No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[kjones]

One of my players wants to create a stealthy sniper-type. I think his plan is to only pack one weapon, his tricked-out pimp ass sniper rifle. I'm pretty sure that by the rules, there's nothing stopping him from, say, storming a building with it - the rules are too abstract to model the problems that would result from that.

But the image of somebody wielding a sniper rifle in the same situations as they would wield a SA pistol irks me. Am I missing something? Should I houserule something? Or should I just let it go?

(I know that concealment is a factor, but I'm talking more about using a sniper rifle in situations where its unwieldiness would be a factor.)

[Starmage21]

One of my players wants to create a stealthy sniper-type. I think his plan is to only pack one weapon, his tricked-out pimp ass sniper rifle. I'm pretty sure that by the rules, there's nothing stopping him from, say, storming a building with it - the rules are too abstract to model the problems that would result from that.

But the image of somebody wielding a sniper rifle in the same situations as they would wield a SA pistol irks me. Am I missing something? Should I houserule something? Or should I just let it go?

(I know that concealment is a factor, but I'm talking more about using a sniper rifle in situations where its unwieldiness would be a factor.)

DMRs are kinda built for this kind of duty.

Also, its no different than carrying a full-sized shotgun like the binelli M-4 into the same situations.

[Wandering One]

(I know that concealment is a factor, but I'm talking more about using a sniper rifle in situations where its unwieldiness would be a factor.)

By RAW, you can attach a flamethrower underbarrel in Arsenel... by GM-Fiat, I enforce a modicum of sanity. Okay, everyone's got +3 perception since you've got to have a lighter on the end, your sniper shots are -2 due to the difficulty wielding it without a bipod, another -1 for the smoke from the bic burning under your barrel and creating variable heat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But... yeah... shotgun snipers are possible. Heck, play COD... the shot is 50/50 but when you HIT... ow. Really no different then jamming a .22 long rifle into someone's gut and pulling the trigger, just sniper rifles are calibrated for scoped sights and significantly more accurate shots at range.

[Karoline]

Only one sniper rifle suffers from a problem with usage in non-sniping situations by RAW, and it is only like a -1 or so DP as I recall.

Personally, I don't see that a sniper rifle is going to be that unwieldy compared to an assault rifle or sports rifle, and certainly not compared to the heavy weapons that can be used with no penalty. Sure, you might have problems when you get into melee or something, but that happens with any firearm.

You don't really get to see it in comparison to anything, but the Walther doesn't look like it is more than a few inches longer than an AK or Ares Alpha.

[psychophipps]

With bullpup weapons getting more consideration for sniper weapons lately, I can easily imagine a semi-auto bullpup sniper rifle that isn't any longer than a full-size M16.

[Rasumichin]

By RAW, it's also perfectly legal to mod sniper rifles for burst fire.
Firearms in SR have little to nothing to do with how guns work in real life.
They share this trait with computers, medicine, drugs, social interactions, explosives and probably a bunch of other stuff, too.

[Dumori]

SR4A adds a new penity for useing sinper rifles out side of sniper roles.

[Karoline]

SR4A adds a new penity for useing sinper rifles out side of sniper roles.

.... care to expand on that? Like what the penalty is or at least what page it is on for those that have 4A.

[kjones]

I think what Dumori is referring to is on p. 319 of SR4A, in the Street Gear section.

At the end of every Turn in which the rifle is used in a running firefight (as opposed to a sniping situation), roll an Edge Test. For every Edge Test failed, the weapon incurs a –1 dice pool modifier until it is recalibrated with an Armorer + Logic (8, 1 Minute) Extended Test. The modifier is doubled if the weapon is used in combat as a melee weapon or to defend from a melee attack.

which is news to me, but I haven't read SR4A cover-to-cover, only the original 4th ed. BBB. It's the second quote that confuses me - when would you do that?

[Dumori]

At then end of every combat turn you the GM feels the sniper rifle is not being used for snipeing.

[Doc Byte]

Just use the good ol' Avtomat Kalashnikova :

AK-97

Mods

- Easy Breakdown, manual [1]
- Gas Vent 2 [1]
- Folding Stock [1]
- Electronic Firing [2]
- Skinlink [1]

Accessories

- Internal Smartlink [internal]
- Sound Suppressor [barrel]
- Underbarrel Weight / Bipod [under]

Imaging Scope Lv.4 [top]
- Smartlink
- Vision Magnification
- Low Light
- Flare Compensation


Nuyen: 3.905

[Mongoose]

Apply a "tight quarters" modifier to his dodge tests whenever it seems like the sniper rifle might get in the way, such as in narrow hallways. Of course, trolls have the same problem.
Also, the ranges on SR weapons have always bugged me. Weapons should have a Point Blank range, underneath which targets get a bonus to dodge (assuming they can dodge). Pistols and such would have point blank rage of zero or 1, but for a sniper rifle, that could easily be 10 meters or so.

[Nal0n]

I suggest using a Walther MA-2100 then, as it does not suffer in normal ranged combat situations:

It (the Walther MA-2100) is far more stable and hardy than other sniper rifles (dispensing with the Edge Test when used in Ranged Combat outside its sniping role, though not Melee Combat).

Apart from that: A troll with an Assault Cannon or a normal sized char with a pimped Sniper Rifle, where's the difference? (size and handling/dodging-wise)

[Dumori]

Assult-cannons are the ultimate work house gun though I ten to mount mine under my HMGs not the other way round (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) yes I have a troll is a HMG with a UB Gauss rifle and yes he bearly every uses it and it is in fact more of a running gag.

[Yerameyahu]

Weird, I thought the Sniper Rifle 'de-calibration' penalty was already there in the Fanpro 4e Corebook. Anyway, yes: there's no reason a 'sniper rifle' is any more unwieldy than other full-size weapons (e.g., longarms), especially given the availability of bullpup sniper rifles in the present day.

If this was a real issue, then you'd have to have penalties for anything bigger than SMGs.

HA, oh god. I'd never allow a heavy weapon under a heavy weapon, period.

[Smokeskin]

I've houseruled a Cumbersome Weapon Rating. Unless the weapon is fired with proper brace (prone, behind something to rest the weapon or your front elbow on, etc.), the CWR gets applied to your initative roll. If you're fighting in tight quarters, in melee, ducking through a doorway to fire down the hallway, firing from inside a vehicle, etc., the CWR applies to your dice pool for shooting the weapon too.

-2 CWR: Assault rifles, sport rifles, shotguns
-4 CWR: Sniper rifles and LMGs
-6 CWR: Other heavy weapons

[hobgoblin]

By RAW, you can attach a flamethrower underbarrel in Arsenel... by GM-Fiat, I enforce a modicum of sanity. Okay, everyone's got +3 perception since you've got to have a lighter on the end, your sniper shots are -2 due to the difficulty wielding it without a bipod, another -1 for the smoke from the bic burning under your barrel and creating variable heat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

not sure if a modern day flamethrower would actually need a pilot light.

[Dumori]

HA, oh god. I'd never allow a heavy weapon under a heavy weapon, period.

Read the underbarrle weapon rules as long as the base gun is atleast the same size os the gun your mounting it on it fits by RAW

[Yerameyahu]

Everything is subject to GM approval, particularly underbarrel weapon mounts.

[Mäx]

HA, oh god. I'd never allow a heavy weapon under a heavy weapon, period.

Are you disallowing ub-grenade launcers on heavy weapons only or on all weapons.

[Method]

First, reason with your player. ASk him if he thinks this is reasonable or if he's just power gaming. Something to consider: If this were feasible, why don't SWAT teams and spec ops run around clearing buildings with sniper rifles?

If that doesn't work, gently remind your player that anything his PC can do, the opposing NPCs can also do.

If that still doesn't work, send in the trolls with Thunderstruck Gauss Rifles and let the dice fall where they may...

[Method]

I've houseruled a Cumbersome Weapon Rating. Unless the weapon is fired with proper brace (prone, behind something to rest the weapon or your front elbow on, etc.), the CWR gets applied to your initative roll. If you're fighting in tight quarters, in melee, ducking through a doorway to fire down the hallway, firing from inside a vehicle, etc., the CWR applies to your dice pool for shooting the weapon too.

-2 CWR: Assault rifles, sport rifles, shotguns
-4 CWR: Sniper rifles and LMGs
-6 CWR: Other heavy weapons

And I like this, too.

[Karoline]

First, reason with your player. ASk him if he thinks this is reasonable or if he's just power gaming. Something to consider: If this were feasible, why don't SWAT teams and spec ops run around clearing buildings with sniper rifles?

Because SWAT teams aren't trained to use sniper rifles? Assault rifles require less skill to use since you can just 'spray and pray' if you need to, and short bursts are very effective. Also, sniper rifles are way more expensive.

Think about it like in an FPS type game. You can use a sniper rifle in closer combat, and if you're good, it is exceedingly effective due to its 'one hit one kill' tendency. If you aren't as good with it, it is horridly difficult to use simply because it doesn't put out rounds as quickly, which means you have a greater chance of doing no damage at all.

Given that IRL a single bullet is generally enough to take a person down, the SWAT teams are way more concerned with being able to fairly accurately put out a decent number of rounds than be able to fire every couple of seconds with a weapon that will blow someone's head off.

If that doesn't work, gently remind your player that anything his PC can do, the opposing NPCs can also do.

Of course.

If that still doesn't work, send in the trolls with Thunderstruck Gauss Rifles and let the dice fall where they may...

Which is in an entirely different league from using a sniper rifle in close combat. Even so, I personally use a shotgun of some kind for close range when making a sniping character, even though it is perfectly possible to use the rifle.

[svenftw]

Because SWAT teams aren't trained to use sniper rifles? Assault rifles require less skill to use since you can just 'spray and pray' if you need to, and short bursts are very effective. Also, sniper rifles are way more expensive.

SWAT teams train heavily and make great use of sniper rifles on a daily basis.

Also, the cost of even a mil-spec Remington 700 is less than a base model M4.

[ClemulusRex]

I had a friend who did just that back in SR2. He played an elven assassin PhysAd with some kind of "shadow walking" power that just stayed at the fringes of the fight, taking his shot and then moving on to a new vantage point.

Honestly, I think it's just up to you as to how 'realistic' you want to make things. If you're going for a grittier tone, then you might want to inflict some kind of penalty for the weapon's unwieldiness in tight quarters (a different friend of mine might say "Well, GURPS has rules for that...") However, if you're game is more on the end of the "let's fight mustache-twirling corporate CEOs and post-apocalyptic mutants while sporting our green mohawks and glowing nano-tattoos" spectrum, then let 'em do it.