Okay, when a bug spirit infests a host (either good or bad merge), does it change the DNA or Astral DNA of its host body?

It's been a while since I read or had anything to do with the UB storyline. My guess is that is does not, no more-so than possession does.

I would suspect they do; the host body exhibits radical changes physiologically.

I would certainly say they do change it. True forms obviously don't because they emerge as fully fledge spirits which I would imagine don't have DNA!

Flesh forms though, as Steel Eyes said, exhibit such strong irreversible physiological effects that their DNA really has to change to some extent. What extent is unclear though. They may still be identifiable as the host if analysis was done, depending on the extent of the changes, or they might only be identifiable as 'was once a troll' or 'a dog' etc. Its really a GM call. Its magic so just about anything is possible. Its not like a normal possession remember - its permanent and irreversible. Even if you banish the spirit the person the carcass used to belong to is gone forever.

Wow, never knew that. Will definitely have to remember that for later...

It sounds as if someone is thinkin of cloning some of those "changed" beings... Well at least i am Ala Aliens Ressurection

Threats 2 details this, but it IS there in the bug rules in MITS. P128, Summoning Insect Spirits, para 2, sentence 2:

'This (host) body is usually that of a metahuman, but in a pinch other bodies, such as animals and paracritters, will serve as well'

Threats 2 talks of a certain corporation-who-should-know-better's efforts to breed and control bug hives, using things like hellhounds and other nastiness.

I'm guessing they use metahumans (like trolls, which is REALLY nasty) in preference because a good merge can infiltrate human society and gather more hosts more easily than an animal can. For soldiers though, animals make more sense - they're generally faster and have built in weaponry for a start off.

Heh, a corp that should know better. Ya know, SR would have a lot fewer issues if the powers that be would sit down and watch some old flat vid sci-fi horror and take it to heart.

I'd look at it as the process of merging acts much like permanently sustaining a spell on the host that is responsible for the changes. For much the same reason I'd think Control Emotions doesn't directly stimulate seratonin/dopamine levels in the brain; it just Controls their Emotions.

I think magic follows different laws, and in the SR world, we're not so clear yet on what they are.

I just had a nasty thought imagine what would happen if bug spirits managed to take over one of those Doc Wagon Cloning facilities if I remember correctly, bug spirits can be really intelligent, wonder if they could make the facility continue to spew out clones for conversion. Anyone know if a clone merge would work well? I've got evil plans for my players

I see no reason why not, depending on whether or not you buy the official line about it being 'impossible' to create a viable human clone. If they aren't mentally viable, its probably not possible for the bug to possess them. i base this assumption on the fact that you can get a good merge which possess the abilities and knowledge of the original (which answers your other question - can they run a cloning facility? sure, if they good merge one of the medicos). If you can get a good merge, it stands to reason that they use the mind of the host as well. Without that mind, there may be nothing suitable astrally to 'get hold' of. note - I don't mean NOTHING astrally, just maybe nothing suitable.

Edit: Personally, I'd say why not have them take over the city pound? They can round up strays and host them, using the good merges (ex pound employees) to seek out new prey. you can increase your chances of getting a good merge by sustaining an increased willpower spell on your victim when you incubate them, giving them additional successes (more successes the better for a good merge remember) thereby reducing the number of people who go 'missing' which raises suspicions, and you'll have yourself an army of host bodies in a few weeks and no-one will have noticed except for the lack of wild dog packs in rougher areas, which people will actually be HAPPY about.

Good Gawd, I'm evil.

I'd agree with the "doesn't change the DNA" camp, but it seems like a GM judgment call to me.

Ugh, the Doc Wagon cloning idea needs to be kept on the down-low. Don't want anyone getting any good ideas, heh.

I'd say that a Transform spell temporarily supercedes / creates an 'overlay' to the subject's base DNA, which is in effect and prevents the base DNA from reasserting itself as long as the spell is in effect.

Rendering it permanent via Quickening renders the overlay permanent, but the core DNA is still there, and would reassert if the spell ever goes away. A DNA scan performed on such a character would reveal two sets of DNAs, much like Astral Perception would reveal both the presence of the spell, and the Transformed subject's aura.

Now, a merge with a Bug and a host...that results in a completely unalterable change to the host's physiology: it can't change back. And removal of the Bug spirit (by whatever means) doesn't result in the host changing back to it's original physiology; the merged host will retain it's new appearance, even after death (when presumably the Bug is completely gone).

By this logic, a DNA scanner would read and document only the new, Bug changed DNA.

Had a sammeit aht wanted to go mage.. I had considered making him play his doc-wagon clone instead, since there is no rule basis for learning magic from scratch.

How I like the World of Darkness, Mage: the Ascension way of doing things so much better.

DNA is simply a Technocracy "construct" used to explain to the sleepers, and themselves how life forms develop and inherit trains from their parents. In reality, there is no DNA. The results of life magic on a subject's "DNA" is dependent on what the observer expects to see. If a person were untouched by collective unconscious construct perpetrated by the Technocracy and believes something else makes up the physicality of a living being, then they would see no DNA. If a person was ingrained to DNA believe construct to the point they cannot accept a physicality drastically different then what the DNA coding should dictate, they would see a merged or highly unusual DNA, and likely suspect some sort of breeding, genetic engineering, or nanite reconstruction process has taken place. And like the theory Schrödinger's cat, such observations would likely influence future observation. It makes questions like these (and the weird invisibility debates) so much easier.

Yeah, I know it doesn't really help to answer the question directly, or maybe it does. This gets into the metaphysics and underlying philosophy of the Shadowrun world, especially if you include the Earthdawn crossover information in with it. Where does life come from? How did it develop? What influence does genetics have on magic or magic have on genetics? Can magical effects and enchantments be inherited (a la the elves of Blood Wood)? What happens to those effects when the mana level drops? What happens when they come back? How can creatures with out a genetic code or that even are not organic reproduce? How come so many different "styles" of magic co-exist? Are the "rules" of magic actually subjective? If so, how did they develop so quickly in the 6th age? Who came up with them? If the rules of magic are subjective and mutable to some degree, then what about technology? Where does not draw the line between technology and magic, especially when one can create a sustaining focus or quicken a spell on an object that does the same thing as a technological one?

Okay, now I know I'm going on a huge tangent here. So I'll leave it at that.

spontaneous change of DNA would cause a spontaneous change in person, a la goblinization of humans, if the sudden activation of dna would cause a regular human to grow horns and tusks in seconds and become a troll, then I don't see why DNA overlay wouldn't explain the drastic change in metahumans by the insect merge.

So here is a question then, do bug spirits have their own DNA pattern? What about other spirits? What about big spirits in spirit form? If bug spirits have DNA when in a host body, but not in spirit form, then when do they gain DNA? Does this mean that other spirits have the potential to manifest DNA? What happens to the DNA of a creature that has a spirit merge with it, such as a spirit ally?

I don't think the DNA change (if any) from a transform spell is necessarily deliberate. The body is just changed into whatever. to all intents and purposes. That the DNA might change is simply a by-product. It is changed instantly because its magic. And I maintain that if a DNA sample was taken in these circumstances it would detect as whatever they really are because as soon as the DNA leaves contact with the spell's aura it will revert.

As far as the viable cloning thing - yes M&M states that people are cloned in their entirety for parts harvesting. But the clones aren't viable. they cannot exist independently, aside from their autonomous nervous system, which is intact. They have no mind.

This is what I mean by accepting the official line:

Either 1, it is as the book says and it just isn't possible, and has nothing to do with the conditions the clones are maintained in regardless of what plausible explanations you could use - the game information states explicitly it isn't possible, but does not give a reason. It just isn't possible. if this was purely in the In-character section then I'd agree some leeway, but it isn't.

Or 2 - you don't accept the official line and the reason for non-viable clones is something physical, perhaps the forced maturation needed to grow a full sized adult ruins their minds, or they are kept in dodgy conditions, or their brains are only three months old cos that kind of neural tissue can't be force matured, or whatever. But if you accept it, there is no scientific reason, it just isn't possible. If you don't, then go for your life. Clones are possible and there's a reason no-one knows about it.


As far as bug DNA, well its pretty obvious I'd say. if they DO alter the DNA (still a GM call, imho), then I'd say depending on how good the merge is, they will detect as part original creature, and part bug, to a greater or lesser degree. They might still be identifiable as who they once were, but analysis will show up also 'non-human' DNA. On further investigation you'd probably discover partial Fly, or Beetle, or whatever DNA mixed up in there.

Again, it doesn't matter too much if this is a scientifically viable proposition. Magic has been involved, and so (altogether now) anything is possible. Standard get out clause wherever magic is involved and it sounds a bit odd.

I thought that in Goblinization, you're not actually changing the DNA, just suddenly letting other bits of the DNA work.

Goblinization and UGE both work by allowing the DNA's shape to funnel mana. Its shape is determined by the 90% inactive portion.

I would rule that the DNA is altered for all but good merges to a degree proportional to the change. However, the DNA does not show signs of insect investation. Instead it seems to be rotting or degrading.

I would use the Terminus Experiment method of explaining why the DNA of the host doesn't change. Rather the mundane aspects of the DNA doesn't change, it is the the meta-DNA/Insect spirit interaction that causes the change in the host. In a Flesh form the astral shadow of the Insect astral form causes a change in the astral DNA of the metahuman which in turn inflences the mundane DNA. Without the influence of the astral Insect shadow, the DNA material left by the host (say if a claw was cut off) would revert back to pre-host condition.

I do not have UB or any Insect sourcebook other than MITS, and MITS doesn't say anything on the subject so the above description is flavour, not Canon(Hey, it's me!).