No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is not the exception. People don't just stop because it hurts. "A few solid punches to the chest" doesn't give the target some pause. Even in something as trivial as sparring, it doesn't work - hurts like hell, and lack of oxygen becomes an issue after a while, but it doesn't prevent you from moving or throwing more punches. With the adrenaline pumping in a life-and-death situation, people will ignore even more pain.

Seems logical to me...

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

Except when they don't.

I mean, shit guys, I'm a paramedic, and for every iron man I've seen there has been 2 or 3 complete wimps.


There's a difference between accurate assumptions and appropriate assumptions. It's appropriate for police officers to assume that the guy they are shooting could beat the crap out of Rambo and that the utmost caution is required-- you don't start shooting people because you think there's a less dangerous way out of the situation, after all. That's not the same as saying that all or even most perps won't go down to 2 or 3 shots. Whether someone continues fighting is a lot more case-by-case than that. That's why I'd rather see the existing rules modified to have situations in which people might give up the fight if they screw up a body+will test rather than have binary knockdown rules.

[Daylen]

so who here has actual experience shooting critters in the 100-300lb range?

[Bob Lord of Evil]

so who here has actual experience shooting critters in the 100-300lb range?

Elk, moose, black bear (with a Bow), even a mountain lion. What would you like to know? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The first three are all heavier than 300 lbs. though.

Problem is wild animals tend to want to stay away from humans. Mountain lions though...they seem to think that we are pretty tasty on occassion.

[Deadmannumberone]

The issue here seems to be that the RAW creates a more Hollywoodesque feel to knockdown, when some people would prefer a more realistic mechanic that incorporates the psychosomatic response. Perhaps I can give a start to a solution (needs tweaking);

Knockdown: Use half the attack's base DV vs BOD, with a REF check to increase effective BOD if necessary.

Feinting: If a character takes more damage in one attack than their WIL, they are rendered unconscious until they can succeed on a WIL (1) roll, which can be made up to once per IP.

Elk, moose, black bear (with a Bow), even a mountain lion. What would you like to know? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The first three are all heavier than 300 lbs. though.

Problem is wild animals tend to want to stay away from humans. Mountain lions though...they seem to think that we are pretty tasty on occassion.

Using wild animals is slightly misleading, as they have a fight/flight response to almost everything, while many humans have a fight/flight/surrender response to other humans.

[Whipstitch]

I've shot quite a few big deer in my time and the responses vary. Usually they go down really fast if the shot was good, otherwise they keep running. Granted we're talking about a heftier firearm as well.

[Daylen]

Using wild animals is slightly misleading, as they have a fight/flight response to almost everything, while many humans have a fight/flight/surrender response to other humans.

and how many humans have you shot?

[Deadmannumberone]

and how many humans have you shot?

How many 150 pound deer/elk go down to one 9mm round?

[Daylen]

I'm not sure as I have never heard of anyone (including me) used a 9mm as a hunting round. I have heard some decent results for 45 acp however; hopefully this year I can find a SMLE for a decent price to convert to 45 acp to try on whitetail this year. So I don't know but I'd like to find out at least for 45.

[Deadmannumberone]

For small game the .45 ACP is acceptable, however it isn't great against animals much over 100 pounds, and few animals over 200 pounds will even be phased by it. The 9mm is slightly better at getting a fatal strike on 100+ pound animals, but it's almost guaranteed that you will be tracking it before it actually ends up dying.

[Daylen]

small game with 45 acp? what are you calling small game feral pigs? Coon and under are too small for that as far as I'm concerned.

[Deadmannumberone]

Small game is under 200 pounds. Coon and the like are varmint.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

and how many humans have you shot?

Evidence (anecdotal or empirical) being what it is, you only need to have shot one... at which point you will have expereince to draw upon...

As for Animals at 150 lbs and up? Many... they vary... you can even hit two identical animals in the same place, with the same damage, and they will often act completely differently... Sometimes they will drop like they have been poleaxed, and other times they will run 200-300 yards and then drop, and sometimes they will attack the shooter (Wild Pigs, Bear, Various Large Cats, etc)...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For small game the .45 ACP is acceptable, however it isn't great against animals much over 100 pounds, and few animals over 200 pounds will even be phased by it. The 9mm is slightly better at getting a fatal strike on 100+ pound animals, but it's almost guaranteed that you will be tracking it before it actually ends up dying.

On a base that I will not name, here in the United States, I can attest that a deer will drop from a Colt .45 ACP round (nothing fancy, just standard military issue; fortunately I do not remember the names of the individual parties involved)... happened twice, and the distance was between 25-30 Meters each time...

Keep the Faith

[kzt]

I'm not sure as I have never heard of anyone (including me) used a 9mm as a hunting round. I have heard some decent results for 45 acp however; hopefully this year I can find a SMLE for a decent price to convert to 45 acp to try on whitetail this year. So I don't know but I'd like to find out at least for 45.

I've heard of guys who killed an attacking grizzly with a 9mm glock, a 10mm glock, a .357 revolver etc. NOT recommended and not 100% successful, but it has worked for some people.

[Sengir]

How many 150 pound deer/elk go down to one 9mm round?

Depends on how long that 9mm round is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

Yeah, .350 Remington Magnum will take down most deer. And most grizzlies, polar bears, tigers and lions.

[Sengir]

Well, I was thinking of the 9.3mm Bennecke...just in case one of those grizzlies happens to be a shapeshifter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Daylen]

Evidence (anecdotal or empirical) being what it is, you only need to have shot one... at which point you will have expereince to draw upon...

I'll agree with that. I really stated my question rhetorically in the hopes of any without experience on a topic to not argue about something they know little to nothing of. A pet peev of mine I developed from hearing too many people talk, as an authority, on firearms who own and have barely fired any firearms. Or do the same for gunsmithing when they have not changed oil in their vehicle much less repaired a firearm.

and now I'm going off topic, sry...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll agree with that. I really stated my question rhetorically in the hopes of any without experience on a topic to not argue about something they know little to nothing of. A pet peev of mine I developed from hearing too many people talk, as an authority, on firearms who own and have barely fired any firearms. Or do the same for gunsmithing when they have not changed oil in their vehicle much less repaired a firearm.

and now I'm going off topic, sry...

Hey, No Problems...

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

Personally, I think it'd be a real mistake to push people out of the conversation just because they haven't actually shot anything to death before. Being able to perform an action doesn't necessarily mean you understand the mechanics of it, after all. Further, anecdotal experiences tend to be wildly contradictory-- despite all of the killing that has happened throughout human history, trauma and the will to live continues to surprise even the most experienced doctors, yet at the same time every year people break their necks by being careless when they go to sit down in a chair. Besides, people tend to defend their views past the point of absurdity even when they don't have a personal stake like "What, you expect me not to believe my own eyes?" entering into things.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally, I think it'd be a real mistake to push people out of the conversation just because they haven't actually shot anything to death before. Being able to perform an action doesn't necessarily mean you understand the mechanics of it, after all. Further, anecdotal experiences tend to be wildly contradictory-- despite all of the killing that has happened throughout human history, trauma and the will to live continues to surprise even the most experienced doctors, yet at the same time every year people break their necks by being careless when they go to sit down in a chair. Besides, people tend to defend their views past the point of absurdity even when they don't have a personal stake like "What, you expect me not to believe my own eyes?" entering into things.

Very true... and very well put...

Keep the Faith

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Every where that I have hunted had a minimum foot lbs. energy rating for allowed calibers. The 9mm Para, to my knowledge does NOT meet that requirement, nor does the .45 ACP, even the 5.56mm NATO does not meet that minimum requirement for deer.

Caliber that I used to take big game with, 7mm Rem Magnum, excellent energy, good ballistic coefficient with a boat tail bullet, flat trajectory, and not so much kick that it would knock my fillings out when I shot it.

Whitetail deer and antelope, I would shoot a .270 Winchester which is more than ample enough cartridge to take them.

I think that the real problem with hunting analogies comes down to the fact that the animals are NOT shooting back. That changes everything to my mind.


Do I believe that a single 9mm round will kill a person?
There are so many variables to that I don't really believe it can be answered definitively.

Distance, the greater the distance the more it favors the better trained individual (FBI say 10' is average, PMA study says 20').
Hit ratio, one study has come back and suggested that the hit ratio is closer to 68%.
First solid hit, he who lands it statistically is going to come out the winner.

[Shrike30]

Working as an EMT, I can attest from experience that people can survive multiple close range buckshot blasts, and they can die from a .22 in the abdomen. There's no magic caliber, no reliable killing performance... you can only swerve the odds in your favor when you aim more accurately, pick a larger caliber, or switch to an interesting ammunition type.

With that in mind, there's three ways to stop someone that occur to me.
1) CNS hits, while there's exceptions, are generally grossly disabling.
2) Hemorrhagic shock and loss of brain perfusion make it impossible to function. Getting someone into that state doesn't always happen quickly.
3) Structural hits that ruin the machinery of motion (a round breaking the hip, for example) will stop someone from moving. If that was the definition of "stop" you were looking for, it's a good and fast one.

The training I've had on tactical shooting gives three primary target areas: the brain, the upper chest, and the pelvis. The brain's reasoning is obvious, the upper chest gives you all of the vasculature off the top of the heart, the lungs and airway and the thoracic spine, and the pelvis gives you the hip and the iliac arteries. Pick a target area, double tap, pick another, double tap, repeat as necessary. Rather than relying on a particular mechanism of injury or a particular location (which might be armored or some other bizarre thing), spread the love around and give yourself the best chance you can.

[kzt]

Of course, the whole failure drill thing makes the big assumption that you hit with the first few bullets. The most common cause of bullets failing to stop someone is that you missed. As Pat Rogers once told me, "Missing faster doesn't help."