It's a sniper character. OP says he wants to just not carry a sidearm. Nothing wrong with that, if concealability isn't something he cares about. Besides, again, sniper rifles really aren't as good as (see above) a nice AR, unless you just gotta shoot a) through huge armor, or b) beyond 600m. It's not like the character is cheating. Besides, all weapons in SR are equally 'accurate' with a scope, which everyone should have.

I say, let the poor sniper be involved, instead of sitting out just because the run doesn't call for a 1000m hit.

Incidentally, I assumed that 'de-calibration' penalty was only for the Ranger Arms rifle in the core book, not a general sniper rifles rule.

Turns out the character will also be packing a Nitama Optimum II (I outfitted an NPC with one recently and I think it made an impression) so this will be not so much of a problem. Even so, let's consider the relative merits of using an assault rifle versus a sniper rifle in a CQC situation (say, less than 50 meters - and I'm not sure I've ever had a serious firefight with ranges much beyond that).

AR:
-BF/FA (this is the big one)
-Larger mag
-Generally higher RC
-No miscalibrated optics penalty

Sniper:
-Higher base DV
-Higher base AP

It seems to me that the advantages of a sniper rifle in CQC are mostly mitigated by the fact that one can fire bursts with an assault rifle. A long narrow burst (+5 DV) will, on average, be more effective than the sniper rifle's increased base DV (+2-3) and AP (-3 AP -> 1 less point of soak on average -> +1 DV). Granted, you can only do it once per turn, and this is assuming your gun is pimped out with gas-vent, etc...

I suppose the moral of the story is that sniper rifles are better for sniping, and assault rifles are better for CQC, and that's pretty OK with me.

Side note: You know what else would be silly? Modding your sniper rifle for BF.

Numerically, SWAT members do not all train with a Sniper Rifle... you have the Marksmen (Snipers) and the Assault teams (who use either smg's or asault rifles/Shotguns)...

Yeah, you can get a farily optimized Sniper Rifle (Remington 700) for fairly cheap... though I tend to prefer the Dan Brown (even though it is more expensive)... Though if you really want to get crazy, I will take the HK PSG-1... A Very Sweet "Off the Rack" piece of equipment, but it better be at just over 10,000 Dollars...

Keep the Faith

Not all American Forces use the Remington 700 by the way...

Keep the Faith

Actually, they have recently been finding that a longer barrel really doesn't do all that much for many sniper rifles. Companies are starting to chop sniper rifle barrels down to 18" from 24-26" without any reduction in overall accuracy across the full effective range of the weapon. It appears that the stiffer barrel for the length of the shot is canceling the trajectory errors induced by the flexing and harmonics of the extra barrel length. So a chopped-down sniper rifle by SR is actually pretty feasible.

Also, top-tier suppressors (the correct term for "silencers") are good for well over 10,000 rounds anymore and actually improve accuracy because the suppressor acts like the worlds biggest and best muzzle crown for uniform gas dispersal at the muzzle. In fact, Surefire has a video of the suppressor department literally burning out two M4s with near-cyclic full-auto fire, both using the same suppressor that kept on ticking without any loss of effectiveness the entire time. They let it cool afterward and it still worked as well as when it left the workbench.

Double post

A Remington 700P, which costs about $900, is perfectly capable of being a sniper rifle. You just need a scope and decent ammo. You can reach out to 1000 yards effectively and even I can usually keep 5 rounds inside 4 inches at 300 yards. The rifle is better than that, it's me that is the limiting factor. I've gotten a few 1 inch 3-5 round groups at 200 yards.

It's almost always the guy behind the rifle that is the limiting factor. You have to be VERY good before the use of a professionally built tactical rifle makes a difference in your shooting. Unlike SR, in reality investing in top quality gear without the skill and hours of training and practice is generally just wasted money.

If you want to see why I think the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move is insane, see the picture in this article on the British Army sniper who dropped 5 guys in under 30 seconds at over a mile.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...ish-patrol.html

Why does that make the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move insane? Like, insanely powerful, or somehow the fact that a sniper can take out 5 people in 28 seconds from over a mile away means that moving with a sniper rifle is impossible?

Actually, isn't that *just* like SR4 in terms of guns, kzt? Your accuracy is based on skill (and Agility), not the gun.

While you can get a sniper rifle with BF, it uses up so many Mod Slots that it's just… sad. The mod suppressor has the nice -6, and I want my rifle to have dual clips, after all!

Think he means that an amateur can buy an expensive sniper rifle with a smartlink, and take a couple 'take aim' actions, and hit just about anything from absolute maximum range without difficulty. (3 Agi + 1 Skill + 2 Smartlink + take aim to negate range + 2 take aim = 8DP = 2 automatic hits or roll for almost 3 on average)

In the real world, getting beyond a certain range takes serious skill because you have to start taking not just 'the wind' into account, but the current of the wind over the entire length of the shot, not to mention the amount of shaking an amateur would have would likely throw the aim way off.

In his defense, I can only think of a small handful of RPG games that an amateur character wouldnt be able to make that shot, compared to a professionally trained character that could.
Abstract rules for ease of playing, without too many variables to slow down the game.

Edit: spelling

You're absolutely correct. But the problem is the RAW don't contain anything that prohibits or even discourages using a snipper rifle in CQB. You can use one in melee if you want and you don't suffer any more penalty than using a pistol.

I see what you mean, Karoline. I was only responding to the skill vs. gear question, so that's true.

All depends on how the game handles range penalties really. In SR it is very easy to negate those penalties, in some games it is difficult or impossible to do so. D&D 3E for example let you fire up to 10x a ranged weapon's 'range' but each category was a -2 to hit, and there was no way to negate the penalty. Thus the amateur would be at -20, as would the pro, but the pro would have enough of a bonus to maybe have a positive modifier, while the amateur would have a massive negative modifier.

But you are right, most games give very broad ranges before a penalty is applied, and an amateur archer is just as effective at 10 feet as at 200 feet or whatever.

I know by RAW this blows, if that were to happen in my game, to try and keep it even a little 'beleievable' I would give said player a dice pool penalty, just to try and keep the illusion of beleivability there.
I would also explain beforehand to player why I am doing it and if he has any comments/issues with said ruling. In my experience if you catch something like this beforehand and discuss it before it becomes an 'issue' a player is not going to have a hissy fit (even though 99% of the time, they are adults) as he/she will understand from the GMs point of view, WHY there is a penalty.

As it stands by:
RAW - its okay
Me as a GM - its not okay

But said player is encouraged to try and change my point of view, he/she may see something that I havent considered yet.

My 0.02 nuyen.

A Nitama Optimum, or an H&K XM38 modified for marksman work, are great multirole guns. In all honesty, if he wants to use a sniper's rifle in close quarters, let him... compared to the amount of damage he could likely be doing with a grenade launcher or assault rifle, he's really not pushing the curve all that far.

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

Well my view will be a little biased, as we have a house rule for that.. But I say bring it on!
But then again, the knife to the face is barely any different to a knife to the leg in SR, called shots dont work very well.

Whether its a gun fight or a knife fight is dependent on range.

If you're farther than 5-10 meters from your enemy with a knife and he's got a firearm, well you chose wrong.

If you're within a meter of your enemy with a pistol and he's slashing at you with a knife, thats all bets are off.

But if you're within a meter of your enemy with a sniper rifle and he's slashing at you with a knife, then you (probably) chose wrong (unless you're using the rifle as a club, but if thats the case say goodbye to your spendy precision optics).

Did you look at the rifle he's holding?

For what it's worth, I've read some reports of folks in Iraq and Afghanistan operating in sniper support roles.

A lot of them ended up carrying two rifles around, one precision marksman job and one short assault rifle or even SMG for when they've moving from sniping point to sniping point due to the close quarters. And yes, they complained that it was heavy and a pain in the ass humping around all that gear, noting they'd have loved to have some of the newer battle rifles that have appeared recently instead - decent range and accuracy, but short enough and tough enough for CQB if needed, two weapons in one.



-karma

Sounds like somebody wants the high damage output and armor penetration in close ranged combat. So why he just doesn't stick to an assault rifle with APDS bullets is beyond me

Double post. How'd that happen?

Maybe a bit nitpicky, but you can use the "take aim" action only as many times as half your skill rounded down. So by RAW a Skill-1 PC wouldn't be able to use the "take aim" action at all.

It's not that much difference between a sniper rifle and an old fasioned BA or SA battle rifle, which were often used in close quarters battles. Of course SMGs were preferred for this task, both because of rate of fire and because they were less bulky and easier to move quickly.

Smartlinks are supposed to do this for you. Wind, range, lateral movement, etc...

So in this example the shooter would have 3 + 1 + 2 - 6 = zero DP at extreme range. A skill of 2 would allow him to negate the range modifier, so a DP of 6... not bad for a shot taken at 1500 meters. Smartgun adapters truly are powerful tools, eh?

Perhaps we can suppose that those have become the standard in the next 62 years?


Ah, didn't look it up, likely because the only character I've ever used the take aim action with had a skill of 7, and so three was the number I remembered due to that.


Well, 7 dice actually because it would be 3 + 2 + 2 = 7, and even without the smartgun it is 5 dice, which means the person will hit a (surprised) target at 1500m guaranteed.

Depends on distance and if the guy with the firearm has it holstered. Assuming a holstered firearm the guy with the knife will usually win within 21 feet. That would be why LEOs are usually trained to escalate to lethal force when a guy with a knife is within that range.

I've done some training on it with training knives and "blue" guns. The guy with the gun does usually lose at those ranges. It's difficult to clear a holster and get a "shot" off under stress in under 1.5 seconds, about 2.5 if it's concealed IWB. Shoulder rigs are about the same speed as a hip holster, assuming a loose cover garment.

21 feet is about the range I have been told as well.

Both myself and my GM didn't like the fact that my sharp-shooter styled character kept resorting back to using an assault rifle 99% of the time. The Ares Alpha is just that good. We've messed about with a custom weapon to get something that would draw me away from always deferring to an assault rifle.

Here's the current weapon specs.

HK517 - 1300
Longarm (Sniper Rifle)
Damage: 7P
AP: -2
Firing Modes: SA/BF
Ammo: 18 clip
Recoil: 2
Range Increments: As Sporting Rifle (0-100, 101-250, 251-500, 501-750)

Built-in Modifications: Internal Smartgun, Imaging Scopre, Gas Vent(2)

It's based off the HK417 20" barrel variant.

With the extra three rounds and the optional burst fire, I'm not enticed to try dragging an Ares Desert Fox [8P -3AP, 15©, SA] into a building. And it's good enough that I'm not enticed to constantly use an Ares Alpha (6P, -1AP, 42©, SA/BF/FA) unless I run into a situation where I need to lay down a lot of bullets. I usually carry either the Alpha or a P93 Praetor with me in addition to the HK517....

--



Considering that I tend to do much better when playing CoD and knifing everyone, to the point where I am near the top of the leader boards, I am in full support of this option.

21 feet for orks, humans and elves. And what about a troll? 31 feet?

Remember: Trolls have longer arms AND legs, which mean they can clear a distance faster then others and stil have the reach to get you.

Humm... FOUR pages and no one posted this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV202TpGrY ? Ah well.

As for the discussion: I have nothing to add. I would let him do it. And let him do anything with a sniper-rifle. But yeah, a few drawbacks, sure.

I really don't see the need for drawbacks, fluff- or crunch-wise. It's not a powergamer choice, and a sniper rifle is not more unwieldy than an AR. We certainly let people use full-size shotguns up close.

31 feet sounds fair. The better question is how much distance you have to leave for the Troll with Move-By-Wire and 4 IPs?

I've also had the complaint over the years that all systems, SR included, seem to underestimate the difference between rifle and pistol rounds. My preferred system these days is guilty of that, nothing like the theory that an 8mm pistol round (historically .32 ACP is the closest, about 70 grains at 900 fps) hits the same as an 8mm rifle round (8mm mauser being representative at 200 grains at 2900 fps). Nope, no kinetic energy difference there, no siree.

In the case of this thread I'd allow it under Rule of Cool as long as the rifle is bull-pup, otherwise I'd apply a significant penalty due to over-all length. Most sporting/sniping rifles have 26 inch barrels versus the 16-20 inch barrel in an assault rifle and 12 inch barrel in an SMG. That extra 6 inches of match barrel is likely to frak with the balance point of a rifle intended to be used from a prone or braced position.

The HK-PSG with short barrel mod would be what I'd use. Swap out the bipod or scope for an external smartgun adapter, possibly add melee hardening and then go shoot stuff.

I think most 1st rate armies in the future will be going for a mix of weapons that are highly depndent on the mission. SOme weapons (SMGs, carbines, shotguns, and pistols) are good for clearing buildings. Others such as SAWs, battle/assault rifles are good for mid range combats (to about 100 meters). Sniper rifles/sharpshooters are there for long distance firefights (so are ICBMs but I'm not going to level ).

I don't think SR4 particularly suffers from ignoring cartridge differences. SMGs shoot pistol rounds, and they have about the same DV as pistols shooting those rounds. LMGs shoot rifle rounds, and they have about the same DV as rifles shooting those rounds. Etc.

I haven't made the change to SR4. In SR3 it was a closer gap, Heavy Pistols and SMGs in BF at 9M. Rifles were ~7S for sport models and something absurd like 12D for sniper models. Assault rifles were 8Mish (11S with Burst).

If the gap became greater in SR4 I'd be tentatively pleased.

Really? Can I see a picture of your 57 inch long, 30 pound empty AR?

Thats a Trolls AR commanly know as a MMG

Back in the 'old days' (SR1/2) we had Trolss using Panthers for CQB. One even kept a sawn off one under a poncho.

Not all sniper rifles remotely fit those stats, kzt.

The sniper rifle used in the record-distance confirmed kill is 15.1lbs and 48.4in long.
The standard sniper rifle used by the USMC is about 15lbs and 44in long.

Most sniper rifles don't come close to the length and weight of the .50cal Barrett.

Only 48" long. You can't even pie a door in a normal corridor without sticking the muzzle into the room. Flagging yourself when you are supposed to be sneaking isn't conducive to long life.

I've got a 700, but it's really clumsy compared to an AR. The few pounds makes a big difference, you can't use the scope when moving, and it's damn hard to go through doors and corridors.

A far cry from 57", 30lb.

The SPAS-12 is 10lb, 40", while the M21 is 12lb, 43". It doesn't seem fair to invent a punitive rule on a not-powergaming weapon choice for 2lb, 3".

That would actually be a significantly better choice than trying to scratch him with your MRE opener.

Really, people tend to vastly overestimate the effectiveness of knives based on their Hollywood and game representation as instant, silent killers - sure stabwounds and deep cuts are nasty, but if you are too busy to notice you got stabbed nothing will happen, unlinke hat happens when you get a burst in the chest or get clubbed on the head. If things get close and personal you switch your rifle to "peace" mode and ready the folding shovel, knives are tools and kitchen utensils.

Use a bigger knife.

Most full size AR's or Shotguns do not weigh in at 30 pounds either... the barret M82 weighs in at that weight (with the 29" barrel) and at just under 30 pounds (with the 20" barrel), not including any over the top optics that you could include for night operations...

For Comparisons... the HK-PSG weighs in at 15.87 pounds... with a barrel length of 25.6" and Total Length of 48.4"

Just sayin'

Keep the faith

In the real world... HK-PSG1 for the win... in Shadowrun... HK PSG for the win...

You gotta love it when the best sniper rifle in the world is still in existence in 2072 (May be a personal opinion, but so what)
Of course, the Barret is in there as well, but I still prefer the HK myself...

Though in reality, I would probably choose the Dan Brown myself due to the difficulty in obtaining an HK-PSG 1 in the United States...

Keep the Faith