 Laser weapons and penetration |
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 Feb 18 2004, 06:50 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323  |
A few questions regarding laser weapons.
1) Are they assumed to burn through the target's body? They seem perfectly capable of burning through mil grade armor, so I would assume "yes," but I was wondering if anyone had opposing thoughts on the matter. 2) Assuming the answer to question 1 is yes, what reduction in power would result? Subquestions: Would you apply the power reduction effect of armor twice? Should the targets body attribute determine how much power the laser loses by passing through? Suppose, for example, that a corp has set up a mirrored hallway with pressure sensors linked to a firelance laser, such that when the pressure sensors are tripped the laser fires and bounces throughout the hallway. How many times might a person get hit by the laser (assuming the initial firing angle was very slight), and should this require that someone in the hallway make multiple damage resistance tests? Would the laser pose a threat to additional targets farther down the hallway if the first target was a heavily armored troll? |
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Feb 18 2004, 06:54 PM
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#2
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Honestly, I would assume the laser would not burn through a body. I couldn't find any weblinks about it, but the fact that the laser is not a sustained beam would be a clue. Lasers in SR are not BF or FA, implying they are a brief bean, probably onblt 1/10 of a second or so.
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Feb 18 2004, 06:56 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I've never played that a laser burns through a person.
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Feb 18 2004, 06:58 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
I don't think there is really a "rule" for burn through, if I were going to use burn through(which I typically wouldn't) I'd say reduce by armor twice, one on the in and one on the out, as well as reduce laser power by body/2 (I'd say 1/2 because it's soft tissue, more likely to immolate easier than manufactured goods). problem I have with burn through is that the person would have just stand there and let the laser burn clean through, as well as the laser would have to hold out long enough for that to happen. IIRC isn't there overheating rules for lasers? not to mention don't they have limited ammo capacity?
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Feb 18 2004, 06:58 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 11-November 03 Member No.: 5,810 |
The transmition of heat would cause the water in the human body to flashsteam. Resulting in large, explosive wounds. No cauterization or just a burned hole. We're looking at wounds similar to a bullet in the tissue destroyed. Lasers don't just "burn" through.
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Feb 18 2004, 07:00 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 320 Joined: 13-August 02 From: Austin, Republic of Texas (not CAS) Member No.: 3,094 |
I would think the laser is actually cooking the charechter rather than burning through him like a knife... but either is possible... I would say it would take a pretty massive laser to burn through mil-spec armor, a troll and then milspec armor again....
hmmm... the problem is that the firelance laser has no really good modern day equivelant... the only laser weapons I am aware of were for blinding or cooking of missles that were being launched, the cook off was AWACS plane mounted and huge, and it still had to hit the missle for 2-3 seconds before it would cook it off. (I don't think they have built one yet) -Mike R. |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:02 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Is that speculation or is it based on something real? |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:04 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
BitBasher:
My first impression would be to agree with you, but even your basic Ares Redline can easily penetrate heavy hardened military armor and still be very difficult to stage down (TN 7, I believe). It seems to me that a human body would be easier to burn through than hardened military armor, though I may be wrong. |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:09 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
yeah, a body is squishy and should be much easier to slice through than heavy milspec armor. I'd say that using a redline and trying to shoot clean through milspec/troll/milspec is impossible though :P
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ now all we need is Sharks with lasers on their heads [Dr. Evil Pose] |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:17 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I'd say, "No." If you're putting enough energy into a beam that it will... a) Burn through a patch of armor, b) Evaporate tens or hundreds of grams of water while putting a narrow hole through a body, and c) Perform a) and b) in a short enough period of time (~0.1 seconds? preferably less) that the beam does not get wiggled and scribbled all over the target due to attacker and target movement... ...then you've got a beam that will dump it's energy into the target so quickly that there'll be a surface explosion, not a penetrating beam. I think an adequately fast discharge will not give the surface matter (armor and upper layers of flesh) enough time to move (burn/boil/evaporate) out of the way before the beam is done discharging, so the beam energy will just get dumped into a hotter and hotter patch of surface material. Bang! Surface explosion. Quite a focused, intense little explosion that gets through armor pretty easily, apparently. Remotely generated shaped charges even. Longer discharges that would burn through a body would end up scribbled all over the target, and you'd have low penetration (which isn't the case for SR lasers). If you don't want that physics-based interpretation, consider that the base damage of the man-portable lasers in SR is Moderate, which indicates damage less severe than through-and-through penetration. Moderate wounds fall into the "nasty flesh wound" category. This is like a small knife wielded by a strong person: good armor penetration, low flesh penetration (high power, low wound code). If you're successful enough with the Moderate-base attack to change it to Deadly, you probably hit a near-surface vital organ, like the brain, heart, or liver.
Those can't be normal mirrors. Weapon-grade lasers will probably wreck normal mirrors before they reflect much. You'll need those funny-colored specialty optics laser-grade mirrors.
A person would be hit once per emitter. You might manage to split the beam ("beam splitter" mirrors, prisms, whatever) to get multiple attack opportunities per emitter, but each beam would be weaker than normal, and each beam would still only have one attack opportunity. |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:23 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
That makes sense. |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:32 PM
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#12
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
For those of you using a penetration system that's seperate from power (AE?), how do you handle these lasers?
I'm doubting one will EVER show up in my games, but I'm curious. |
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Feb 18 2004, 07:32 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
Can't argue with physics, unless it's shadowrun! :P :rotfl: anyway, I usually agree with physics on things, but it's your game, and if you want a more "Dr. Evil/Movie Magic" kind of laser, then go for the can penetrate and a shaving mirror is enough to reflect it, and it can fire in streams like a flame thrower. otherwise, listen to Cray74 :D
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Feb 18 2004, 07:40 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nor in mine, so I never bothered with rules for it. Sorry. :P |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:04 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 22-October 03 From: Marianna Member No.: 5,753 |
From what i know the human body is a lot more resiliant than a six inch block of steel in some ways. From what i have read the amount of water in the human body actually makes it harder to burn through it with a laser. Im not saying that this is a fact but it is what i have heard.
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Feb 18 2004, 08:09 PM
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#16
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
While I think the "easier to go through 6" of steel than a human body" is probably a crock -
I had heard something along the lines of when you flash-heat tissue so the water explodes out as steam, now you've got a cloud of steam in the beam. That cloud can still absorb energy and mess with beam coherance, same way putting a laser beam through any particulate matter in the air would. I don't know if it would make any real difference with respect to Fictional Death Laser Guns, but maybe. |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:20 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Hmm, I started thinking about the Damage Code for a laser in my games... Assuming there was a surface explosion when the beam hit a (meta)human, how extensive would the damage be? I guess we're looking at skin completely burnt off in a significant area, but how deep would such damage go? Assuming it hit a person in the front of the thigh, what would happen to the thigh bone for example? How deep would the tissue damage extend?
And if there is a layer of body armor present, how would that affect the damage? Would the armor soak the majority of the force in the explosion, or would the beam just go right through the armor and then fuck up the guy inside? My first hunch would be to keep the Damage Codes otherwise as they are (12M/15M/18M for RL/III/HV) but add a Penetration rating of (1/3rd Power). 12M/-4, 15M/-5, 18M/-6. Against Impact as normal. Three minutes. This is it. Ground zero. Would you like to say a few words to mark the occation? |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:22 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yep; that's why continuous-fire lasers don't work too well. Fortunately, a single brief pulse is best anyway, thanks to the wonders of capacitors. Same problem happens with metal, too, I hear; people end up with a little cloud of gaseous steel for a few hundredths of a second that means the process of cutting is slowed. That may or may not be true, though. ~J |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:29 PM
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#19
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Uh shtuh cuh thuk uh uhny. |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:37 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Trust me. Everything's gonna be fine.
You met me at a very strange time in my life. |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:43 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hahah. i'm still not sure if i liked the book's ending or the movie's ending better.
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Feb 18 2004, 08:46 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hm. I can't remember how the book's ending differed from the movie... guess it's time to reread the book.
~J |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:48 PM
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#23
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
[ Spoiler ] Personally I thought the movie ending was much better. Plus it made me think of old-skool shadowrun - Tyler is a neo-anarchist if ever there was one. :) |
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Feb 18 2004, 08:52 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 17-December 03 From: CAS, Houston Member No.: 5,913 |
:D That's why you have those nifty straps on all standard hero slicing tables. "Goldfinger, surely you don't expect me to talk." "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to DIE..." |
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Feb 18 2004, 09:09 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By the by, AE: even if the armor did absorb all the energy, that's still an explosion of some very hot materials right next to the body. Enough to provide some cushioning, but even if the laser itself never directly agitated any part of the target's body, they'd still be taking some nasty damage.
Someone with more direct experience with lasers will probably be better at saying how deep the wound goes, though. ~J |
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