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> No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles
Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 11 2010, 03:22 AM) *
Guys, some people fall down when shot or stabbed or punched, and some folks don't.

Training sometimes helps, but sometimes it does not.

There have been cases where a totally untrained average joe keeps going after getting hit multiple times, and the brawny professional soldier drops a second after getting hit once.

The human body is simply unpredictable on how it will react to trauma.


I completely agree. Lots of stuff can happen.

The point is that the only type of shot that incapacitates people reliably is a CNS hit. Torso shots might stop an attacker rushing (and the chance is a lot higher than him tripping), but there's a very good chance it won't. The conclusion is that your response has to factor in that even when you double tap him COM, you're still going to have to handle his charge - move sideways so he can't build momentum, get obstacles between him and you, stay out of his range, prepare for melee. It is a VERY bad move to just stand your ground and fire your weapon, mistakenly feeling confident that you will stop him in his tracks.
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 11 2010, 12:05 AM) *
I don't see why it is not saying much.


Because people only very rarely trip over their own feet. Certainly not something I'd rely on if a guy was charging me with a knife.
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 10 2010, 09:58 PM) *
"you can shove someone to the ground without falling over, so bullets can knock people down without doing the same to the shooter"

Fixed for you. Your problem seems to be that that you consider the human body to be the equivalent of a solid, immovable object like a block of concrete, which can only be moved or toppled over with a clearly defined force applied at a certain point/angle. The reality is a _bit_ more complex, which is why walking upright is such a complicated excercise.

QUOTE
You've moved on to someone charging you with a knife getting toppled by the "sheer force of the impact" from getting hit with a bullet

Moved on? That was my point from the beginning, and apart from some ridiculous strawmen with "kinetic energy counters" and accusing me of hollywood science, your stopping power against this point has been kinda limited. Pretending that it is an all new point which I only came up with after you blasted some other imaginary claims makes your arguments even more pathetic.

I'd say you watched some Discovery Channel show about snipers which basically said "to immobilize somebody you need to take out the CNS or cause a hemorrhagic shock" and now feel you have all the answers. Too bad you don't really have understood the underlying mechanics, just "science says this, I'm right, fuck you", so now you are trying to apply this knowledge to everything which is somehow might be connected to terminal ballistics.

Oh, and when are you planning to finally answer my question?
QUOTE (Sengir @ May 10 2010, 11:15 AM) *
How about you do the same and explain to me what happens when somebody runs straight into a punch, without invalidating your own claims?
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 09:38 AM) *
Moved on? That was my point from the beginning, and apart from some ridiculous strawmen with "kinetic energy counters" and accusing me of hollywood science, your stopping power against this point has been kinda limited. Pretending that it is an all new point which I only came up with after you blasted some other imaginary claims makes your arguments even more pathetic.


Ok, if your point all along was that the force of the impact is what knocks people down, by simply toppling them, that's still wrong. It just doesn't happen. The forces involved in relation to the momentum of the human body is just WAY too low - and shooting someone in the chest is pretty much center of mass, the point where you have the least chance of toppling someone.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 09:38 AM) *
I'd say you watched some Discovery Channel show about snipers which basically said "to immobilize somebody you need to take out the CNS or cause a hemorrhagic shock" and now feel you have all the answers. Too bad you don't really have understood the underlying mechanics, just "science says this, I'm right, fuck you", so now you are trying to apply this knowledge to everything which is somehow might be connected to terminal ballistics.


I was a soldier, and I'm a hunter. I took advanced physics and graduated with an A+, which gives me an adequate understanding of mechanics. I probably also watched some discovery show about snipers, and I'm able to search the web and read. Each and everyone of those areas yields the same answer: people don't get toppled over when hit by bullets.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 09:38 AM) *
How about you do the same and explain to me what happens when somebody runs straight into a punch, without invalidating your own claims?


If someone runs past me and I catch them with a hook to center mass, you slow down the runner a bit. If I'm standing in the way and throwing a straight to center mass, pretty much the same as if he'd run into my straight arm, except it would be harder on my arm. A forearm strike (or a hook with lots of body behind it), somewhere in between. Overall, going for center mass at someone running, it might slow him a few percent by punching, but it certainly won't stop him - for that you need to have your body mass behind it and then you're looking at what is basically bracing against a tackle.
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 11 2010, 10:22 AM) *
I was a soldier, and I'm a hunter. I took advanced physics and graduated with an A+, which gives me an adequate understanding of mechanics.

Posting credentials in internet discussions is pointless, since you cannot prove them anyway. What counts are sound arguments.

QUOTE
If someone runs past me and I catch them with a hook to center mass, you slow down the runner a bit.

And why does it do that?
a) blood loss
b) pain
c) CNS failure

And remember, any other options are invalid unless you want to go into "physics fairy land" or "hollywood science"...
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 11:38 AM) *
Posting credentials in internet discussions is pointless, since you cannot prove them anyway. What counts are sound arguments.


You brought up my credentials, not me. When you say I'm getting my opinion from discovery channel, I'm going to reply with where I'm coming from.


QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 11:38 AM) *
And why does it do that?
a) blood loss
b) pain
c) CNS failure

And remember, any other options are invalid unless you want to go into "physics fairy land" or "hollywood science"...


It is a matter of scale. Obviously there is momentum in a bullet and a punch, and this will affect someone getting hit. But the momentum (especially for the bullet) is so low that it hardly has any effect, especially when directed at center mass.

The "physics fairy land" and "hollywood science" comes in when you claim that the same exagerated effects we see in action movies apply in real life. It doesn't. Getting hit by a bullet won't topple you anymore than the recoil from firing the weapon topple the shooter. Getting hit by a punch while running will stop you dead in your tracks as little as throwing one against a stationary target sends both puncher and target careening off in opposite directions.

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Waya
post May 11 2010, 11:40 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg

At 2:15 a guy in body armor gets shot while standing on one foot by a 7.62x51 NATO round. He doesn't get knocked down. That really should answer the knockdown-power argument.
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 11 2010, 11:50 AM) *
You brought up my credentials, not me.

Uhm, you accused me of getting my info from hollywood and fairytales

QUOTE
yadda yadda

Trying to evade an answer? Come one, only three options, it's not that hard...
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 01:08 PM) *
Uhm, you accused me of getting my info from hollywood and fairytales


Well, just name-calling back doesn't really correct that does it? You're very welcome to tell me where you get your info from. I can deduct that you're not getting it from real world experience or any understanding of physics, so I presumed movies and fantasy.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 01:08 PM) *
Trying to evade an answer? Come one, only three options, it's not that hard...


I provided a full and complete answer. As I've said all along, there is a transfer of momentum, and it has nothing to do with the 3 options you listed. The problem is that it is very small - you're AT LEAST an order of magnitude wrong for the effects you talk about to occur.

I see it a lot from people that have a superficial knowledge of science while never really having dug into the subject. They don't appreciate magnitude. Physics is a hard and accurate science that provide very clear boundaries for what is possible and what is not.

If you take a 13g .45 bullet travelling at 330 m/s, it has a momentum of 4.3 kg m/s. A 75 kg man running at 7 m/s has a momentum of 525 kg m/s. That's a 0.8% reduction in speed per hit - you're not going to topple anyone with that. Not that you had to do these calculations, you could simply imagine a man running while firing his .45 ahead - you wouldn't expect that to slow or topple him, would you?

A 3kg forearm coming at 8 m/s has a momentum of 24 kg m/s. That gives an 8.2% reduction in speed, assuming a non-elastic impact. 5 times as much as the double tap, but still not enough to stop the guy.

Have you watched the video Waya posted? Do you think it is fake, since it clearly proves you wrong?

There is also something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#Knockback
Although popularized in television and movies, and commonly referred to as "true stopping power" by novice or uneducated proponents of large powerful calibers such as .44 Magnum, the effect of knockback from a handgun and indeed most personal weapons is largely a myth. The momentum of the so-called "manstopper" .45 ACP bullet [...] is simply incapable of arresting a running target's forward momentum.
[...] knockback is not possible with a handgun bullet


That's some solid calculations, there's real world footage, there's links to wiki.


Please, Sengir, present something, anything, that supports your idea that the "force of the impact" of a bullet will stop someone charging you.

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knightofargh
post May 11 2010, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 11 2010, 08:18 AM) *
That's some solid calculations, there's real world footage, there's links to wiki.
Not that anything on wiki is guaranteed accurate, but the math doesn't lie. If you want to knock someone over, hit them with a mass greater than their own. Might I suggest a car?

Humans are both fragile and difficult to kill at the same time. The most effective ways to kill are to disrupt the CNS (crashing the CPU) or to cause exsanguination. Even with massive trauma and blood loss a determined attacker can keep going for several minutes until the brain starves from oxygen deprivation.

As stated earlier, most one-stop shots are psychosomatic. We are socialized that a bullet kills instantly, so our minds often make it so.
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 11 2010, 01:18 PM) *
As I've said all along, there is a transfer of momentum

This was your orignal answer converning momentum and KE


QUOTE
If you take a 13g .45 bullet travelling at 330 m/s, it has a momentum of 4.3 kg m/s. A 75 kg man running at 7 m/s has a momentum of 525 kg m/s. That's a 0.8% reduction in speed per hit - you're not going to topple anyone with that. Not that you had to do these calculations, you could simply imagine a man running while firing his .45 ahead - you wouldn't expect that to slow or topple him, would you?

A 3kg forearm coming at 8 m/s has a momentum of 24 kg m/s. That gives an 8.2% reduction in speed, assuming a non-elastic impact. 5 times as much as the double tap, but still not enough to stop the guy.

A simple experiment: Jog next to somebody, and when he does not expect it shove him forward slightly. Even tough the relative momentum of your arm is close to neglectible, the subject of our practical experiment will still most likely hit the dirt, while the equally strong "recoil" will not make you do the same. And if a deer gets shot while running (and does not roll over right away), it will still stumble for a few moments before running off even though a practiced shooter will barely flinch when firing.
Like I said earlier, the human body is not a statically determinate solid system, where you can simply calculate which forces apply and decide if the structure falls over. Especially not when we are moving forward on our hind legs
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 03:04 PM) *
This was your orignal answer converning momentum and KE


I fail to see your point? In that post I wrote KE didn't matter (except for the obvious correlation to the extent of injuries), and I stand by that. I didn't write "the bullet doesn't transfer momentum", just that the amount of momentum is in no way significant relative to stopping the attacker.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 03:04 PM) *
A simple experiment: Jog next to somebody, and when he does not expect it shove him forward slightly. Even tough the relative momentum of your arm is close to neglectible, the subject of our practical experiment will still most likely hit the dirt, while the equally strong "recoil" will not make you do the same. And if a deer gets shot while running (and does not roll over right away), it will still stumble for a few moments before running off even though a practiced shooter will barely flinch when firing.
Like I said earlier, the human body is not a statically determinate solid system, where you can simply calculate which forces apply and decide if the structure falls over. Especially not when we are moving forward on our hind legs


So you propose you can shoot someone in the back when he's charging you?

Because the problem with your example is that for someone running, push them in the back so they go off balance, gravity will work to pull them further off balance - it is an unstable system. A push from the front will also put them off balance, but here gravity will work to pull the runner back into balance - it remains a stable system.

A shove also carries a lot more momentum than a bullet.


I asked it before, and I'm getting very curious - where is it you have this understanding of the effects of bullet impacts from? Have you seen documentaries or read about it? Shot anything living? Shot a weapon at all? I'm guessing you have no solid info or experience at all, which is why I think it is fascinating that you keep on defending your position. You have no idea of what you're talking about, yet you keep on digging a deeper hole for yourself. Wouldn't it be easier to just be open to the idea that someone knew something you didn't, and only have to wrong once?
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 11 2010, 03:47 PM) *
So you propose you can shoot someone in the back when he's charging you?

If you prefer elbow the guy into the front, or have some drunk charge towards you and greet him with a punch. The result will always be the same, the target is thrown off balance and stumbles - which is just what you want when somebody is coming towards you with a knife.

QUOTE
A shove also carries a lot more momentum than a bullet.

I said "shove him slightly", not "do a rugby tackle"

QUOTE
I asked it before, and I'm getting very curious - where is it you have this understanding of the effects of bullet impacts from? Have you seen documentaries or read about it? Shot anything living? Shot a weapon at all? I'm guessing you have no solid info or experience at all, which is why I think it is fascinating that you keep on defending your position.

Hm, mister science asks for unverifiable claims of annecdotal evidence? Y'know, whenever I want to give up on this topic you come up with another fun fact (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Waya
post May 11 2010, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 10:55 AM) *
If you prefer elbow the guy into the front, or have some drunk charge towards you and greet him with a punch. The result will always be the same, the target is thrown off balance and stumbles - which is just what you want when somebody is coming towards you with a knife.

If a single punch is going to make somebody stumble under any conditions other than a sucker punch from behind then you either throw a punch that none of the black belts I work out with can match or you know some weak drunks.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 10:55 AM) *
I said "shove him slightly", not "do a rugby tackle"



Let's say you shove somebody at an incredibly slow 1 meter per second. Let's not even factor in that a shove is going to use more than just your arms and use Smokeskin's 3kg estimate for an arm. 2*3kg * 1 m/s= 6 N/s. Assuming you are wearing a vest that can stop a .45 acp round is .015kg*250m/s= 3.75 N/s. In other words, a light push imparts almost twice as much momentum as the bullet. Even so, most people will stumble a couple of steps and then regain their balance and keep going from the shove even if they aren't under the influence of adrenaline.
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Smokeskin
post May 11 2010, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 04:55 PM) *
If you prefer elbow the guy into the front, or have some drunk charge towards you and greet him with a punch. The result will always be the same, the target is thrown off balance and stumbles - which is just what you want when somebody is coming towards you with a knife.


That hardly always happens - I'd say rarely even. And you're talking about punching, which by the numbers above carry 10 times more momentum than a .45 bullet.



QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 04:55 PM) *
I said "shove him slightly", not "do a rugby tackle"


A rugby tackle would carry over 100 times the momentum of a bullet - there's ample room between the two for a slight shove to be less than a rugby tackle and more than a bullet.

And if you are really thinking about something the level of a bullet, why not just use the example of a jogger firing a pistol? Then you'd be saying that someone jogging and shooting a pistol would fall over from the recoil, which is obviously ridiculous, even if it came as surprise.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 04:55 PM) *
Hm, mister science asks for unverifiable claims of annecdotal evidence? Y'know, whenever I want to give up on this topic you come up with another fun fact (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


So you're saying that you position is actually an unverifiable claim? Even though I'd say it was easily falsifiable, if you're presenting unverifiability as a defense of your opinion, you're out of reach.


Bottom line is, you have done zilch to back your claim of what hits to the chest do, except display a blatant ignorance of the mechanics involved (for example with your constant comparisons to punches and shoves that are an order of magnitude above bullets in terms of momentum).
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Sengir
post May 11 2010, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Waya @ May 11 2010, 05:32 PM) *
If a single punch is going to make somebody stumble under any conditions other than a sucker punch from behind then you either throw a punch that none of the black belts I work out with can match or you know some weak drunks.

When fighting you normally are in a stable position with a lower center of mass and tense muscles. A running person will already kiss the floor if a floor tile is two centimeters lower than the rest and this "hole" is not noticed before. Walking upright is a highly complicated affair, and even small disturbances screw up the whole system.

@Smokeskin: Maybe look up what this strange thing called "annecdotal evidence" is, it might help you understand that sentance...
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psychophipps
post May 11 2010, 09:37 PM
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As for the sniper rifles = CQB thing, we ruled that once you get into range of a melee weapon or unarmed attack it swaps from the firearms skill to the other combat skill being used. It's a lot harder to "just shoot someone" when they're punching you in the head than most people believe. We did, however, add a Martial Arts technique that would allow you to ignore this effect. It did a great job to help balance things a bit for adepts and forced the combat guys to expand their skills a bit to more closely reflect the reality that gun skills really aren't the one and only answer in combat.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 12 2010, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ May 10 2010, 11:45 PM) *
My father operated on that premise, I was present on three occasions when he bagged deer with +400 yard head shots with a Ruger falling block rifle in the .270 caliber. That results in an instant drop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You run across somebody jacked up on PCP and you could be in for a real rough time.

Somebody talked about movie gunfights...
In my book the all-time worse one has to be the Lethal Weapon (can't remember which version) where they shoot the bad guy...through the frickin dozer blade with 'armor piercing' 9mm rounds! I want those bullets in Shadowrun! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)



"Cop Killers"... Load me up some for Shadowrun I say... Hell, they made AV ammo look weak...

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Whipstitch
post May 12 2010, 02:59 AM
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.
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KarmaInferno
post May 12 2010, 04:27 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 11 2010, 10:55 AM) *
I said "shove him slightly", not "do a rugby tackle"


Dude, a simple shove transfers a hell of a lot more force to the target than a bullet does.

Note that I sad "transfers", not "has".

It is true that a bullet has considerable force behind it. It is, however, acting across a much smaller area than a hand would be.

The idea that a bullet hitting someone will all by itself knock someone down with the power of it's impact is, in fact, just pure hollywood fantasy.

On someone who is unbalanced, you MIGHT be able to cause the guy to trip if you hit him in an unstable spot like his legs, but that's not the force of the bullet making him fall down, that's gravity and his own momentum doing the job.

Someone running straight at you, hitting him center mass will have next to zero effect.

Hell, a LOT of folks that get shot don't even realize it's happened till some time afterwards, the adrenalin rush of combat alone will mask feeling the impact force.


-np
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Sengir
post May 12 2010, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 12 2010, 04:27 AM) *
Dude, a simple shove transfers a hell of a lot more force to the target than a bullet does.

If you are talking about force (as opposed to momentum) than no, certainly not. O(v^2)...


QUOTE
but that's not the force of the bullet making him fall down, that's gravity and his own momentum doing the job.

..and when somebody dies from a shot wound the bullet itself is not responsible for the death, but the blood loss or damage it caused...does that mean bullets don't kill people?
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Smokeskin
post May 12 2010, 09:25 AM
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Sengir, instead of nitpick at a few minor and irrelevant points, how about you comment on some of the relevant stuff instead?

PS: As KarmaInferno stated it, his comment about transfer of force was poorly worded, but the heart of it was real enough - if we assume that the shove and the bullet both affect a change in momentum over the same timeframe, the shove IS done with a lot more force. And force is certainly not O(v^2) - force is totally unreliant on the magnitude of v, this is pretty much the basis of the whole moving frame of reference thing. I think you're confusing kinetic energy and force?
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Sengir
post May 12 2010, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ May 12 2010, 10:25 AM) *
Sengir, instead of nitpick at a few minor and irrelevant points, how about you comment on some of the relevant stuff instead?

Like your idea of runing humans as rigid structures moving on rails? Or your wish for unveriafiable war stories providing some annecdotal evidence? Well, if you wish I can come up with dozens of real or imagined stories to prove my point and claim any credentials you like, because that would be so scientific...


QUOTE
And force is certainly not O(v^2) - force is totally unreliant on the magnitude of v, this is pretty much the basis of the whole moving frame of reference thing. I think you're confusing kinetic energy and force?

And if a body with a certain kinetic energy collides with something else (without deformation and anything) the energy does what...?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 12 2010, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 12 2010, 05:41 AM) *
And if a body with a certain kinetic energy collides with something else (without deformation and anything) the energy does what...?


It depends upon the impacted body... assuming no deformation like you indicated, if the body collides into something that is solid enough to STOP the body, the all kinetic force is then imparted to the object. However, if the object is not solid enough to stop the body at all, and is in fact minimally resistant, thebody will pass through the object with little residual damage to the object, as the remaining Kinetic Energy is spent on something esle other than the Object. Now, if the Body and teh object fall somewhere in the middle, some of the kinetic energy will be imparted to the object, and depending upon how resistant that object is, more or less of the Kinetic Energy will have an effect...

In relation to Forearms... the best round would be powerful enough to penetrate body armor, using little of its Kinetic Energy to do so, and yet not over penetrate the person wearing the body armor with all the force of the remaining Kinetic Energy being dissipated within the body of the person... note that this is rare occurrence... Pistol rounds against good body armor tend to not penetrate the armor at all... when they do, they generally have more than enough energy remaining to pass through the body into the back armor, unless something critical happens... and then High Velocity Rifles (as in most common Rifle Cartridges) are just way overpowered to impart all of their energy on the impacted body, as they generally spend most of their energy on the landscape after passing through...

And then you have freak accidents:
I think I related the story of the shooting that happened on the Base I was stationed at. Guy, wearing body armor, gets shot with a .45 slug. Unfortunately for him, it enters his body from teh left and passes through his left arm and into the chest cavity, where it bounced off of his rib. at that point the slug passed through the front and back of his chest cavity 4 times, impacting the body armor on front and back, before exiting his torso through his right arm (They found the bullet in the passenger door next to him)... So, sum total of the number of holes in this poor kid... 2 Left Arm, 6 in the Chest (2 Front, 2 Back and 2 left/right), and then 2 Right Arm... Total of 10 holes in the body, from a single slug. Notice that the slug could not pass through the armor at any point (it entered between the front and back plates on the left and exited through the front and back plates on the right, and never once actually penetrated the vest itself front to back, though it should have been "caught" by the armor plates once it impacted one, this did not happen, as none of the plate impacts were straight on, but angled)... The vest would have stopped the round had he been facing in the direction of the bullets travel. As it was, both of his lungs were, for the most part, destroyed and his heart was pulped... he survived long enough to talk to his comrades as they rushed him to the hospital (he was not moving of course) and he died 45 minutes later, regardless of the steps taken to keep him alive (Hard to live without functional lungs and heart, plus a myriad of other severely damaged organs).

Point is... Pistol rounds are generally less than optimal for taking someone down who is wearing body armor, unless you are using superior ammunition and their armor is not so good. Rifle ammunition tends to over penetrate more often than not and expend their energy on the environment rather than the person targeted... There are many documented cases of unarmored individuals taking many multiple hits from both pistol and rifle rounds (both in war time and in civilian circumstances) and still keep on coming... anecdotal evidence maybe, but evidence nonetheless, and easily verifiable.

On a more personal note... when my father was a cop, he shot a guy several times who was closing with him with a knife, using a Colt 45 (ended up with 4 shots COM), and he still sufferred the ignominy of taking a knife to the side before the assailant went down for the count... these things can and do happen, so you should always be prepared to deal with such a situation, rather than believe that your Double tap to the Chest will be good enough...

Just Sayin...

keep the Faith
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Sengir
post May 12 2010, 05:17 PM
Post #175


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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 12 2010, 02:14 PM) *
There are many documented cases of unarmored individuals taking many multiple hits from both pistol and rifle rounds (both in war time and in civilian circumstances) and still keep on coming... anecdotal evidence maybe, but evidence nonetheless, and easily verifiable.

Sure, just like there are many documented cases of people who took a single shot and basically were out before hitting the ground. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The question is which of these two extremes is closer to being the exception. Given that such discussions always yield the same two or three "he just kept coming" stories and that the standard tactic for such confrontations still is a double tap instead of "run and hide" I'd say the answer is kinda obvious, but oh well...


And so that Smokeskin is satisfied, here's some annecdotal evidence: The German police used FMJ rounds until ~2000, because for a long time the police was planned to be used as reserve troops for the day Ivan would come walzing through the Fulda Gap (heck, until the 70s the average beat cop was trained on the MG 42 and the federal police still is technically allowed to use hand grenades). Anyway, in 2000 the police union and several politicians were lobbying heavily for new ammo, with several examples of the old rounds failing to stop someone, or innocent bystanders getting hit due to overpenetration...but the interesting thing is that it always were the same two or three stories making the rounds. Even when talking to officers you just heard the same stories.
Now if the unstoppable zombie charge is the rule, how come even with the crappy old FMJ rounds there so few known cases? Granted, we have less than 20 people lethally shot by police each year and German FOI laws are a joke, but if dropping someone with FMJ rounds from a hnadgun was that hard there should still be far more known cases.
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