One of my players wants to create a stealthy sniper-type. I think his plan is to only pack one weapon, his tricked-out pimp ass sniper rifle. I'm pretty sure that by the rules, there's nothing stopping him from, say, storming a building with it - the rules are too abstract to model the problems that would result from that.

But the image of somebody wielding a sniper rifle in the same situations as they would wield a SA pistol irks me. Am I missing something? Should I houserule something? Or should I just let it go?

(I know that concealment is a factor, but I'm talking more about using a sniper rifle in situations where its unwieldiness would be a factor.)

DMRs are kinda built for this kind of duty.

Also, its no different than carrying a full-sized shotgun like the binelli M-4 into the same situations.

By RAW, you can attach a flamethrower underbarrel in Arsenel... by GM-Fiat, I enforce a modicum of sanity. Okay, everyone's got +3 perception since you've got to have a lighter on the end, your sniper shots are -2 due to the difficulty wielding it without a bipod, another -1 for the smoke from the bic burning under your barrel and creating variable heat.

But... yeah... shotgun snipers are possible. Heck, play COD... the shot is 50/50 but when you HIT... ow. Really no different then jamming a .22 long rifle into someone's gut and pulling the trigger, just sniper rifles are calibrated for scoped sights and significantly more accurate shots at range.

Only one sniper rifle suffers from a problem with usage in non-sniping situations by RAW, and it is only like a -1 or so DP as I recall.

Personally, I don't see that a sniper rifle is going to be that unwieldy compared to an assault rifle or sports rifle, and certainly not compared to the heavy weapons that can be used with no penalty. Sure, you might have problems when you get into melee or something, but that happens with any firearm.

You don't really get to see it in comparison to anything, but the Walther doesn't look like it is more than a few inches longer than an AK or Ares Alpha.

With bullpup weapons getting more consideration for sniper weapons lately, I can easily imagine a semi-auto bullpup sniper rifle that isn't any longer than a full-size M16.

By RAW, it's also perfectly legal to mod sniper rifles for burst fire.
Firearms in SR have little to nothing to do with how guns work in real life.
They share this trait with computers, medicine, drugs, social interactions, explosives and probably a bunch of other stuff, too.

SR4A adds a new penity for useing sinper rifles out side of sniper roles.

.... care to expand on that? Like what the penalty is or at least what page it is on for those that have 4A.

I think what Dumori is referring to is on p. 319 of SR4A, in the Street Gear section.



which is news to me, but I haven't read SR4A cover-to-cover, only the original 4th ed. BBB. It's the second quote that confuses me - when would you do that?

At then end of every combat turn you the GM feels the sniper rifle is not being used for snipeing.

Just use the good ol' Avtomat Kalashnikova :

AK-97

Mods

- Easy Breakdown, manual [1]
- Gas Vent 2 [1]
- Folding Stock [1]
- Electronic Firing [2]
- Skinlink [1]

Accessories

- Internal Smartlink [internal]
- Sound Suppressor [barrel]
- Underbarrel Weight / Bipod [under]

Imaging Scope Lv.4 [top]
- Smartlink
- Vision Magnification
- Low Light
- Flare Compensation


Nuyen: 3.905

Apply a "tight quarters" modifier to his dodge tests whenever it seems like the sniper rifle might get in the way, such as in narrow hallways. Of course, trolls have the same problem.
Also, the ranges on SR weapons have always bugged me. Weapons should have a Point Blank range, underneath which targets get a bonus to dodge (assuming they can dodge). Pistols and such would have point blank rage of zero or 1, but for a sniper rifle, that could easily be 10 meters or so.

I suggest using a Walther MA-2100 then, as it does not suffer in normal ranged combat situations:



Apart from that: A troll with an Assault Cannon or a normal sized char with a pimped Sniper Rifle, where's the difference? (size and handling/dodging-wise)

Assult-cannons are the ultimate work house gun though I ten to mount mine under my HMGs not the other way round yes I have a troll is a HMG with a UB Gauss rifle and yes he bearly every uses it and it is in fact more of a running gag.

Weird, I thought the Sniper Rifle 'de-calibration' penalty was already there in the Fanpro 4e Corebook. Anyway, yes: there's no reason a 'sniper rifle' is any more unwieldy than other full-size weapons (e.g., longarms), especially given the availability of bullpup sniper rifles in the present day.

If this was a real issue, then you'd have to have penalties for anything bigger than SMGs.

HA, oh god. I'd never allow a heavy weapon under a heavy weapon, period.

I've houseruled a Cumbersome Weapon Rating. Unless the weapon is fired with proper brace (prone, behind something to rest the weapon or your front elbow on, etc.), the CWR gets applied to your initative roll. If you're fighting in tight quarters, in melee, ducking through a doorway to fire down the hallway, firing from inside a vehicle, etc., the CWR applies to your dice pool for shooting the weapon too.

-2 CWR: Assault rifles, sport rifles, shotguns
-4 CWR: Sniper rifles and LMGs
-6 CWR: Other heavy weapons

not sure if a modern day flamethrower would actually need a pilot light.

Read the underbarrle weapon rules as long as the base gun is atleast the same size os the gun your mounting it on it fits by RAW

Everything is subject to GM approval, particularly underbarrel weapon mounts.

Are you disallowing ub-grenade launcers on heavy weapons only or on all weapons.

First, reason with your player. ASk him if he thinks this is reasonable or if he's just power gaming. Something to consider: If this were feasible, why don't SWAT teams and spec ops run around clearing buildings with sniper rifles?

If that doesn't work, gently remind your player that anything his PC can do, the opposing NPCs can also do.

If that still doesn't work, send in the trolls with Thunderstruck Gauss Rifles and let the dice fall where they may...

And I like this, too.

Because SWAT teams aren't trained to use sniper rifles? Assault rifles require less skill to use since you can just 'spray and pray' if you need to, and short bursts are very effective. Also, sniper rifles are way more expensive.

Think about it like in an FPS type game. You can use a sniper rifle in closer combat, and if you're good, it is exceedingly effective due to its 'one hit one kill' tendency. If you aren't as good with it, it is horridly difficult to use simply because it doesn't put out rounds as quickly, which means you have a greater chance of doing no damage at all.

Given that IRL a single bullet is generally enough to take a person down, the SWAT teams are way more concerned with being able to fairly accurately put out a decent number of rounds than be able to fire every couple of seconds with a weapon that will blow someone's head off.

Of course. Which is in an entirely different league from using a sniper rifle in close combat. Even so, I personally use a shotgun of some kind for close range when making a sniping character, even though it is perfectly possible to use the rifle.

SWAT teams train heavily and make great use of sniper rifles on a daily basis.

Also, the cost of even a mil-spec Remington 700 is less than a base model M4.

I had a friend who did just that back in SR2. He played an elven assassin PhysAd with some kind of "shadow walking" power that just stayed at the fringes of the fight, taking his shot and then moving on to a new vantage point.

Honestly, I think it's just up to you as to how 'realistic' you want to make things. If you're going for a grittier tone, then you might want to inflict some kind of penalty for the weapon's unwieldiness in tight quarters (a different friend of mine might say "Well, GURPS has rules for that...") However, if you're game is more on the end of the "let's fight mustache-twirling corporate CEOs and post-apocalyptic mutants while sporting our green mohawks and glowing nano-tattoos" spectrum, then let 'em do it.

iirc, two things:

1. SWAT use SMGs mostly, not assault rifles. This to reduce over-penetration plus having better control and more ammo then a pistol.

2. SWAT snipers rarely snipe out beyond the kilometer range.

Too bad a Remington 700 isn't a sniper rifle. Also, SWAT snipers train heavily and make great use of sniper rifles, not every SWAT team member.

And my point still stands that a SWAT member is going to be better off with an assault rifle than a sniper rifle regardless in close quarters with potentially bad visibility, not because the sniper rifle is inherently bad in such a situation, but because an assault rifle is better. Like I said, spray and pray. Even if it is dark and you can barely see, if the area is small, you just pull the trigger of an assault rifle and point it in the right general direction and you're likely to hit something.

To answer you're original question: They don't use sniper rifles because assault rifles are more effective.

I don't really see using a Sniper Rifles in SR4 as 'power gaming'. This character isn't gaining a terrible advantage, beyond not having to buy, carry, and train with two guns. As we all know, the real 'problem' is Automatics.

Most American SWAT teams use M4 assault rifles modified for their particular role.

And you're right, but they actually rarely snipe outside of the 100 yard range. Rarely are they farther away than across the street.

The 700 is most certainly a sniper rifle, it's what all American forces use. But of course assault rifles are much more effective in CQB, I never meant to argue that point.

Well, in game it is a sports rifle, no idea about IRL. That said, you've rather answered yourself haven't you? If you know assault rifles are more effective in CQB, then why are you asking why they wouldn't use something else? They aren't more effective because of wieldiness, but because of their innate ability to put out a large number of rounds. It's the same reason they don't use pistols they lack the high bullet output of an assault rifle.

And of course, don't forget you're playing a game where a sword(or bare hands) is a totally valid option that will not draw even the slightest amount of strange looks or anything when running into the midst of a group of people firing assault weapons at you. Obviously realism isn't the mainstay of SR in the first place. So yeah, go ahead and take out sniper rifles from CQB, but make sure to take out melee as an option in a firefight as well, because it is also unrealistic.

I think you're confusing me with somebody else, I never said any of those things. I was just clearing up some inaccuracies about weapons that you put forth. Although I admit I was using real world examples, and now it's clear that you were not. It's hard to tell on Dumpshock, people use real world examples to justify role playing scenarios quite often.

Not at close range or in CQB.

Also, there is such a thing as a battle rifle which is also not a sniper rifle for what should be obvious reasons.

I didn't think that needed to be said. I forgot where I was.

AFAIK, contrary to common prejudice, the 5.56mm is also less likely to shoot through building structures like walls than common pistol calibers because of fragmentation.

In SR, I'd subscribe to the use of scoped assault rifles for sniper type characters. Better availability, cheaper, more versatile and sufficient range for urban situations.

That, and many 'sniper rifles' are basically just combat rifles with long-range optics. Maybe the OP is talking about a Barrett 50-cal, but that's a pretty special subcategory.

The bigger problem is the fact that a good shot from a sniper rifle does a fair bit more damage than an assault rifle, and that 'one shot kill' is more or less the point of the sniper. You could of course use full auto from max range (Take that realism) with no more penalty than from short range, but you also have the stealth aspect to consider, and it is harder to silence an assault rifle than it is a sniper rifle.

In SR, they're equally easy to silence. You'd have to trade off the gas-vents, but you could still handle at least short (and probably long) bursts without recoil.

Sound suppressors burn out after so many rounds, and their mod equivalent is more expensive/uses more mod slots and I believe is less effective.

And of course if you're giving up the gas-vent, you're giving up high bullet count, which is basically the only advantage an assault rifle has over a sniper rifle.

Sorry, I think I misinterpreted your initial post. Thought you were arguing that SWAT teams routinely used sniper rifles in close quarters, etc...

No, he was saying that if sniper rifles weren't unwieldy in CQC, why wouldn't all SWAT teams use them in CQC. Or someone was, getting people mixed up today it seems.

Method was saying that, I was only clarifying that SWAT teams do use sniper rifles.

There are other, non-rule reasons why sniper rifles aren't used up close. The rate of fire is a big reason, their weight is another reason. The heavier a sniper rifle is, the more stable it is and the slower it moves. This is an advantage when in position, and a disadvantage in CQB obviously. The ergonomics are all wrong as well.

But that's the real world. In most Shadowrun games, style counts just as much as substance. If it were my game, I'd be sure to let that up-close sniper pull off plenty of cool stuff with it, but I'd also make sure it got in the way every now and then.

Okay, the AK-97 was a nice low-budget solution. Now the high-end alternative:

HK G12A3z

Stock equipment

Gas Vent 2
Telescoping Stock
Laser Sight

Internal mods

Easy Breakdown, manual [1]
Electronic Firing [2]
Bayonet Mount [1] & Bayonet
Melee Hardening [1]
Extreme Environment Mod I [1]

External accessories

Internal Smartlink [internal]
Sound Suppressor [barrel]
Bipod [under]
Imaging Scope Lv.4 [top]
- Smartlink
- Vision Magnification
- Low Light
- Flare Compensation


Nuyen: 7.960


3 weapons in 1 ready to go just about anywhere. RC's 4 both in silent sniper and assault configuration and can even go up to 6 when the drek hits the fan. The only drawback's that the assault mode has only the laser sight or relies on Wi-Fi.

An internal smartlink has always been my favorite external accessory.

Exactly, Doc Byte. I thought I made it clear that the suppressed Assault Rifle can easily get short and even long bursts without recoil. The fact that there's a cost involved isn't really an issue. This is in addition to what we all already know: the AR also uses Automatics (extra flexibility there), can have those gas-vents available at a Free Action's notice, etc.

A Remington 700 is a hunting rifle.

A Remington 700 + lots of expensive parts + lots of expensive gunsmith labor = a sniper rifle.

Learned that trick at DS.

The phrase was actually 'mil-spec Remington 700', not that it matters for 'unwieldiness'.

The 700 is an action. It comes in a variety of different platforms, anything from "sniper rifles" (with the right add-ons) to the 700 XCR compact tactical rifle.

Isnt the whole point of a 'sniper rifle' to hit targets at range with extreme accuracy, with often a single killing/disabling shot?
Fluff wise, kind of sounds wrong to use it in CQB. Use an assault rifle.