 Bug Spirits and DNA, Do they change it? |
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 Feb 19 2004, 02:54 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 6-February 03 Member No.: 4,020  |
Okay, when a bug spirit infests a host (either good or bad merge), does it change the DNA or Astral DNA of its host body?
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Feb 19 2004, 04:09 PM
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#2
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
It's been a while since I read or had anything to do with the UB storyline. My guess is that is does not, no more-so than possession does.
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Feb 19 2004, 04:12 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 1-April 03 From: DFW, Texas Member No.: 4,362 |
I would suspect they do; the host body exhibits radical changes physiologically.
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Feb 19 2004, 04:35 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I would certainly say they do change it. True forms obviously don't because they emerge as fully fledge spirits which I would imagine don't have DNA!
Flesh forms though, as Steel Eyes said, exhibit such strong irreversible physiological effects that their DNA really has to change to some extent. What extent is unclear though. They may still be identifiable as the host if analysis was done, depending on the extent of the changes, or they might only be identifiable as 'was once a troll' or 'a dog' etc. Its really a GM call. Its magic so just about anything is possible. Its not like a normal possession remember - its permanent and irreversible. Even if you banish the spirit the person the carcass used to belong to is gone forever. |
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Feb 19 2004, 04:38 PM
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#5
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Wow, never knew that. Will definitely have to remember that for later...
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Feb 19 2004, 04:44 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Jacksonville, NC Member No.: 568 |
It sounds as if someone is thinkin of cloning some of those "changed" beings... Well at least i am Ala Aliens Ressurection
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Feb 19 2004, 04:45 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
I didn't know you could use non-sentient beings as bug spirit hosts. That makes things a lot more dangerous, since it could take quite a while before people start noticing a bunch of stray missing. |
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Feb 19 2004, 04:52 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Threats 2 details this, but it IS there in the bug rules in MITS. P128, Summoning Insect Spirits, para 2, sentence 2:
'This (host) body is usually that of a metahuman, but in a pinch other bodies, such as animals and paracritters, will serve as well' Threats 2 talks of a certain corporation-who-should-know-better's efforts to breed and control bug hives, using things like hellhounds and other nastiness. I'm guessing they use metahumans (like trolls, which is REALLY nasty) in preference because a good merge can infiltrate human society and gather more hosts more easily than an animal can. For soldiers though, animals make more sense - they're generally faster and have built in weaponry for a start off. |
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Feb 19 2004, 04:58 PM
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#9
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Heh, a corp that should know better. Ya know, SR would have a lot fewer issues if the powers that be would sit down and watch some old flat vid sci-fi horror and take it to heart.
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Feb 19 2004, 05:12 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
A quickened Transform spell also produces major permanent physiological changes. Would you say that said spell alters the subject's DNA? I wouldn't, for the same reason I don't need to know the precise chemical reaction that changes organic tissue into limestone when the petrify spell is cast -- there isn't one. Its just magic. The irreversibility in this case is the result of a "merge" between the host's essence and that of the insect spirit. Oh, and if the DNA *were* altered/clonable I'm sure Ares would have figured that out *really* quickly. |
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Feb 19 2004, 05:29 PM
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#11
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
I'd look at it as the process of merging acts much like permanently sustaining a spell on the host that is responsible for the changes. For much the same reason I'd think Control Emotions doesn't directly stimulate seratonin/dopamine levels in the brain; it just Controls their Emotions.
I think magic follows different laws, and in the SR world, we're not so clear yet on what they are. |
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Feb 19 2004, 05:37 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I did allow for the fact that its magic, so anythings possible, including both changing and NOT changing the DNA. But a being which had a quickened transform spell on them would show as human under DNA analysis because as soon as its seperated from the main body it will revert back to human flesh. If you could check DNA without taking a sample - which is impossible as far as I know. To run it through a machine requires the dna being analysed is seperated from the cell its from, never mind the being itself! - then I might well rule that the DNA was changed. Its a physical spell. It literally changes the subject. But that's by the by. The point I was making is that its a GM call. I was more suggesting reasons why you could justify to your players why (or why not) the DNA was changed.
I'm talking about a specific corp, who really should know better. I'm just trying (and probably failing) to not give the game away to people (or players) who might not have the threats 2 books, is all. I mean yeah, I agree with what you're saying, I just wanted to make clear I'm not being all that naive - of COURSE you wouldn't be surprised to learn of a corp doing this kind of thing. Its just a bit odd in this case. |
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Feb 19 2004, 05:38 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
I just had a nasty thought :vegm: imagine what would happen if bug spirits managed to take over one of those Doc Wagon Cloning facilities :vegm: if I remember correctly, bug spirits can be really intelligent, wonder if they could make the facility continue to spew out clones for conversion. Anyone know if a clone merge would work well? I've got evil plans for my players :vegm:
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Feb 19 2004, 05:43 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I see no reason why not, depending on whether or not you buy the official line about it being 'impossible' to create a viable human clone. If they aren't mentally viable, its probably not possible for the bug to possess them. i base this assumption on the fact that you can get a good merge which possess the abilities and knowledge of the original (which answers your other question - can they run a cloning facility? sure, if they good merge one of the medicos). If you can get a good merge, it stands to reason that they use the mind of the host as well. Without that mind, there may be nothing suitable astrally to 'get hold' of. note - I don't mean NOTHING astrally, just maybe nothing suitable.
Edit: Personally, I'd say why not have them take over the city pound? They can round up strays and host them, using the good merges (ex pound employees) to seek out new prey. you can increase your chances of getting a good merge by sustaining an increased willpower spell on your victim when you incubate them, giving them additional successes (more successes the better for a good merge remember) thereby reducing the number of people who go 'missing' which raises suspicions, and you'll have yourself an army of host bodies in a few weeks and no-one will have noticed except for the lack of wild dog packs in rougher areas, which people will actually be HAPPY about. Good Gawd, I'm evil. |
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Feb 19 2004, 05:44 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
I'd agree with the "doesn't change the DNA" camp, but it seems like a GM judgment call to me.
Ugh, the Doc Wagon cloning idea needs to be kept on the down-low. Don't want anyone getting any good ideas, heh. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:02 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 1-April 03 From: DFW, Texas Member No.: 4,362 |
I'd say that a Transform spell temporarily supercedes / creates an 'overlay' to the subject's base DNA, which is in effect and prevents the base DNA from reasserting itself as long as the spell is in effect.
Rendering it permanent via Quickening renders the overlay permanent, but the core DNA is still there, and would reassert if the spell ever goes away. A DNA scan performed on such a character would reveal two sets of DNAs, much like Astral Perception would reveal both the presence of the spell, and the Transformed subject's aura. Now, a merge with a Bug and a host...that results in a completely unalterable change to the host's physiology: it can't change back. And removal of the Bug spirit (by whatever means) doesn't result in the host changing back to it's original physiology; the merged host will retain it's new appearance, even after death (when presumably the Bug is completely gone). By this logic, a DNA scanner would read and document only the new, Bug changed DNA. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:06 PM
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#17
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Whoa. So you're saying, I Transform someone into a whale, and the spell changes their DNA and then the body changes to follow suit? Or the spell changes their body, which includes new DNA as a subset of that? |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:08 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
well there certainly are a lot of clones if you read Man and Machine, when you purchase a Doc Wagon Platinum they always keep 1 full clone of you, so you don't have to wait forever for cloned parts, they just lop it off of your clone in their "holding" facility. I imagine the holding facility just keeps these full clones in conditions barely suitable for human life, and in fact I've run a campaign where my party released the clones from a facility, it was funny, especially when they met their own clones. I ruled they had child-like minds. Half the party killed their own clones. so going with the M&M book saying that clones exist, I'm just wondering if anyone has some solid info on how merges happen and what's required to get a good merge. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:10 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
meanies. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:16 PM
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#20
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Had a sammeit aht wanted to go mage.. I had considered making him play his doc-wagon clone instead, since there is no rule basis for learning magic from scratch.
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Feb 19 2004, 06:27 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 1-April 03 From: DFW, Texas Member No.: 4,362 |
Hmmm...is that legal? I dunno, don't have the Transform rules in front of me. Nah, what I'm saying hypothetically is -- by my own logic, granted -- the whale's DNA 'masks' the character's base DNA and therefore tricks the body into spontaneously mutating into the whale (the connection between the Aura and DNA is subverted by the 'mask'/overlay...the Aura still reflects a person...but the physical body is more interested in what the DNA says, and what the overlay says is the subject is and always has been a whale! :D ). The original DNA is still there, just 'masked' by the 'whale DNA'. Once the Transform spell expires, the body spontaneously changes back to the original shape. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:29 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
When you're a professional shadowrunner, and you know the escape of your clone could get you in trouble that you didn't even cause, damn skippy you kill your clone :P especially when the GM is as evil as I :vegm: the other half is paying upkeep costs to nannies and tutors to educate and babysit their clones, raising them like their own kids :P I love it. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:44 PM
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#23
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
That's what I thought you were saying. Problem is, "spontaneous mutation" is mad wack. DNA -> RNA -> Protein is a non-quick process. If Transform worked that way, I'd think the time for it to take effect (after casting - and if it worked AT ALL which I'd doubt) would be days to months. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:45 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
How I like the World of Darkness, Mage: the Ascension way of doing things so much better.
DNA is simply a Technocracy "construct" used to explain to the sleepers, and themselves how life forms develop and inherit trains from their parents. In reality, there is no DNA. The results of life magic on a subject's "DNA" is dependent on what the observer expects to see. If a person were untouched by collective unconscious construct perpetrated by the Technocracy and believes something else makes up the physicality of a living being, then they would see no DNA. If a person was ingrained to DNA believe construct to the point they cannot accept a physicality drastically different then what the DNA coding should dictate, they would see a merged or highly unusual DNA, and likely suspect some sort of breeding, genetic engineering, or nanite reconstruction process has taken place. And like the theory Schrödinger's cat, such observations would likely influence future observation. It makes questions like these (and the weird invisibility debates) so much easier. Yeah, I know it doesn't really help to answer the question directly, or maybe it does. This gets into the metaphysics and underlying philosophy of the Shadowrun world, especially if you include the Earthdawn crossover information in with it. Where does life come from? How did it develop? What influence does genetics have on magic or magic have on genetics? Can magical effects and enchantments be inherited (a la the elves of Blood Wood)? What happens to those effects when the mana level drops? What happens when they come back? How can creatures with out a genetic code or that even are not organic reproduce? How come so many different "styles" of magic co-exist? Are the "rules" of magic actually subjective? If so, how did they develop so quickly in the 6th age? Who came up with them? If the rules of magic are subjective and mutable to some degree, then what about technology? Where does not draw the line between technology and magic, especially when one can create a sustaining focus or quicken a spell on an object that does the same thing as a technological one? Okay, now I know I'm going on a huge tangent here. So I'll leave it at that. |
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Feb 19 2004, 06:48 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568 |
spontaneous change of DNA would cause a spontaneous change in person, a la goblinization of humans, if the sudden activation of dna would cause a regular human to grow horns and tusks in seconds and become a troll, then I don't see why DNA overlay wouldn't explain the drastic change in metahumans by the insect merge.
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