Higher Grade Cyberlimbs and "Accessories" Options

[ClemulusRex]

While the rules clearly state that any piece of 'ware that's of a higher than Standard grade needs to have all of it's accessories purchased at the same grade, I'm still a little fuzzy on what counts as an "accessory" for cyberlimbs.

For instance, in the case of an Alphaware limb, would attribute enhancements and/or customization be considered accessories that would need to be purchased at the higher grade? I'm thinking most likely "yes", but the fact that "accessories" is a different chart from "enhancements" gives me pause. That and I'm generally in favor of anything that gives cyberlimbs a little extra boost/break.

What about largely cosmetic stuff, like casemods? Or anything else that might not normally take up Capacity?

[merashin]

my intepretation of what an accessory is is that is anything that has a capacity cost.

[Karoline]

my intepretation of what an accessory is is that is anything that has a capacity cost.

Seconded. That's how I've always interpreted it, though there is certainly ground for it to be interpreted to include enhancements. I figure the biggest difference is that enhancements don't have any potential to take up essence or capacity, so there is no reason for them to exist in grades. Most things that go into cyberlimbs can go directly into the body, so there is a reason for them to exist in higher grades for people who want X but don't want to replace their arm to get it.

[ClemulusRex]

Seconded. That's how I've always interpreted it, though there is certainly ground for it to be interpreted to include enhancements. I figure the biggest difference is that enhancements don't have any potential to take up essence or capacity, so there is no reason for them to exist in grades. Most things that go into cyberlimbs can go directly into the body, so there is a reason for them to exist in higher grades for people who want X but don't want to replace their arm to get it.

That was sort of my line of reasoning that caused me to bring the issue up.

Just to clarify, then you would say that attribute bonuses from limb customization WOULD NOT need to be considered alphaware price, but the standard capacity-using attribute enhancements WOULD?

[Yerameyahu]

It seems more consistent to simply apply the grade cost multipliers to anything affecting the limb.

[Udoshi]

I've always wondered if stuff like Reponse Chips cost double for an alphaware implanted comm.

[RedFish]

A customized limb's cost is base limb cost + number of attribute boosts times 1500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so I'd say an alpha ware customized limb costs 3000 per attribute boost.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It seems more consistent to simply apply the grade cost multipliers to anything affecting the limb.

Indeed...

Enhancements are an additional cost applied directly to the standard limb... you would multiply the total cost of the limb with all enhancements by the grade level of the limb...

When you purchase an item that has capacity, it also must be of at least equal grade as the limb in question...

So yes, even your strength upgrades or armor or customization/bulk modifications or article inserted into the limb requires you to apply the relevant grade modifier to its cost...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

That was sort of my line of reasoning that caused me to bring the issue up.

Just to clarify, then you would say that attribute bonuses from limb customization WOULD NOT need to be considered alphaware price, but the standard capacity-using attribute enhancements WOULD?

That was my line of thought, but I'm being fairly easily swayed that it should be applied to everything.

I've always wondered if stuff like Reponse Chips cost double for an alphaware implanted comm.

Except this. The alphaware implanted commlink is basically just a space and connection in your head to put a commlink, nothing ever says that the commlink you put in your head has to be any different from the one that you buy off the shelf, and even seems to indicate that you can simply buy one off the shelf and slip it into your head.



You know, I've always found grades for limbs to be one of the odder things. For bioware it totally makes sense that you grow the ware from your own cells instead of just using type O stock ware, and for most cyberware it makes sense in that they make it smaller and more powerful so it does the same job with half the number of chips required and each of those chips is half the size as they were. But for cyberlimbs it never made sense. Your entire arm (or hand or leg or whatever) is always replaced, so no size difference there. You're always going to need to connect the same number of nerves to the limb, so no difference there. So what, somehow making the arm itself sleeker makes it cost less essence? Then I've really never understood how losing an arm costs you no essence, but attaching a cyberlimb costs a ton of it.

Just realized, I suppose the limb has to have some amount of physical anchor in the body, and that could easily be causing the essence loss, and improvements in that anchor should decrease essence cost. Cybertorso should really decrease the essence cost of other cyberlimbs, since they could anchor to the torso instead of the actual meat though.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug*. A smaller (essence) implanted commlink means better materials, just like all 'ware.

Essence is a supernatural quality; losing it isn't because your meat has bolts in it. A cyberlimb is never really a true replacement, so it costs a bunch of Essence. Anything that messes with what's 'you' does.

[Karoline]

*shrug*. A smaller (essence) implanted commlink means better materials, just like all 'ware.

Essence is a supernatural quality; losing it isn't because your meat has bolts in it. A cyberlimb is never really a true replacement, so it costs a bunch of Essence. Anything that messes with what's 'you' does.

I'd be willing to say that having my arm cut off would mess with 'me', and putting a prosthetic there wouldn't make me less 'me' than leaving the arm simply missing. If anything, the prosthetic would seem to put me back closer to 'me' as I at least have something over there where my arm used to be.

All in all, essence is really just a game balance mechanic, not something I should really be thinking of in any kind of 'real' terms.

[Yerameyahu]

A cyberarm is a bit more than a simple prosthetic, but anyway: you're integrating something foreign into your body, nerves and all. And AFAIK, losing limbs *does* cause Essence loss.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A cyberarm is a bit more than a simple prosthetic, but anyway: you're integrating somethings foreign into your body, nerves and all. And AFAIK, losing limbs *does* cause Essence loss.

Actually, Losing Limbs DOES NOT cost Essence, as evidenced by replacement with a clonal arm... no essence is lost in this situation, if you did lose essence, you would never gain it back by a clonal replacement... You only lose essence if you place something foreign back into the body...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Hmm. I could've sworn you could lose essence for any grievous injury, as a separate issue entirely from limb replacements of whatever kind. Oh well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's really not relevant, anyway.

[ClemulusRex]

Indeed...

Enhancements are an additional cost applied directly to the standard limb... you would multiply the total cost of the limb with all enhancements by the grade level of the limb...

When you purchase an item that has capacity, it also must be of at least equal grade as the limb in question...

So yes, even your strength upgrades or armor or customization/bulk modifications or article inserted into the limb requires you to apply the relevant grade modifier to its cost...

Keep the Faith

That was certainly my interpretation of RAI. There just seemed to be enough ambiguity in the RAW for a little rules lawyering--fueled by my above stated prejudice toward making cyberlimbs more useful/affordable.

[Banaticus]

So what, somehow making the arm itself sleeker makes it cost less essence?

There's a Shadowrun developer post somewhere around here where the developer point out some of the more ridiculous aspects of essence and then go on to say that essence is just a game balance tool. More benefit = more cost and that cost might be capacity, a direct essence loss, nuyen, whatever. Essence is purely a game balancing mechanic.

[MADness]

Cyberware grades are about more than component size, though that has a lot to do with. The higher the grade of the tech the more it's customized for the individual. They try to make things balance with an individuals physical form more effectively. When you look at delta grade, for example (I believe it was Cybertechnology that said this) they actually build the device as they operate, connecting everything as they implant it. That doesn't make as much sense when I type it. Dang.

[Yerameyahu]

While it's obviously for balance (… just like every rule), I don't see much trouble with the idea that higher grades are smaller, use better materials, are installed more carefully, are less invasive, etc. Any combination of such factors adequately explains things, and the need for grade-matching with enhancements/accessories is as simple as 'compatibility'.

[Tyro]

While it's obviously for balance (… just like every rule), I don't see much trouble with the idea that higher grades are smaller, use better materials, are installed more carefully, are less invasive, etc. Any combination of such factors adequately explains things, and the need for grade-matching with enhancements/accessories is as simple as 'compatibility'.

I'd actually think that higher-grade cyberlimbs would have MORE space (the rationale for higher-grade components being that there's less space inside higher-grade, presumably smaller 'ware), since the essential components would presumably be made less bulky, while the outer shell would still be limb-sized.

[hobgoblin]

There's a Shadowrun developer post somewhere around here where the developer point out some of the more ridiculous aspects of essence and then go on to say that essence is just a game balance tool. More benefit = more cost and that cost might be capacity, a direct essence loss, nuyen, whatever. Essence is purely a game balancing mechanic.

to bad that there is no mechanic to fork over more cash to get more bang out of a piece of ware, while karma can bring more bang out of magic eternally...

[Yerameyahu]

No, Tyro, my point is that some combination of those reasons explains various 'ware; size makes more sense for the example of the implanted commlink, while invasiveness, materials, or compatibility could be the reasons for limbs.

[RedFish]

I'm still a bit puzzled about implanted commlinks. Don't runner often throw away comlinks to throw someone off their trace? Doesn't that... complicate things with an implant?

[Dumori]

I tend to discard the rule in question though enhancements add to the base cost of the limb so they get multiplyed.

[Tyro]

No, Tyro, my point is that some combination of those reasons explains various 'ware; size makes more sense for the example of the implanted commlink, while invasiveness, materials, or compatibility could be the reasons for limbs.

My point wasn't related to Essence, but rather Capacity - in fact, it's supported by what you just said. Less invasive procedures, better materials (which don't register as quite so foreign to the body as lower-grade 'ware, perhaps), etc. still leave you with a limb with the same surface area & volume regardless of grade, while better materials and higher-tech parts should leave more free space inside to cram goodies into.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, I see. Still, same answer: smaller bits doesn't apply to limbs, so there's no extra capacity. It's a number of different reasons to fit *different* pieces of 'ware. There's no reason that less invasive, higher-quality stuff would also be smaller (although, as I said, it *could* be for some items; limbs aren't one of them).