No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[Yerameyahu]

I think I already addressed that, Tymeaus. The M21 is 12lb. Obviously, there is wide variation between battle rifles used for sniping, extreme range sniper rifles, and anti-material rifles. My point is that there *is* that variation.

If rules just have to be made, simply add a note to the individual weapons (Barrett 107, or whatever it's called) that it has to have a bipod, or whatever you fancy. It seems, however, punitive and unfun, especially in a world of Trolls and magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think I already addressed that, Tymeaus. The M21 is 12lb. Obviously, there is wide variation between battle rifles used for sniping, extreme range sniper rifles, and anti-material rifles. My point is that there *is* that variation.

If rules just have to be made, simply add a note to the individual weapons (Barrett 107, or whatever it's called) that it has to have a bipod, or whatever you fancy. It seems, however, punitive and unfun, especially in a world of Trolls and magic.

Sure... but I was pointing out that even the "Short" barreled Barret is exceedingly heavy... Sniper Rifles run the gamut, no doubt about that... but I would never put an Assault/Battle Rifle in the same category as a Sniper Rifle... can it make some pretty good long range shots, sure (as long as the shooter is good), but not in the same category as a dedicated Sniper Rifle can...

Hell, I have seen an individual (A Marine Sniper back in the late 80's) make some hellacious shots at just over 1000 meters with an M16 with open sights on a man sized target... but no one will ever claim that the M16 is a Sniper Rifle on par with the Barret or HK PSG1... there is a reason that there are seperate and distinct classes for Sniper Rifles and Assault/Battle Rifles... they fill completely different roles...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

That's certainly true. I'm just saying don't penalize a crazy Shadowrunner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's certainly true. I'm just saying don't penalize a crazy Shadowrunner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh No... Definitely... let him dig his own grave...

Keep the Faith

[psychophipps]

The "21 foot rule" is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts in tactical training. The entire, and only, point of the "Tueller Drill" (as it is correctly called) is to demonstrate that a person with a ready edged or impact weapon can close the gap and hurt you badly and/or kill you before (or as) you draw your holstered firearm from a neutral position and fire if they begin their assault from a distance of 21 feet or less. This leads to thousands upon thousands of people incorrectly trying to speed-draw their pistols to "beat the rule" when they should really focus on getting the hell out of the way and/or swapping to a melee weapon/unarmed response that will allow the shooter to attain a position of dominance that then allows them to more safety access their firearm.

Just, FYI.

On another note, please keep in mind that many of the current sniper systems is use are fairly old technology. The Barrett 82 is at least 25 years old, the H&K PSG-1 is even older, and even the venerable M24 is currently being slowly phased out for newer weapons that are replacing them. By comparing the weapons of today in size, shape, materials, etc to the weapons of Shadowrun you're basically comparing the weapons of today with the weapons in common use in WWII and the Korean War. Yes, they're basically the same concept but there has been *a lot* of advancements in the meantime in per-shot accuracy, materials technology, and ballistics. I mentioned the new chopped down and bullpup sniper systems that radically decrease weapon mass and weapon length and you guys still kept on going on about the now-defunct PSG1 and the Barrett which even today has been supplanted by superior designs that are being used today.

Step out of the late 20th century weapons mental box, yo? Like Doc McCoy used to say, "They're dead, Jim..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Only 48" long. You can't even pie a door in a normal corridor without sticking the muzzle into the room. Flagging yourself when you are supposed to be sneaking isn't conducive to long life.

I've got a 700, but it's really clumsy compared to an AR. The few pounds makes a big difference, you can't use the scope when moving, and it's damn hard to go through doors and corridors.

One of the specific rifles in the report I mentioned is the Remington ACR, formerly known as the Magpul Masada. It apparently can be accurized enough for the support sniper role, but still be used for CQB fairly well - the 18" barrel variant is 35 inches in total length, and with the stock folded it drops to 25" long. The shooter in that report expressed that it would have been a hell of a lot easier just carrying that thing instead of both a precision rifle AND an assault rifle around the streets in Iraq.



-karma

[KarmaInferno]

The "21 foot rule" is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts in tactical training. The entire, and only, point of the "Tueller Drill" (as it is correctly called) is to demonstrate that a person with a ready edged or impact weapon can close the gap and hurt you badly and/or kill you before (or as) you draw your holstered firearm from a neutral position and fire if they begin their assault from a distance of 21 feet or less. This leads to thousands upon thousands of people incorrectly trying to speed-draw their pistols to "beat the rule" when they should really focus on getting the hell out of the way and/or swapping to a melee weapon/unarmed response that will allow the shooter to attain a position of dominance that then allows them to more safety access their firearm.

I suppose it's a factor if the guy with the knife is hidden on the ceiling above the guy with the gun.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)




-karma

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On another note, please keep in mind that many of the current sniper systems is use are fairly old technology. The Barrett 82 is at least 25 years old, the H&K PSG-1 is even older, and even the venerable M24 is currently being slowly phased out for newer weapons that are replacing them. By comparing the weapons of today in size, shape, materials, etc to the weapons of Shadowrun you're basically comparing the weapons of today with the weapons in common use in WWII and the Korean War. Yes, they're basically the same concept but there has been *a lot* of advancements in the meantime in per-shot accuracy, materials technology, and ballistics. I mentioned the new chopped down and bullpup sniper systems that radically decrease weapon mass and weapon length and you guys still kept on going on about the now-defunct PSG1 and the Barrett which even today has been supplanted by superior designs that are being used today.

Step out of the late 20th century weapons mental box, yo? Like Doc McCoy used to say, "They're dead, Jim..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

And yet, in the Shadowrun Game World, there are three Sniper Systems that are currently in use today... the Barret, the HK-PSG and the Walther MA-2100... so your argument does not hold a lot of water... and also, just because the system has been in use for 25 years doe not mean that it has not been updated in that 25 years... materials change, weapons become more accurate, but the weapon design remains the same...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Smokeskin]

Really, people tend to vastly overestimate the effectiveness of knives based on their Hollywood and game representation as instant, silent killers - sure stabwounds and deep cuts are nasty, but if you are too busy to notice you got stabbed nothing will happen, unlinke hat happens when you get a burst in the chest or get clubbed on the head.

In the real world, bullets aren't instant killers either. Even if you do put a few rounds in the attacker's chest before he reaches you, he could still be on his feet for over 10 seconds, stabbing away at you, before he's incapacitated.

It is also little consolation that a knife isn't an "instant" killer if you still die from bleeding out.

[Whipstitch]

I stopped thinking of most of the people who do this as power gamers ages ago; I've simply had too many different people stick to one weapon far too many times to simply write it off as spontaneous min-maxing. Skills are pretty damn expensive in SR4 and there's very little incentive to grabbing multiple firearm skills unless the GM starts inventing disincentives. Many players figure this out pretty quickly, and so secondary firearm skills are one of the first things to go if a player sheets up a concept and find that they need another half dozen BP or so to really make it sing. As such, I kind of find this to be a failure of the system to encourage what I want to see in a game as opposed to players shamelessly min-maxing.

So if it's really just a problem of verisimilitude I would consider trying the carrot over the stick. Talk to the players and see if offering a discount on the Firearms group or maybe even collapsing the group into a single skill would be enough for them to consider a more varied weapon load out. I've found that most players will choose the weapon that makes sense for the job if given the opportunity to do so without paying through the nose with precious BP and Karma. And frankly, the rules are so lacking in granularity that in practice the characters don't really end up all that much more powerful anyway; using the "right" gun for every situation typically just means a extra box of damage or an extra die now and again. The only real drawback of going the "all-in-one" route is that you may find a situation in which the disarmed Face grabs the fallen Samurai's Alpha and goes all Rambo on people despite having a background that previously limited them to using pistols.

[Zyerne]

Part of the problem here is that Automatics is so versatile compared to the other two firearms.

One solution that's just occured to me is overlapping the groups a little and putting Machine pistol in Pistols and Automatics and Assault Rifle in Automatics and Longarms. Not sure how balanced that would wind up but would give a bit more scope to those not taking Automatics.

[Whipstitch]

I've experimented with a number of weapon group tweaks. Balance has never really ended up being a big problem, honestly. As you pointed out, Automatics are already so good that a player can already get a decent approximation of whatever they need for most situations with one skill anyway if they really want to. The biggest problem with Automatics is that you'd really want a good Palming pool since concealing machine pistols is obviously a lot harder than hiding a holdout, which really hurts for archetypes that may not want to go all in with Agility.

[Yerameyahu]

The house rule we've mostly agreed on is, yes, Machine Pistols in (Pistols). There are other things, but that's the biggest deal.

[Deadmannumberone]

My house rule is that the automatics skill applies when using full auto fire. Other changes Ive made are pistols is changed to short-arms and is used when firing a gun with one hand (SMGs have a -1 DP penalty, ARs -2, and shotguns/sport rifles -4) or double handed (both hands on the main grip, reduces the penalty by 1), and long-arms is used when firing a gun with an elongated grip (standard rifle grip). Heavy weapons is gone, grenade launchers and rocket launchers are exotic ranged weapons (with guided rockets using the electronic warfare skill), and gunnery is unchanged.

[Sengir]

Even if you do put a few rounds in the attacker's chest before he reaches you, he could still be on his feet for over 10 seconds, stabbing away at you, before he's incapacitated.

However in case of firearms this is the exception, not the rule. Because even if you don't hit something vital, the equivalent of a few solid punches to the chest will give the target some pause.

Knives on the other hand will only affect tissue which is directly in the path of the blade, transfer zero energy to the target, and you need to get uncomfortably close to hit the other guy. Sure, Mister Miyagi or a troll on K-10 can be very effective knife fighters, but if someone has that ammount of skills or raw force he doesn't need a knife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Remnar]

iirc Modern American riflemen are responsible for targets up to 300 meters away, and (if supported thusly) a squad's Dedicated Marksman is responsible for longer targets (out to 800m), as well as "high value" targets (machine gun crews, heavy weapon crews, etc), as well as all the standard duties of every other rifleman (i.e. CQB if necessary) They generally use either a base M4/M16, or something modified with additional optics and possibly a longer barrel. I have heard that they have been reactivating old M14's for this role, which I like since my M1A (civilian M14) is my favorite rifle, hands down.

I'd love for SR to give the old "Battle Rifle" some love, as they are usually somewhere between an AR and a sniper rifle, and have to be custom designed. I generally just say they are a custom sport rifle, with a 20-30 round mag.


I always wonder, in the age of smart links and eye mounted optics, what's the point of even scoping a rifle anyway. Why add that fragile and cumbersome glass when most combat vets will probably have cyber eye magnification and smart links. As long as the smart software is configured correctly, and your eyes haven't been damaged there would be no need to worrying about disturbing your optics during combat.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, we changed the Sport Rifles into Sport/Battle Rifles in my group. We just use things like the G3, FAL, M14 for inspiration.

I assumed that, for smartguns, sniper scoping *means* 'improved smartgun camera', and yes, we consider it (at best) an alternative to having improved eye- vision. Vision Magnification in your cybereyes means you can snipe with that smartgun, AFAIK.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

iirc Modern American riflemen are responsible for targets up to 300 meters away, and (if supported thusly) a squad's Dedicated Marksman is responsible for longer targets (out to 800m), as well as "high value" targets (machine gun crews, heavy weapon crews, etc), as well as all the standard duties of every other rifleman (i.e. CQB if necessary) They generally use either a base M4/M16, or something modified with additional optics and possibly a longer barrel. I have heard that they have been reactivating old M14's for this role, which I like since my M1A (civilian M14) is my favorite rifle, hands down.

I'd love for SR to give the old "Battle Rifle" some love, as they are usually somewhere between an AR and a sniper rifle, and have to be custom designed. I generally just say they are a custom sport rifle, with a 20-30 round mag.


I always wonder, in the age of smart links and eye mounted optics, what's the point of even scoping a rifle anyway. Why add that fragile and cumbersome glass when most combat vets will probably have cyber eye magnification and smart links. As long as the smart software is configured correctly, and your eyes haven't been damaged there would be no need to worrying about disturbing your optics during combat.

The standard US Marine Rifleman is trained to engage targets out to 500 meters as part of his basic package, and is required to qualify each year... But I do believe that the Army uses 300 Meters and Closer for their standards...

Scopes attached to the Rifle are zeroed to the particular Rifle... that would be a difficult prospect for an Optic mounted in the skull, since each and every rifle has minute differences that will affect the point of aim... that is why you have a dedicated smartgun link for each weapon... cannot get the benefits if there are no components that are dedicated specifically to the weapon in question...

Keep the Faith

[Smokeskin]

Even if you do put a few rounds in the attacker's chest before he reaches you, he could still be on his feet for over 10 seconds, stabbing away at you, before he's incapacitated.

However in case of firearms this is the exception, not the rule. Because even if you don't hit something vital, the equivalent of a few solid punches to the chest will give the target some pause.

It is not the exception. People don't just stop because it hurts. "A few solid punches to the chest" doesn't give the target some pause. Even in something as trivial as sparring, it doesn't work - hurts like hell, and lack of oxygen becomes an issue after a while, but it doesn't prevent you from moving or throwing more punches. With the adrenaline pumping in a life-and-death situation, people will ignore even more pain.

Even a 60 pound deer won't reliably drop from a .308 win expanding hit that takes out heart and lungs, most of the time it'll run quite a distance before dropping. Sure, many humans are weaker than animals and get scared and faint when getting hit, but a determined attacker with adrenaline pumping, you won't see them dropping just because they have a few small holes in their chest, even if they're actually dead.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

However in case of firearms this is the exception, not the rule. Because even if you don't hit something vital, the equivalent of a few solid punches to the chest will give the target some pause.


It is not the exception. People don't just stop because it hurts. "A few solid punches to the chest" doesn't give the target some pause. Even in something as trivial as sparring, it doesn't work - hurts like hell, and lack of oxygen becomes an issue after a while, but it doesn't prevent you from moving or throwing more punches. With the adrenaline pumping in a life-and-death situation, people will ignore even more pain.

Even a 60 pound deer won't reliably drop from a .308 win expanding hit that takes out heart and lungs, most of the time it'll run quite a distance before dropping. Sure, many humans are weaker than animals and get scared and faint when getting hit, but a determined attacker with adrenaline pumping, you won't see them dropping just because they have a few small holes in their chest, even if they're actually dead.

Indeed... thoguh by the same token, I have seen a dear poleaxed in place from the same fatal shot from a 30-30 Winchester... However, the running is indeed more common... So, the exception becomes immediate succumbing to the wound...

Keep the Faith

[Sengir]

It is not the exception. People don't just stop because it hurts. "A few solid punches to the chest" doesn't give the target some pause.

How about you do some bare-knuckle fighting with Mr. Valuev and then we talk again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's not about feeling pain or hitting something vital (or even pushing the target to the ground), just the simple transfer if kinetic energy/momentum at the receiving end of a punch.

[Smokeskin]

It's not about feeling pain or hitting something vital (or even pushing the target to the ground), just the simple transfer if kinetic energy/momentum at the receiving end of a punch.

So people have some "kinetic energy absorbed" counter, and when it reaches zero they pause? Where did you get this? Kinetic energy doesn't matter one single bit (though there is obviously a correlation between kinetic energy of the attack and the extent of your wounds). If you want to stop someone immediatedly, you can disrupt his mobility apparatus (snap bones, sever muscles, tendons or nerves) or hope he just gives up because it hurts too much. You might be able to find a few anecdotes, but other than that, you're going to have to wait until the guy passes out from oxygen deprevation due to low blood pressure.

The reality is that to stop that guy charging you with a knife, you need a headshot to stop him, which I would think of as very risky. Move sideways so he can't build momentum, get a few rounds in center mass, then handle him as best you can in melee (even if he doesn't just bleed out while you try not getting cut, overpowering a gun shot victim should be doable).

[Sengir]

Kinetic energy doesn't matter one single bit (though there is obviously a correlation between kinetic energy of the attack and the extent of your wounds). If you want to stop someone immediatedly, you can disrupt his mobility apparatus (snap bones, sever muscles, tendons or nerves) or hope he just gives up because it hurts too much.

Like I said, do a few rounds of bare-knuckle fighting with a heavyweight boxer and tell me that again...once you woke up from your non-existing knockout.

Or do you want to tell me that a boxer goes to the ground because of the blood loss from a few lacerations?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like I said, do a few rounds of bare-knuckle fighting with a heavyweight boxer and tell me that again...once you woke up from your non-existing knockout.

Or do you want to tell me that a boxer goes to the ground because of the blood loss from a few lacerations?

How many antagonists in Shadowrun are professional Boxers like Mike Tyson? I mean really... fist fights tend to go on a long time... unless someone gets lucky and gets a knock out of some kind... hell, even Boxing matches go on for seconds or minutes (Mike Tyson Fights) to up to 45 minutes/an hour. Most fights do not even end in a Knockout in boxing if memory serves...

Most Shadowrun fights are LONG over before that time...

Even gunshot victims can take hours to actually bleed out if unattended, thoguh it could also happen in a very short time frame if vital vessels/organs have been compromised...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Smokeskin]

Like I said, do a few rounds of bare-knuckle fighting with a heavyweight boxer and tell me that again...once you woke up from your non-existing knockout.

Or do you want to tell me that a boxer goes to the ground because of the blood loss from a few lacerations?

Yes, I'm quite aware you can knock people out. You don't even need to be a heavy-weight boxer bare-knuckling. I'm 165 pounds and I've knocked a guy out with sparring gloves on (thicker padding than ring gloves).

But the thing is, you said punches to the chest - now you're conveniently switching to punches to the head.

And before you derail this completely, this isn't about boxing - you made an erroneous claim about the stopping power of bullets, then used an erroneous boxing analogy to back it.