yeah, sure, long run, mages will always come out on top, and even short term they can be really powerful. So why not play a mage? Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.
Yeah, sure, long run, mages will always come out on top, and even short term they can be really powerful. So why not play a mage? Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.
I realize that, and I don't want this to turn into a discussion about roll playing vs. role playing. I know mages aren't for everyone.
I am looking for things that adepts can do that mages can't. I really can't think of many.
Ah, okay, give me a couple minutes...
QUOTE
Some people prefer hackers that don't die as soon as they get out of their rigger cocoon and into a real fight. Gets kinda hard to pull that off with a technomancer that can actually outshine a hacker.
Kind of where the Adept outshines the mage, too. Of course, the Techno, come Karma and Immersion, can become a terribly effective fighter too, especially if you add selected drugs (or, even better, drug effect BTL, given the Techno is immune to BTL addiction).
My point being: unbalanced as SR4 is, why only go by the numbers?
QUOTE
Well, because this is Shadowrun, not 'Mage, the Stunbolting'. It is a game about RPing and having fun, not having the most powerful character. At least, for most people I think it is.
QFT
We have two adepts.
1. Medical Adept from Heck. "You've only taken 9 boxes, stop acting like a baby"
2. Hyper Perception badhoop. 16 or more dice for Perception or Astral Perception.
What makes them awesome, their powers are always on and have no side effects.
BlueMax
1. Medical Adept from Heck. "You've only taken 9 boxes, stop acting like a baby"
2. Hyper Perception badhoop. 16 or more dice for Perception or Astral Perception.
What makes them awesome, their powers are always on and have no side effects.
BlueMax
Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit anyone?
SCNR
SCNR
Okay, so, some stuff that adepts can do that mages can't necessarily do very well.
Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
Temperature Tolerance
Three-Dimensional Memory
Improved Sense
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Voice Control:
So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.
Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
Temperature Tolerance
Three-Dimensional Memory
Improved Sense
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Voice Control:
So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.
Nice list.
Mystic adepts also don't need sustaining foci - heightened concentration(digital grimoire) can do that for them. Saves karma, and again, less things that can astrally traced back to you.
Mystic adepts also don't need sustaining foci - heightened concentration(digital grimoire) can do that for them. Saves karma, and again, less things that can astrally traced back to you.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 29 2010, 12:28 PM)
Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit anyone?
SCNR
SCNR
So glad I'm not at work or anything while watching this.
"We could do that... or I could just summon a hoard of angels to sort it all out."
Many of the below can be replaced with qualities or spells, or cyber/bio which is mroe efficient than spending power points sometimes:
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 05:33 PM)
Okay, so, some stuff that adepts can do that mages can't necessarily do very well.
Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Quality
Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Quality and martial arts (and cyber/bio)
Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
I guess there's no equivalent, but why would you want to be Berserk?
Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Photographic Memory quality; some nano/geneware helps with memory
Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Quality
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Oxygenate spell
Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Linguistics Quality is better than the adept power (2 karma to have any skill at rating 3 effectively)
Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Nutrition (? or is it sustenance) spell
Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Very low use power, but true
Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
There are lots of spells that can blow holes in things
Temperature Tolerance
Aren't there spirit abilities that protect against elements?
Three-Dimensional Memory
Not sure about this one
Improved Sense
Cyber beats these powers hands down, mage or not
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Dodge/Gymnastics skills is better
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Damage compensators cheaper and better
Voice Control:
Cyber can do this better, but no specific spells I can think of
So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.
Animal Empathy: Mages have control animal, but it isn't the same, especially if you're looking at training your animal
Quality
Blind Fighting: Mages have real trouble when they can't see their targets
Quality and martial arts (and cyber/bio)
Berserk: Not so different from stat boosting powers, but it would take 4 spells and 4 complex actions and 4 sustaining foci to replicate the effect.
I guess there's no equivalent, but why would you want to be Berserk?
Eidetic Sense Memory: Don't think mages have anything like this
Photographic Memory quality; some nano/geneware helps with memory
Flexibility: Once again, no mage spell equivilent
Quality
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell.
Oxygenate spell
Linguistics: Very cool to pick up tons of languages without a karma cost.
Linguistics Quality is better than the adept power (2 karma to have any skill at rating 3 effectively)
Metabolic Control: I think there is a similar spell, but doesn't work on the mage themselves when the go critical
Nutrition (? or is it sustenance) spell
Multitasking: Extra free action, something even a mage can't grab, though it's uses are limited.
Very low use power, but true
Smashing blow: Possible but hard to mimic with spells.
There are lots of spells that can blow holes in things
Temperature Tolerance
Aren't there spirit abilities that protect against elements?
Three-Dimensional Memory
Not sure about this one
Improved Sense
Cyber beats these powers hands down, mage or not
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit.
Dodge/Gymnastics skills is better
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand.
Damage compensators cheaper and better
Voice Control:
Cyber can do this better, but no specific spells I can think of
So yeah, actually quite a few powers that can't be well replicated, and even alot that can be replicated, well, sure, if a mage has about 30 spells they can replicate just about any adept power, but that is alot of spells. I mean, you would need all 8 attribute spells, two combat spells, most or all of the health spells, levitate, mob mind, Improved Reflexes, armor, combat sense, net, and a handful of others. Now granted an adept isn't going to have every power either, but they can get alot of mileage out of those .25 PP powers, and won't need to carry around a backpack full of foci to keep them all up, and can walk through a ward without any cares in the world. Oh, and won't be leaving astral signatures all over the place to be tracked by.
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell. Oxygenate lets you breathe under water. I can't imagine why it wouldn't work in toxic/non-breathable gases
Improved Sense Easily done with a custom detection spell. IIRC there is even one for Thermographic vision in Street Magic. Not such a stretch to invent Ultrasonic hearing.
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit. Deflection and Combat sense work better IIRC
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand. There is.
Improved Sense Easily done with a custom detection spell. IIRC there is even one for Thermographic vision in Street Magic. Not such a stretch to invent Ultrasonic hearing.
Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit. Deflection and Combat sense work better IIRC
Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand. There is.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 01:10 PM)
I am looking for things that adepts can do that mages can't. I really can't think of many.
Adept powers are on all the time and don't have a sustaining penalty, nor do they require an expensive focus.
Analytics and other minor powers that aren't directly duplicatable (and you can get for just having magic, no need to spend 3 BP on a circumstantial spell or get 'ware).
QUOTE (Samoth @ Apr 29 2010, 12:42 PM)
Many of the below can be replaced with qualities or spells, or cyber/bio which is mroe efficient than spending power points sometimes:
Well, now we're getting into a different discussion, and also keep in mind that you could always have both the quality/cyber/bio and the power in most cases. Also keep in mind that there is a limit on qualities/cyber/bio, while power points are theoretically virtually unlimited.
QUOTE
Iron Lungs: Not that impressive, but I think extra held breath time is something that mages don't have, though I could be forgetting a health spell. Oxygenate lets you breathe under water. I can't imagine why it wouldn't work in toxic/non-breathable gases
Yeah, was thinking about that, but thought it did something slightly different for some reason
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Improved Sense Easily done with a custom detection spell. IIRC there is even one for Thermographic vision in Street Magic. Not such a stretch to invent Ultrasonic hearing.
A spell seems somewhat expensive compared to .25 power points though.
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Missile Parry: Not used all that often I admit. Deflection and Combat sense work better IIRC
Maybe, though the effect is somewhat different, as catching the item could be useful.
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Pain Resistance: Might be a similar spell, but I don't remember it off hand. There is.
Oh? Weird, thought there wasn't. Ah well.
Hermit's question of why play a hacker over a Technomancer have been well answered in another thread, he continues to stick his fingers in his ears and lalala in the face of it but that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
Magicians under some interpretations, especially if no distinction is made in what the different magic attributes are used for are unbalanced in fact it's part of why GM's are cautioned against allowing people to play them. As others have pointed out adepts are a lot lower profile astrally and have quite a bit of "always ready" ability to them.
Magicians under some interpretations, especially if no distinction is made in what the different magic attributes are used for are unbalanced in fact it's part of why GM's are cautioned against allowing people to play them. As others have pointed out adepts are a lot lower profile astrally and have quite a bit of "always ready" ability to them.
QUOTE (SaintHax @ Apr 29 2010, 11:24 AM)
1. Is an optional rule, it should be standard though.
2. True
3. Extended Masking takes care of this for the mage. Some cheesey mages also put a Manascape spell quickened to them to fix it also.
I play a Mystic adept (160 career karma, magic 7), and we are gimpier than an adept for the first 100 karma or so. But the Adept is the weakest path in the long run, IMO.
2. True
3. Extended Masking takes care of this for the mage. Some cheesey mages also put a Manascape spell quickened to them to fix it also.
I play a Mystic adept (160 career karma, magic 7), and we are gimpier than an adept for the first 100 karma or so. But the Adept is the weakest path in the long run, IMO.
For 3. It reduces the problems it does not eliminate them. There is a limit to how much you can mask, and even masked as far as I can tell a ward will still bring them down or bring the ward down if the focus is stronger. Which means a lot of dropping and resetting up in secure areas. That may not be an issue for certain never take drain builds though.
Honestly in play adepts seem fine to me. In a super long campaign the mage might start pulling off there tricks. For me the only super broken part of mages is spirits. Outside of them mages rarely will have enough spells and focuses to really do what is being suggested in this thread. i guess my point is there is a difference in having X abilities available from your long list of available abilities and actually having them on a character in play.
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Hermit's question of why play a hacker over a Technomancer have been well answered in another thread, he continues to stick his fingers in his ears and lalala in the face of it but that's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
Way to miss the point I was making, Lurker.
Anyone care to whip up a list of Adept abilities that cannot be replicated through spells/spirits/cyber/bio/qualities? I think it will be a short list, all things considered.
I got your point although I didn't signal my acknowledgement or even agreement with it but then again there is no thematic difference between a magician and an adept or mage when you get to brass tacks.
Most can be replicated, but not many can be replicated with the same effectiveness. Also, Adepts can have way more powers active at the same time than a mage can ever hope to.
And there is a thematic difference between hackers and technomancers ...?
Okay, just so it wasn't misunderstood: my point is 'stop the bitching over petty numbers and play your character, because all this number crunching will get you nowhere'.
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I got your point although I didn't signal my acknowledgement or even agreement with it but then again there is no thematic difference between a magician and an adept or mage when you get to brass tacks.
And there is a thematic difference between hackers and technomancers ...?
Okay, just so it wasn't misunderstood: my point is 'stop the bitching over petty numbers and play your character, because all this number crunching will get you nowhere'.
Why play an Adept?
Just because Bruce Lee und Chuck Norris are both Adepts ... and they are cool as hell, that's why!
Just because Bruce Lee und Chuck Norris are both Adepts ... and they are cool as hell, that's why!
Why play an Adept ? Cause they'll always take the mage down first
I think the real question of the thread is 'Why play a Mundane when both adepts and magicians do it better?'.
That in my mind is the true question facing the setting every time they release a new magic book but the cybertech is more or leass where it was in first editon save a bunch of mage friendly bioware.
Quite a signifigant one actually but I suspect this is not a point i'm going to persuade you of anytime soon.
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And there is a thematic difference between hackers and technomancers ...?
Quite a signifigant one actually but I suspect this is not a point i'm going to persuade you of anytime soon.
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That in my mind is the true question facing the setting every time they release a new magic book but the cybertech is more or leass where it was in first editon save a bunch of mage friendly bioware.
True, though that actually makes sense with the setting, considering Earthdawn would not even allow you to play mundanes because ... how that would suck.
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Quite a signifigant one actually but I suspect this is not a point i'm going to persuade you of anytime soon.
No, you're not, so we best agree to disagree?
I think the obvious answer is: they want to play a ninja/athlete/etc, not a spellcaster.
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 29 2010, 12:10 PM)
I think the real question of the thread is 'Why play a Mundane when both adepts and magicians do it better?'.
If you wanted to make a thread on this, I would be happy to contribute.
My players reached nearly the same conclusion. The only non Adept/Mage/Technomancer is the Fomori Tank.
BlueMax
Adepts can move through Wards with Improved Reflexes etc. "on" while a mage must deactivate his sustaining foci or have to force himself through (in any case triggering alarms).
And how exactly mages as good unarmed combatants as Adepts? Is there a mage can boost his unarmed damage without having to boost his strength (the worst possible way)?
And no Stunbolts and Manabolts are not the same even if they can be used in close combat with no problem. Hmm makes me think there should be some penalty to casting ranged/area spells while in close combat (kinda like with guns).
And how exactly mages as good unarmed combatants as Adepts? Is there a mage can boost his unarmed damage without having to boost his strength (the worst possible way)?
And no Stunbolts and Manabolts are not the same even if they can be used in close combat with no problem. Hmm makes me think there should be some penalty to casting ranged/area spells while in close combat (kinda like with guns).
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 29 2010, 04:03 PM)
And no Stunbolts and Manabolts are not the same even if they can be used in close combat with no problem. Hmm makes me think there should be some penalty to casting ranged/area spells while in close combat (kinda like with guns).
Not identical, but the effect is the same. You've taken down an opponent in melee range, with the added benefit of you could have just as easily done it from a mile away.
I think a lot of the "superiority" of magicians goes out of the window if the enemy has someone with Counterspelling.. Adepts have less problems with that.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 29 2010, 03:27 PM)
I think a lot of the "superiority" of magicians goes out of the window if the enemy has someone with Counterspelling.. Adepts have less problems with that.
Thats full of Win. Though some of my players throw a hissy fit if I have Counterspelling. Let's not even talk about what happens if I drop Mana Static. (Which would be bad for adepts too)
BlueMax
Well, with magic, with a large selection of spells, you can potentially do about anything. As an adept, you're limited to how many magic points you can spend on powers, which is only going to be 6 points (max) to start with and just raising your magic (gaining just two more magic points) to 8 will cost...
10+1*3+7*5+10+2*3+8*5= 104 karma points. If you're playing in Shadowrun Missions, earning the max karma from each adventure, that's 18 adventures, just to raise Magic two points, nothing else. If you're a member of a magic group, with all the stringent things that are included with that, you'll save a whole whopping 5 karma.
As a magician, anything you cast uses your whole magic attribute. Learn a new spell? Cast it with your whole magic. Learn 10 new spells? Cast them all with your whole magic. An adept who picks up a power with a rating can only spend a new point on that power -- none of the rest of the magic rating will apply to that power. For instance, a martial arts phys adept starts the game with 6 magic and buys Improved Reflexes I, Killing Hands and some other things, using up the rest of his power points. It's going to take him 104 karma to be able to get up to Improved Reflexes 3 after character creation, and that was starting already knowing Improved Reflexes I.
Meanwhile, the combat mage (who started not knowing any Increased Reflexes spell) just goes onto the matrix, buys the spell for the low price of 500 nuyen, spends 5 karma and two days and now only needs 4 successes on a Force 4 spell to cast the best version of Increase Reflexes and be getting +3 Initiative, +3 Initiative Passes. If the magician wanted to spend 4,500 nuyen, he could buy a rating 18 instructor so that he could learn the spell in less than a single day. For 48 karma, a magician can initiate and pick up the Quickening metamagic, which basically means his Increased Reflexes spell is "always on", but if he wants to use a Force 4 focus, he can literally have that spell up and running all the time.
Buying spells for a magician is cheap and learning the spell is cheap in karma, far cheaper than initiating and raising the magic attribute that the adept has to do. The magician might never raise his magic attribute and he'll do just fine.
10+1*3+7*5+10+2*3+8*5= 104 karma points. If you're playing in Shadowrun Missions, earning the max karma from each adventure, that's 18 adventures, just to raise Magic two points, nothing else. If you're a member of a magic group, with all the stringent things that are included with that, you'll save a whole whopping 5 karma.
As a magician, anything you cast uses your whole magic attribute. Learn a new spell? Cast it with your whole magic. Learn 10 new spells? Cast them all with your whole magic. An adept who picks up a power with a rating can only spend a new point on that power -- none of the rest of the magic rating will apply to that power. For instance, a martial arts phys adept starts the game with 6 magic and buys Improved Reflexes I, Killing Hands and some other things, using up the rest of his power points. It's going to take him 104 karma to be able to get up to Improved Reflexes 3 after character creation, and that was starting already knowing Improved Reflexes I.
Meanwhile, the combat mage (who started not knowing any Increased Reflexes spell) just goes onto the matrix, buys the spell for the low price of 500 nuyen, spends 5 karma and two days and now only needs 4 successes on a Force 4 spell to cast the best version of Increase Reflexes and be getting +3 Initiative, +3 Initiative Passes. If the magician wanted to spend 4,500 nuyen, he could buy a rating 18 instructor so that he could learn the spell in less than a single day. For 48 karma, a magician can initiate and pick up the Quickening metamagic, which basically means his Increased Reflexes spell is "always on", but if he wants to use a Force 4 focus, he can literally have that spell up and running all the time.
Buying spells for a magician is cheap and learning the spell is cheap in karma, far cheaper than initiating and raising the magic attribute that the adept has to do. The magician might never raise his magic attribute and he'll do just fine.
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