Pregnant Face, One of my player's character concepts Options

[Method]

And "Way of the Gun".

[svenftw]

Good call. That's one of my favorite movies, I feel shame for not mentioning it.

[ClemulusRex]

To reiterate what I said above: Someone back in the "Why get a Cybertorso" thread from a week or two ago very astutely pointed out that you can play SR like it's the movie "Ronin" or like it's "Escape From New York" and you wouldn't be wrong either way.

The idea that you have to play it straight all the time is preposterous. I think maybe SR players sometimes have this chip on their shoulder because they don't get taken seriously by "real cyberpunk fans" and overcompensate by playing up the "grittiness." As much as I respect Bill Gibson, I could give a devil rat's @$$ if he thinks it's a big joke to have Molly Millions rubbing elbows with John Constantine and Gimli, son of Gloin.

Sure, you can play SR straight-faced and it DOES work. On the other hand, cyberpunk in general is capable of extreme campiness without all the elves and dragons, and a good half of the time I actually LIKE it when my cyberpunk is "The Future of the '80s" turned up to 11. As I posted above, I had a game where right out of the starting gate one or two of my players hijacked the tone into the deep end of John Carpenter "EFNY"/"Big Trouble in Little China" territory, AND IT WAS A BLAST! If Biffles & Co. want to do the same, more power to them.

Again, I say, take "Series 7", mash it up with "EFNY", and add in some trolls and you've got what sounds like Biffles' game. And you know what? It's STILL Shadowrun.

[Karoline]

have Molly Millions rubbing elbows with John Constantine and Gimli, son of Gloin.

Copyright that idea quick before a Hollywood bigwig sees it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[ClemulusRex]

Copyright that idea quick before a Hollywood bigwig sees it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Oh, drek, you're right! If I don't we'll end up with Molly played by Lindsay Lohan, John by...er, Keanu again, and Gimli by Rowan Atkinson.

[svenftw]

I'd watch it anyway.

[Ol' Scratch]

There's a huge difference between believable and realistic. A dwarf rocking a pink mohawk, dressed like a Highlander, and running around with cybernetic hindquarters in the form of a horse with hoverhooves getting hired by a Johnson is far more believable within the context of the setting than a pregnant human woman being hired by a Johnson (or even recommended by a Fixer). There's just some things no one would hire for a job involving the kind of cash or outcome that most runs deal with. Especially not for the reasons the original poster listed.

Seriously. The character's name is Preggers. That means she has a reputation for being pregnant. Who would hire and who would want to work alongside such a character?

Anyone can come up with a ridiculously stupid concept. That doesn't mean it's a valid concept or one that should automatically be acceptable just because players are free to do whatever they want. There's always consequences. Not getting hired and not having anyone want to work with such a HUGE liability is one such consequence. I know that I wouldn't want to go on a run with a pregnant chick, nor would I even remotely consider hiring a pregnant chick for a run if I were a Johnson. I don't care how minor that run is; I want it done and I want it done right. I don't want some woman waddling around worrying more about her child than the objective that I hired her for, especially with the mood swings (which practically everyone recommended earlier in the thread). And doubly so if her reputation for going around flaunting her pregnant status is to simply try and intimidate me into giving her whatever she wants. Seriously. That, alone, is absolutely, irredeemably stupid.

If the concept was actually serious, where the player wanted to explore the difficulties in trying to be a runner while with child (and most likely hiding that fact rather than flaunting it), I'd almost definitely allow it in my games. And I do, in fact, tend to run games closer to the Pink Mohawk than the Uber Boring Professional style of game. But the concept given in the original post? No.

Just... no.

[ClemulusRex]

There's a huge difference between believable and realistic. A dwarf rocking a pink mohawk, dressed like a Highlander, and running around with cybernetic hindquarters in the form of a horse with hoverhooves getting hired by a Johnson is far more believable within the context of the setting than a pregnant human woman being hired by a Johnson (or even recommended by a Fixer). There's just some things no one would hire for a job involving the kind of cash or outcome that most runs deal with. Especially not for the reasons the original poster listed.

Point taken. I do agree that the concept needs a little more thought to it. A rationale for her to be running would go a long way. Sure, prostitution is safer, but maybe the character finds it too distasteful. Maybe there's other extraneous circumstances.

That's largely why I recommended that Biffles and the player sit down and watch "Series 7", as it portrays a pregnant woman up against a wall in a violent, life or death situation. I rushed to the concept's defense because, in my perception, I felt like few of the naysayers had anything constructive to say and/or were getting up on their high horse about how "serious" a SR game should be.

[NetWraith]

To go back to the OP's question... Have you considered treating it like a parasite? I'm sure I will offend some with this and that's ok, I'm a father of three parasites myself and wouldn't trade them for anything.

Consider it a tapeworm like effect that slowly accumulates and fades after the child is hatched.

[Manunancy]

That said, I do agree that it is likely a bad concept for a runner that isn't a hacker/rigger, because it is difficult to imagine being this desperate for cash and not simply having an abortion or doing something (prostitution? Anything at all with a lower chance of being gunned down?) less likely to kill the unborn child.

Or just settling down for a while until the baby's born - as described the idea is 'I'll provide for my unborn child by exposing myself to danger before he's born'.... Not what I would call a sensible reasoning. Logic would dictate that a soon-to-be-mother who wants to take care of her kid will keep away from the most dangerous jobs at least while pregnant. .

Especially considering that a pregnant mage could relatively easily support herself placing and maintaining wards, or acting as a matrix-based face. The sort of runs that pays more are usually of the highly dangerous kind, and simple self-preservation should dictate her to keep away from them for a few months.

[Tomothy]

She is so going to lose that baby.

[Biffles]

Wow. I have to say I didn't think this topic would get this many responses, but I'm glad to see all the discussion. For everyone saying how stupid a pregnant woman would have to be to put herself and her unborn child in this kind of danger, my player stated that this character would have a logic of 1 before even introducing the concept.

I probably could have worded the fluff better, which seems to be the main thing upsetting some of you (especially the "no one will want to deal with a pregnant woman, so they'll just give her what she wants"). She didn't become a face because she got pregnant, and she didn't get pregnant to be a better face. She's just a face who happens to be pregnant. I believe I did mention that she's not gaining any mechanical edge because she's pregnant, and I've also stated that she has the possibility of screwing things up based on something like the Dark Goddess Mentor Spirit. The player is also considering taking the Borrowed Time quality, and having the mother die whenever she does have the baby.

While it is true that I didn't ask for disapproval, some of it has really made me laugh, particularly Dr. Funkenstein's post #32.

Thanks for the encouragement, ClemulusRex! Series 7 should be arriving next week.

[RedFish]

Wow. I have to say I didn't think this topic would get this many responses, but I'm glad to see all the discussion. For everyone saying how stupid a pregnant woman would have to be to put herself and her unborn child in this kind of danger, my player stated that this character would have a logic of 1 before even introducing the concept.

So she's a retarded, pregnant woman who makes a living by talking to people...

This is... this is so... I don't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[Method]

This is... this is so... I don't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

That about sums it up.

[Udoshi]

This is a most amusing concept, but... what are you going to do once there kid's born? There goes your gimmic.

The character's already a Magician. Isn't something like this right up Physical Mask's alley? I mean. Just sayin.

[I Hate All Life]

To reiterate what I said above: Someone back in the "Why get a Cybertorso" thread from a week or two ago very astutely pointed out that you can play SR like it's the movie "Ronin" or like it's "Escape From New York" and you wouldn't be wrong either way.

The idea that you have to play it straight all the time is preposterous. I think maybe SR players sometimes have this chip on their shoulder because they don't get taken seriously by "real cyberpunk fans" and overcompensate by playing up the "grittiness." As much as I respect Bill Gibson, I could give a devil rat's @$$ if he thinks it's a big joke to have Molly Millions rubbing elbows with John Constantine and Gimli, son of Gloin.

Sure, you can play SR straight-faced and it DOES work. On the other hand, cyberpunk in general is capable of extreme campiness without all the elves and dragons, and a good half of the time I actually LIKE it when my cyberpunk is "The Future of the '80s" turned up to 11. As I posted above, I had a game where right out of the starting gate one or two of my players hijacked the tone into the deep end of John Carpenter "EFNY"/"Big Trouble in Little China" territory, AND IT WAS A BLAST! If Biffles & Co. want to do the same, more power to them.

Again, I say, take "Series 7", mash it up with "EFNY", and add in some trolls and you've got what sounds like Biffles' game. And you know what? It's STILL Shadowrun.

I feel the need to reply to this, and not in a smarmy you're-being-corrected way. But I'm not saying SR has to be played "straight." If it seems like I said that, let me clarify.

Okay, the original World of Darkness is my favorite game setting (or settings, depending how you look at it), but it's an example of a setting that takes itself seriously. Not that there isn't humor in the oWoD games, but the themes of those games almost always include some sort of horror (personal and external) or internal conflict. And to appreciate those game as they're written, you kinda have to immerse yourself in that and create that dark atmosphere. They should be played more-or-less straight. I'm not saying everyone plays this way, or they absolutely must; I know a lot of people play WoD dumb by ignoring the games' themes and common sense (throwing Shifters, vampires, Fallen and mages together into a crossover teamup to take on the eeeevil Pentex-Sabbat-Technocracy union, like some badly written superhero game). But I am saying if you're attempting to capture the intent of those games you have to take them seriously to some extent; if you don't, you're kinda missing the point and should probably be playing something else. (There are other games with serious themes, but I'm using WoD as a frame of reference because it's what I know best.)

Shadowrun, however, doesn't take itself nearly as seriously. The elements and even the writing style is often tongue-in-cheek. And I like that. It's good to get away from the oppressive darkness and grim thematics of WoD and just go nuts with a Kung-Fu cyber-ork, palling around with an elf mage straight from Tolkein and a geeky human hacker kid with a Goblin Rock fixation. These characters all fit seamlessly together in SR with no suspension of disbelief at all. That's just Shadowrun. There are serious elements to be sure, and not all of it is over-the-top camp. And it's a good idea to pay some heed to those aspects of SR; not much funny being possessed by an insect-spirit, gnawed on by a ghoul, or seeing your friend's head blown off. But the gravity of the setting isn't oppressive and overwhelming, and I wouldn't try to impose that brand of seriousness into my SR games. Just like SR's unique brand of action-movie fare + sci-fi tech + high fantasy magical awesomeness doesn't really fit in Vampire, I wouldn't try to force Vampire's dismal internal conflict onto a free-spirited elf bike-rigger. SR is a fun game, light at heart, and it should be played in that spirit.

That being said, I do respect SR's setting and themes enough not to play it just silly. There's a difference between being campy and being cartoony, stupid and vulgar. That's my objection to Preggers, which is the latter. (I like Family Guy, which is also cartoony, stupid and vulgar, but I wouldn't run a game around it.) But if that's the sort of lowbrow game Biffles is running, where a bad pregnant woman cliche' with an IQ maybe in the low 80s can actually succeed as a runner, then good for him; maybe he can fit some ethnic/racial stereotypes in there as well, like an Arab that blows things up, based on Jeff Dunham's puppet... or a black character with a grill and maxed out Athletics (for B-ball and dancin' boyee!) and not much else. (Hey, if one offensive stereotype is okay, then all of them should be!) I initially replied with the assumption that Biff's game would have some degree of realism and thematic gravity, and where cause and effect would actually apply. But if the game is just a bad joke, then pretty much anything goes, right?

[LurkerOutThere]

Good: Building a character concept around a pregnant woman who needs to run the shadows.

Bad: Building a rep around being a pregnant woman who runs the shadows.


As others stated theres a place in shadowrun for a lot of things, but there's certain circles that Pink Mohawk works for and certain circles that icecold pro works for, and some cross over between. I'm not sure if a pregnant retard face magician has a place in either circle.

[Biffles]

I feel the need to reply to this, and not in a smarmy you're-being-corrected way. But I'm not saying SR has to be played "straight." If it seems like I said that, let me clarify.

Okay, the original World of Darkness is my favorite game setting (or settings, depending how you look at it), but it's an example of a setting that takes itself seriously. Not that there isn't humor in the oWoD games, but the themes of those games almost always include some sort of horror (personal and external) or internal conflict. And to appreciate those game as they're written, you kinda have to immerse yourself in that and create that dark atmosphere. They should be played more-or-less straight. I'm not saying everyone plays this way, or they absolutely must; I know a lot of people play WoD dumb by ignoring the games' themes and common sense (throwing Shifters, vampires, Fallen and mages together into a crossover teamup to take on the eeeevil Pentex-Sabbat-Technocracy union, like some badly written superhero game). But I am saying if you're attempting to capture the intent of those games you have to take them seriously to some extent; if you don't, you're kinda missing the point and should probably be playing something else. (There are other games with serious themes, but I'm using WoD as a frame of reference because it's what I know best.)

Shadowrun, however, doesn't take itself nearly as seriously. The elements and even the writing style is often tongue-in-cheek. And I like that. It's good to get away from the oppressive darkness and grim thematics of WoD and just go nuts with a Kung-Fu cyber-ork, palling around with an elf mage straight from Tolkein and a geeky human hacker kid with a Goblin Rock fixation. These characters all fit seamlessly together in SR with no suspension of disbelief at all. That's just Shadowrun. There are serious elements to be sure, and not all of it is over-the-top camp. And it's a good idea to pay some heed to those aspects of SR; not much funny being possessed by an insect-spirit, gnawed on by a ghoul, or seeing your friend's head blown off. But the gravity of the setting isn't oppressive and overwhelming, and I wouldn't try to impose that brand of seriousness into my SR games. Just like SR's unique brand of action-movie fare + sci-fi tech + high fantasy magical awesomeness doesn't really fit in Vampire, I wouldn't try to force Vampire's dismal internal conflict onto a free-spirited elf bike-rigger. SR is a fun game, light at heart, and it should be played in that spirit.

That being said, I do respect SR's setting and themes enough not to play it just silly. There's a difference between being campy and being cartoony, stupid and vulgar. That's my objection to Preggers, which is the latter. (I like Family Guy, which is also cartoony, stupid and vulgar, but I wouldn't run a game around it.) But if that's the sort of lowbrow game Biffles is running, where a bad pregnant woman cliche' with an IQ maybe in the low 80s can actually succeed as a runner, then good for him; maybe he can fit some ethnic/racial stereotypes in there as well, like an Arab that blows things up, based on Jeff Dunham's puppet... or a black character with a grill and maxed out Athletics (for B-ball and dancin' boyee!) and not much else. (Hey, if one offensive stereotype is okay, then all of them should be!) I initially replied with the assumption that Biff's game would have some degree of realism and thematic gravity, and where cause and effect would actually apply. But if the game is just a bad joke, then pretty much anything goes, right?

I get that you think my group is taking things too far from playing Shadowrun "straight", but you sound more morally opposed to me allowing this character in my game than just providing your opinion. Yeah, a moody pregnant woman is a stereotype. There's a woman in our group, and she even helped come up with the character concept. I've been playing with this group for a while, and there's a certain level of comfort. If everyone's okay with it, what's the problem? This is a game among friends. It's not like we're showing up at a con with the intent of offending everyone we play with. However, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable running the other, much more offensive stereotypes that you brought up in your post.

On the idea that everyone in the game world will just be okay with the character being pregnant, that's not what I'm saying. Of course there's going to be consequences or I wouldn't have asked about drain in the first place.

The guy who created this character was actually trying to avoid falling into the typical social character he likes to play, which was what he originally came up with. The woman in our group had originally used her same backstory of being an orphan, and they both ended up calling each other out on playing the same old character. So the guy came up with a twist, and the woman made her character with a huge family and tons of friends, so many that you don't know just how big her family really is. Sure, one's more feasible than the other, but they both sound fun to play. And if they aren't? We'll find out and roll more characters. I'm not sure why you're getting so upset that we're not playing Shadowrun the "right" way. I enjoy the setting, and I think it's fun to play. I also think it's fun to not limit your game when you're just playing to have fun.

[ClemulusRex]

I feel the need to reply to this, and not in a smarmy you're-being-corrected way. But I'm not saying SR has to be played "straight." If it seems like I said that, let me clarify.

Okay, the original World of Darkness is my favorite game setting (or settings, depending how you look at it), but it's an example of a setting that takes itself seriously. Not that there isn't humor in the oWoD games, but the themes of those games almost always include some sort of horror (personal and external) or internal conflict. And to appreciate those game as they're written, you kinda have to immerse yourself in that and create that dark atmosphere. They should be played more-or-less straight. I'm not saying everyone plays this way, or they absolutely must; I know a lot of people play WoD dumb by ignoring the games' themes and common sense (throwing Shifters, vampires, Fallen and mages together into a crossover teamup to take on the eeeevil Pentex-Sabbat-Technocracy union, like some badly written superhero game). But I am saying if you're attempting to capture the intent of those games you have to take them seriously to some extent; if you don't, you're kinda missing the point and should probably be playing something else. (There are other games with serious themes, but I'm using WoD as a frame of reference because it's what I know best.)

Shadowrun, however, doesn't take itself nearly as seriously. The elements and even the writing style is often tongue-in-cheek. And I like that. It's good to get away from the oppressive darkness and grim thematics of WoD and just go nuts with a Kung-Fu cyber-ork, palling around with an elf mage straight from Tolkein and a geeky human hacker kid with a Goblin Rock fixation. These characters all fit seamlessly together in SR with no suspension of disbelief at all. That's just Shadowrun. There are serious elements to be sure, and not all of it is over-the-top camp. And it's a good idea to pay some heed to those aspects of SR; not much funny being possessed by an insect-spirit, gnawed on by a ghoul, or seeing your friend's head blown off. But the gravity of the setting isn't oppressive and overwhelming, and I wouldn't try to impose that brand of seriousness into my SR games. Just like SR's unique brand of action-movie fare + sci-fi tech + high fantasy magical awesomeness doesn't really fit in Vampire, I wouldn't try to force Vampire's dismal internal conflict onto a free-spirited elf bike-rigger. SR is a fun game, light at heart, and it should be played in that spirit.

That being said, I do respect SR's setting and themes enough not to play it just silly. There's a difference between being campy and being cartoony, stupid and vulgar. That's my objection to Preggers, which is the latter. (I like Family Guy, which is also cartoony, stupid and vulgar, but I wouldn't run a game around it.) But if that's the sort of lowbrow game Biffles is running, where a bad pregnant woman cliche' with an IQ maybe in the low 80s can actually succeed as a runner, then good for him; maybe he can fit some ethnic/racial stereotypes in there as well, like an Arab that blows things up, based on Jeff Dunham's puppet... or a black character with a grill and maxed out Athletics (for B-ball and dancin' boyee!) and not much else. (Hey, if one offensive stereotype is okay, then all of them should be!) I initially replied with the assumption that Biff's game would have some degree of realism and thematic gravity, and where cause and effect would actually apply. But if the game is just a bad joke, then pretty much anything goes, right?

I, too, am a HUGE fan of oWoD, and HATED it when a Looney Tunes-style Malkavian broke up my Brujah's brooding inner monologue. When you put it that way, it gives me some perspective and sympathy for where you're coming from.

That said, I'm not sure you wouldn't have been offended by my friend's "rest home martial artist adept" in a Big Trouble in Little China-style game. Maybe I just think that SR has a bit more leeway in its thematics than WoD. Mind you, I wouldn't want to run or play in that same style of SR game all the time (though my sympathies are definitely more toward the "pink mohawk" end of things) but when my player hit me over the head with the campy, tongue-in-cheek pulp hero, I relented and rather enjoyed it. Part of that was just realizing that most of my players were inclined toward goofy antics no matter what game we were playing and just rolling with that.

I admit, for my part I think I was seeing the potential in the "pregnant face" concept rather than paying close enough attention to what Biffles' player was actually presenting. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction was as incredulous as most other people's. But then I saw everyone responding negatively and remembered a movie where I had seen a similar concept done well, and decided to play a little devil's advocate. Truth be told, the more Biffles has elaborated on the player's concept, the less impressed I am (Logic 1?) I do contend that with the right balance of desperation and camp, the concept could work. What I saw was a lot of people saying "Nevereverevereverever!" and felt a need to refute that.

[I Hate All Life]

@ Biffle: I'm not trying to be too hard on you. Yes, I can be opinionated, and I'll admit that the Preggers character concept offends me somewhat. I'm glad you found my two stereotype characters offensive -- I did. Though I'm not sure why they offend you so much more than the knocked-up bimbo does, which is several offensive stereotypes about women rolled into one. Women are too often ridiculed as less intelligent, prone to hormone-induced mood swings rendering them incapable of rational thought, and inherently weak -- sounds like your player's proposed character to me. Not to go on a feminist tirade or anything, but if you look at it from a certain perspective, Preggers is every bit as offensive as what I came up with.

The point of gaming is to have fun, of course. People have different definitions and standards of what that is. But when I get offended, I tend to mouth off; my brain-typing fingers filter is degrades. So I'm not preaching at you or being sanctimonious, just trying to explain where I'm coming from so I don't seem like some asshole randomly attacking people. Despite my moniker, that's not who I am or how I wanna come across.

@ Clemulus: Nice to have a fellow WoDer here. (Wanna see my WoD fan page sometime?) And I'm glad you can see my perspective on this. No, Shadowrun doesn't have the atmospheric gravity that the WoD does, and it shouldn't. But I do tend to invest in the games I love, and so I probably take what thematic integrity SR does have more seriously than you or many others do: while you may lean more toward pink mohawks, I dig the grit and corporate espionage and desperation. Not that I can't enjoy pure camp and hilarity at times, of course. I'm not that uptight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yeah, I understand the Devil's Advocate urge, especially if you felt Biffles was being teamed up on. Which I suppose he was, come to think of it.

[pbangarth]

I'm sorry, I haven't read this thread, but just seeing the title, I thought, "Man, that's one nasty ectopic pregnancy!"

[Banaticus]

I think maybe SR players sometimes have this chip on their shoulder because they don't get taken seriously by "real cyberpunk fans" and overcompensate by playing up the "grittiness."

Woah, what do you mean real cyberpunk fans? We are the real cyberpunk fans. Sheesh.

[ClemulusRex]

Woah, what do you mean real cyberpunk fans? We are the real cyberpunk fans. Sheesh.

That's what I meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Or did you get that? Sorry, but my "Detect Irony" spell doesn't seem to be working right now.

[ClemulusRex]

@ Clemulus: Nice to have a fellow WoDer here. (Wanna see my WoD fan page sometime?) And I'm glad you can see my perspective on this. No, Shadowrun doesn't have the atmospheric gravity that the WoD does, and it shouldn't. But I do tend to invest in the games I love, and so I probably take what thematic integrity SR does have more seriously than you or many others do: while you may lean more toward pink mohawks, I dig the grit and corporate espionage and desperation. Not that I can't enjoy pure camp and hilarity at times, of course. I'm not that uptight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yeah, I understand the Devil's Advocate urge, especially if you felt Biffles was being teamed up on. Which I suppose he was, come to think of it.

Glad to be here, and sure, send me a link. I'd be surprised if WoD fans were a rarity here, as I see it and SR as going together like peas and carrots. Different tone, sometimes, but they have a lot in common. In fact, I once speculated to a friend of mine that you could play SR as the future (soon to be the present) of the WoD, where the Awakening was the result of the reality wars ending in a stalemate.

It's sad because I never really get to play either game. None of my friends currently in the area are really in to the WoD ennui and gravitas, and SR is a little too involved mechanics-wise for some of them (not to mention that I'd be stuck GMing.) *Sigh*

Well, I'm glad we're all friends, again! Another flame-war averted! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously, you were right. I guess I did feel like Biffles was getting teamed up on a bit unfairly. Come to think of it, did anyone actually answer his question to his satisfaction?

[Yerameyahu]

I thought inventing a custom disease was the best answer, instead of a Negative Quality.