Pregnant Face, One of my player's character concepts Options

[Yerameyahu]

Psh. Again, *anything* is possible. Have a little imagination.

[svenftw]

No Johnosn would hire her and few runners would run with her. I don't see why it's even worth coming up with rules.

Says who? There are as many different styles of play as there are gaming groups.

I think this character concept is pretty cool, obviously the woman isn't going to be your average doting parent but she's probably tough as nails to keep running the shadows all through her pregnancy.

If it were my game I would try to engineer a scenario wherein the kid is born prematurely during a particularly brutal gunfight. Then maybe for a later campaign the resulting kid could become a character as well. It could turn what would normally be a ridiculous backstory into something that actually happened:

"Shifty was born in the middle of a raging gunfight. Literally."

It can go anywhere from there.

[Karoline]

No Johnosn would hire her and few runners would run with her. I don't see why it's even worth coming up with rules.

The J wouldn't care that much, especially if he thought she was a mage (She is) who will be doing astral instead of physical, could just be there for the legwork, could figure she is a hacker/rigger. I mean hell, a J will hire a paraplegic, I don't see why a J wouldn't hire a pregnant woman.

As for other runners, see the above argument. Plenty of character concepts involve them being blind, paraplegic, quadriplegic, infirmed, deaf, or otherwise the sort that 'no one would ever hire or take on a run' according to conventional modern day wisdom, but in 2072, physical ability is highly overrated with magic, the matrix, and drones everywhere.

[ClemulusRex]

I'm GMing the campaign, and I'm encouraging my player to do it because it will be fun for the player, myself, and the rest of the group. Who cares if it's not realistic?

I agree. Then again, I've already gone on record as being the kind of GM that allowed a character whose backstory was "70-year-old, dementia-ridden retiree wakes up one day with late-blooming PhysAd powers and decides he's a super-hero." He had to sneak out of the rest home at night to go on runs. Not to mention that one of his teammates was a Street Sam who had a skill set that led me to believe he was pre-med before becoming a runner and, despite being crammed full of 'ware and owning a BMW Blitzen, lived at the end of an alley in a cardboard box.

That game was the best 80's/sci-fi/buddy/action/comedy movie EVER.

I just read the IMDB page for this, and it sounds awesome. Adding it to my Netflix queue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It certainly is. Enjoy!

[I Hate All Life]

You know Biffles, you could be really mean to the preggers character by just being true to the SR setting, even without being punitive for her sheer temerity. I'd warn her player first though.

To begin with, make sure your player knows that there are a lot of amoral and straight-up sadistic sons of bitches that populate the SR world that won't give a flying fig that she's pregnant -- or would see the opportunity for a two-for-one kill. And it's worth discussing with your player her (his?) rationale for using her character's unborn child as some sort of shield against consequences (and maybe bonus character points). That gambit may work if you're a really nice GM... but it may fail, and hard if you're a realistic one. I guess this is a sore issue for me because once knew a pregnant woman (we'll call her "M") that picked fights, even slapping people, confident that no one would mess with her. M guessed wrong. Some homegirl whipped M's fucking ass, and she lost her baby. Was this right, did she have it coming? No way, that's not what I'm saying. But M put herself and her unborn child in that situation and both she and it paid a dear price. (It's just as well she didn't have the kid, she was a druggie and didn't take care of the litter she had.) I can't stand people that do stuff like that, and I would probably take a player to task just for proposing such a character for the reasons your player outlined.

Now, as far as using pregnancy as an angle for character development, sure. Swearing off the magic along with the booze and smokes, or not having cybernetics implanted, can seriously cram a runner's style. Prenatal drugs and therapy can help, perhaps she can get a bioware implant designed to protect the child and increase the chances of carrying the child to term. Low-risk hacking is doable, though nothing with bad IC that will fuck her up. She won't be able to contribute much to the group, but her priority should be her baby, even if runs are what's paying her bills. (But that's not what your player is trying to do, at least from what you've said, Bif. Which I'd personally find disappointing.)

And yeah, I think significant drain = miscarriage. Not to mention the possible how having excessive magic coursing through her body might fuck up a child. In a light comic book universe, the result might be a talking superbaby. In the gritty SR universe however, the result can be a child born with severe problems (psychological, physical and spiritual), a mass of tissue and teeth, or stillborn baby along with a tiny but persistent revenant spirit that hates Mommy and/or that tries "nursing" on her Essence. Fun times.

[Karoline]

I think the player was hoping to get a social benefit out of the pregnancy more than a combat sort of one. Either because the person she is dealing with will feel sorry for her, or her state will make them uncomfortable and thus want to wrap things up more quickly or be easier to read.

[Ol' Scratch]

Says who?

If you were out to hire some professional criminals to perform some clandestine operation that meant big things for you or your company, would you hire an obviously pregnant woman (especially one who goes by the name 'Preggers') to sneak into a top secret facility/whatever, perform whatever task you needed done, and get away unseen? Especially if hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of nuyen were on the line? Doubly so when there's tons of other more apt individuals you could hire instead (Shadowrunners are a dime a dozen afterall).

If you were one of those professional criminals and your life would be in the hands of your teammates, would you want one of them to be a pregnant woman with massive mood swings who's only concern would be her baby's safety rather than watching your own back? Would you want one slowing you down as she waddles behind, panting and breathing like a yak? Would you want to deal with the guilt if something did happen to her or her baby because you were so dickish as to bring a pregnant woman along in the first place?

It's a lame ass concept from start to finish. Especially the logic behind it: Some douchenozzle wants to play a pregnant chick with the idiotic name "Preggers" simply because they think that means everyone will give her whatever she wants. That's literally the reason given: "The idea here is that no one will want to deal with a pregnant woman, so they'll just give her what she wants so they can move on with their lives."

There is such a thing as a dumb concept. This is an example of a dumb concept. Not only is the base concept dumb, but there's no way in any semblance of a believable (<-- keyword there: not realisitic, but believable) take of the game world that such a concept would fit in. Even in a pink mohawk game it's idiotic beyond any definition of the word. An 8-year-old street orphan has a better chance of being hired and being welcomed into a group of runners over a pregnant woman. Mage or not.

[Yerameyahu]

Preposterous. There is no limit to what can fit in a pink mohawk game.

[Chance359]

I do remember a story written by Hyzmarca about a pregnant shadowrunner who used her fetus's for blood magic spirits.



And here it is:

Just a little Twisted

[svenftw]

If you were out to hire some professional criminals to perform some clandestine operation that meant big things for you or your company, would you hire an obviously pregnant woman (especially one who goes by the name 'Preggers') to sneak into a top secret facility/whatever, perform whatever task you needed done, and get away unseen? Especially if hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of nuyen were on the line? Doubly so when there's tons of other more apt individuals you could hire instead (Shadowrunners are a dime a dozen afterall).

If you were one of those professional criminals and your life would be in the hands of your teammates, would you want one of them to be a pregnant woman with massive mood swings who's only concern would be her baby's safety rather than watching your own back? Would you want one slowing you down as she waddles behind, panting and breathing like a yak? Would you want to deal with the guilt if something did happen to her or her baby because you were so dickish as to bring a pregnant woman along in the first place?

It's a lame ass concept from start to finish. Especially the logic behind it: Some douchenozzle wants to play a pregnant chick with the idiotic name "Preggers" simply because they think that means everyone will give her whatever she wants. That's literally the reason given: "The idea here is that no one will want to deal with a pregnant woman, so they'll just give her what she wants so they can move on with their lives."

There is such a thing as a dumb concept. This is an example of a dumb concept. Not only is the base concept dumb, but there's no way in any semblance of a believable (<-- keyword there: not realisitic, but believable) take of the game world that such a concept would fit in. Even in a pink mohawk game it's idiotic beyond any definition of the word. An 8-year-old street orphan has a better chance of being hired and being welcomed into a group of runners over a pregnant woman. Mage or not.

So... says you then?

[I Hate All Life]

I think the player was hoping to get a social benefit out of the pregnancy more than a combat sort of one. Either because the person she is dealing with will feel sorry for her, or her state will make them uncomfortable and thus want to wrap things up more quickly or be easier to read.

Even if that's the case, it still fails. Here's why.

1) Not everyone's opinion of pregnant women is charitable, especially in the criminal underbelly where Shadowrunners tend to operate. They may think she's hormonally imbalanced or a some sad case that got knocked up, and just not deal with her (unless she uses magic to force the issue; see below). And I'm with Dr. Funkenstein, who would hire someone that obviously pregnant? What fixer wants to put someone like that in danger, or is willing to come across looking unprofessional by willing to pitch runners that are pregnant? (Mr. Johnson: "Really, this is what you're giving me? Are you that hard up for runners?") Good luck getting work, Juno.

2) So she won't pick fights... so what about fights that pick her? What will she do, waddle run away? To paraphrase Peter Griffin, "Fights in Shadowrun are like sex with Kobe Bryant.. you can kick and scream all you want, but it's gonna happen." Violence is an inevitability among runners. Hope a stray bullet doesn't catch her in the stomach.

3) So she's a face that uses magic, right? What does she do, then... close her eyes and hope really hard the magic and/or drain doesn't affect her baby? Am I alone in thinking this might have bad consequences?

Of course, all this can be handwaved away if Biffles runs the game like some sort of badly written cartoon. But I'm assuming that he wants to remain somewhat true to the gritty Shadowrun setting... perhaps wrongly?

[I Hate All Life]

So... says you then?

And me. And anyone with an understanding of 1) the Shadowrun setting and 2) can attach cause to effect. If you ignore these central elements, fine, it's all good. But the resulting game will have as much in common with Shadowrun as a Disney movie.

Not to say all pregnant runner concepts are stupid; there's potential in that. But the one proposed by the player in question is.

[Yerameyahu]

It takes only the slightest imagination to make this happen. Personally, I think it's a terrible and unfun idea, but I would never have the gall to tell someone it's impossible. It's not like Mages are *that* common. Gritty means that sometimes desperate and suboptimal things happen.

The OP certainly didn't ask if you approved. It was a question about how to rule the penalties.

[svenftw]

And me. And anyone with an understanding of 1) the Shadowrun setting and 2) can attach cause to effect. If you ignore these central elements, fine, it's all good. But the resulting game will have as much in common with Shadowrun as a Disney movie.

Not to say all pregnant runner concepts are stupid; there's potential in that. But the one proposed by the player in question is.

I didn't mean to leave you out. Says you also.

[Ol' Scratch]

The OP certainly didn't ask if you approved. It was a question about how to rule the penalties.

And he didn't ask if you disapproved of those disapproving. Hypocrisy, ain't it grand?

[I Hate All Life]

It takes only the slightest imagination to make this happen. Personally, I think it's a terrible and unfun idea, but I would never have the gall to tell someone it's impossible. It's not like Mages are *that* common. Gritty means that sometimes desperate and suboptimal things happen.

The OP certainly didn't ask if you approved. It was a question about how to rule the penalties.

We're free to express our opinions anyway, right? Right. Some people think it's a silly idea and unworkable unless you ignore a lot of the game (both fluff and rules) and they're free to express that. Being that cause and effect don't meaningfully apply in a universe that accepts this character as a shadowrunner, since there's no realism, no reasonable penalties will be imposed on this character. So discussing penalties is actually moot.

Sure, we have imagination. I can imagine alien spider monkey/centaurs as a SR PC race. Doesn't mean whatever we imagine is a good idea.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what hypocrisy means.

There's simply no reason to say that this (terrible, unfun) idea is impossible. To do so is not expressing an opinion; the opinion is that you wouldn't play/allow it. No one said you couldn't express opinions.

[Karoline]

it's a silly idea and unworkable unless you ignore a lot of the game (both fluff and rules) and they're free to express that.

What SR rule is being ignored? Can you name even one rule that would indicate that it is impossible for someone that is pregnant to run?

That said, I do agree that it is likely a bad concept for a runner that isn't a hacker/rigger, because it is difficult to imagine being this desperate for cash and not simply having an abortion or doing something (prostitution? Anything at all with a lower chance of being gunned down?) less likely to kill the unborn child.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's not what hypocrisy means.

You were expressing disapproval at people for expressing disapproval. That's a textbook example of hypocrisy.

[I Hate All Life]

That's not what hypocrisy means.

There's simply no reason to say that this (terrible, unfun) idea is impossible. To do so is not expressing an opinion; the opinion is that you wouldn't play/allow it. No one said you couldn't express opinions.

Speaking for myself, I never said it was impossible. *points to my above posts* But all that? That would happen. Such a character could be a Shadowrunner, but not a very successful one. She'd find it hard to find work, she's almost certainly miscarry or lose the baby along the way... and her dream of leveraging her pregnancy into some sort of warped advantage would die, like the cold thing now in her womb. But I would warn the player first, and permit the character only if he/she pushed the issue.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, bad things would happen. But that's never been a reason to stop dumb players before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nope, that's not at all hypocrisy. I just reminding what the OP asked.

[I Hate All Life]

What SR rule is being ignored? Can you name even one rule that would indicate that it is impossible for someone that is pregnant to run?

Okay, if you accept that people in the SR universe regard pregnant women like people do now, and have historically, then many people wouldn't take her seriously or would consider her an actual liability. (How many countries allow soldiers/police? How many would hire mercs?) Barring some grand enlightenment not hinted at in the setting, of course. Also, Shadowrun is a dark and gritty setting where misfortune is more likely than a happy ending, and that would include pregnancy. That's the fluff.

Okay, rules time. Is the baby part of the woman's body? If yes, then trauma to the body almost always affects the baby. If this is so, damage taken from drain would count as bodily trauma, correct? If the body suffers damage, so likely does the baby, unless you want to make a special-case exception for just fetuses. I'm not, and so I draw the reasonable conclusion that enough drain = something resembling tomato-based stew leaking out of her uterus. Making a magician that remains pregnant long pretty damned unlikely.

So there is no rule in the rulebook specifically regarding the viability of pregnant runners. Of course, there's no rule specifically saying characters can't fly with the power of their minds. That's where common sense comes in, reading between the lines to arrive at a reasonable conclusion. I actually presented a brief scenario in an above post in which pregnancy can be an interesting angle for a character, so I didn't say it was impossible. But it would be very, very hard. And the OP isn't taking into account a lot of things he should, and worried about stuff that matters less (like how many character points pregnancy might be worth).

That said, I do agree that it is likely a bad concept for a runner that isn't a hacker/rigger, because it is difficult to imagine being this desperate for cash and not simply having an abortion or doing something (prostitution? Anything at all with a lower chance of being gunned down?) less likely to kill the unborn child.

*nods* Kinda my thinking. And even hackers aren't immune. Black Ice can't be good on a fetus, fer instance...

[Karoline]

I actually presented a brief scenario in an above post in which pregnancy can be an interesting angle for a character, so I didn't say it was impossible.

I see where you said it was possible, but I can't find where you presented a scenario, maybe just missing it in the quick reading, which post # was it? I am curious what your idea of a viable pregnant character is.

*nods* Kinda my thinking. And even hackers aren't immune. Black Ice can't be good on a fetus, fer instance...

Just need to not run hot sim and you're immune to Black ICe if I remember right, aren't you? You are right though, it isn't risk free, but it might not even be that risky compared to walking down the street in SR, depending on where you live and especially your metatype.

[I Hate All Life]

I see where you said it was possible, but I can't find where you presented a scenario, maybe just missing it in the quick reading, which post # was it? I am curious what your idea of a viable pregnant character is.

Now, as far as using pregnancy as an angle for character development, sure. Swearing off the magic along with the booze and smokes, or not having cybernetics implanted, can seriously cram a runner's style. Prenatal drugs and therapy can help, perhaps she can get a bioware implant designed to protect the child and increase the chances of carrying the child to term. Low-risk hacking is doable, though nothing with bad IC that will fuck her up. She won't be able to contribute much to the group, but her priority should be her baby, even if runs are what's paying her bills. (But that's not what your player is trying to do, at least from what you've said, Bif. Which I'd personally find disappointing.)

T'was me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not much, and it's more hurdles than concept, but I think it can make for an interesting character twist if done right.

Just need to not run hot sim and you're immune to Black ICe if I remember right, aren't you? You are right though, it isn't risk free, but it might not even be that risky compared to walking down the street in SR, depending on where you live and especially your metatype.

Good point. So hacker/rigger is viable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Probably not Technomancer though because of fading.

[svenftw]

My rule of thumb when I am running a game and a player comes to me with a troubling concept is to think if I've ever seen it in a movie.

Pregnant woman in a firefight? Saw that one in Shoot 'Em Up. I'd allow it if I had confidence that the player wouldn't ruin the game with it.