No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[Smokeskin]

Further, anecdotal experiences tend to be wildly contradictory-- despite all of the killing that has happened throughout human history, trauma and the will to live continues to surprise even the most experienced doctors, yet at the same time every year people break their necks by being careless when they go to sit down in a chair

Contradictory anecdotal experiences are not in conflict with the claim that "torso hit won't reliably and immediatedly incapacitate" though.

[Smokeskin]

Working as an EMT, I can attest from experience that people can survive multiple close range buckshot blasts, and they can die from a .22 in the abdomen. There's no magic caliber, no reliable killing performance...

The point in this discussion isn't whether they die or not - it is how fast they get incapacitated. A good shot to the heart is 100% fatal - but you can'tassume that the'll drop instantly, he could have 10-15 seconds of fight left in him. (Not saying you disagree with this, just pointing out that survival isn't the issue.)

[Yerameyahu]

We really don't care about that, though. SR4 already has wound mods. We (at some point) were talking about temporary knockdown. Although, originally it was about sniper rifles, so much for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Here is my take on the whole 10-15 seconds of life left after a sniper rifle hit to the torso...

If I am 1000 meters away and hit a troll in the chest with a round that is going to kill him in 10-15 seconds...do I really give a sh!t that he isn't going to drop immediately?
No, because he isn't going to be able to get to me in 10-15 seconds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, but we're talking about knockdown at close range. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Er, not 'how is best to cause knockdown', but 'does SR4 knockdown make sense/is it balanced/is it realistic/does it need tweaking/etc.'.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Claymore mine...because you didn't specify that the user had to survive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In RL I would opt for a 12 guage shotgun loaded w/ 00 buckshot, open choke. Even if they survive, are they going to keep coming towards you after the first hit.

In SR...I would go with a Ingram Smartgun X, 3-shot burst, EX-Explosive rounds...because it is classic SR.

[KarmaInferno]

In RL I would opt for a 12 guage shotgun loaded w/ 00 buckshot, open choke. Even if they survive, are they going to keep coming towards you after the first hit.

Here's the problem. Sometimes, even in real life, they DO.


-karma

[Earlydawn]

In RL I would opt for a 12 guage shotgun loaded w/ 00 buckshot, open choke. Even if they survive, are they going to keep coming towards you after the first hit.

Very curious why you'd go for an open choke; you're (potentially, depending on other factors) reducing the number of net hits for a greater hit probability that only really breaks even at long ranges. Granted, this isn't such a debilitating factor for 00 buck, but still - wide shotgun spread isn't the hit guarantee that the entertainment media makes it out to be.

[Teknobabel]

Re: battle rifles, my dad toted an FN FAL for his stint in the reserves back in the late 60's and loved it but for the goddamn recoil from the thing, even with it being semi auto. Great rifle, as long as you could get a grip on the recoil. 20 years after he was firing that I saw him firing a 416 rigby and he thought it was tame compared to the SLR (as an aside, the bloke that lent my dad the rigby was a game guide up in the northern territory for water buffalo, he carried the rigby for >100 metres and a 12 gauge with buckshot for the oh crap moments)

But you wouldn't want to use that in cqb because its just to unwieldy being 39" to 42" long.

If any of you yanks are ever in sydney, go over the mountains to the lithgow small arms factory museum and look over their collection of rifles, it's a massive collection and a big eye opener.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Karmainferno,
Facing an armed intruder in my house, I am more than content to let them run away if they want to and racking a round into a 12 guage shotgun would give most people pause. If that doesn't work and they are determined to try and kill me or my family well, a shotgun at close range (15') is pretty lethal.

Earlydawn,
At such close distances (again inside a house so 15' is a good averge) the open choke is going to open up the pattern by about 30-40% which is about a dinner plate. With a center mass hit, you have the chance of penetration through the heart, both lungs, windpipe, the major arteries and veins. The average 2 3/4" shell will hold about nine 00 buckshot, which is about a .33 caliber round, so nine chances to hit something important at 15' with a single pull of the trigger. With that said, in such an instance, I would grab the shotgun and the wife would call 911. I would not leave the master bedroom to engage the intruder and would be more than happy to wait for the police to arrive while I hold a defensive position.

[FriendoftheDork]

Karmainferno,
Facing an armed intruder in my house, I am more than content to let them run away if they want to and racking a round into a 12 guage shotgun would give most people pause. If that doesn't work and they are determined to try and kill me or my family well, a shotgun at close range (15') is pretty lethal.

Earlydawn,
At such close distances (again inside a house so 15' is a good averge) the open choke is going to open up the pattern by about 30-40% which is about a dinner plate. With a center mass hit, you have the chance of penetration through the heart, both lungs, windpipe, the major arteries and veins. The average 2 3/4" shell will hold about nine 00 buckshot, which is about a .33 caliber round, so nine chances to hit something important at 15' with a single pull of the trigger. With that said, in such an instance, I would grab the shotgun and the wife would call 911. I would not leave the master bedroom to engage the intruder and would be more than happy to wait for the police to arrive while I hold a defensive position.

You sound like a very sensible man. This attitude would probably save a lot more lives (victims as well as perpetrators) than the usual "you trespass and you die" attitude I've heard about.

[psychophipps]

I would rock a 12-gauge semi-auto using #4 buckshot and a duckbill choke. Nothing like a pair of 26-pellet ovals of pain at waist level from the end of the hallway so make sure that anyone crouched or somehow trying to do some jumpy crap still gets some of the lovin' you're dishing out. Worked great in 'Nam, fail to see why it would do any worse 100 years later...

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I would rock a 12-gauge semi-auto using #4 buckshot and a duckbill choke. Nothing like a pair of 26-pellet ovals of pain at waist level from the end of the hallway so make sure that anyone crouched or somehow trying to do some jumpy crap still gets some of the lovin' you're dishing out. Worked great in 'Nam, fail to see why it would do any worse 100 years later...

I am not going to argue against #4 buckshot, shoot what you have faith in. As far as the buckbill choke and realizing that within the relatively short distances inside a house you aren't going to see massive pattern spread.

If a person wants the most energy from a hit, then my choice of 00 buckshot is actually inferior to #1 buckshot. You go from a .33 caliber to a .30 but increase the number of pellets in the shell by about 74%.

I would seriously add this proviso...in RL you have to think very seriously what is going to happen if you miss. In an apartment building I would be very hesitant to use any sort of firearm! An aluminum baseball bat would be my first choice for an apartment. Same with the suburbs, if pushed I would lean toward a .12 guage with birdshot. I live outside of town, with one neighbor, 300' away so 00 buckshot isn't a huge concern.

I also have concealed security cameras, an alarm system, motion detection lighting, two dogs, heavy steel entry doors with steel frames (included deadbolt + mortisse lock, no windows in or around the doors)...so I think that I am more than safe. Well, a zombie horde would probably get me at some point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[kzt]

I'd suggest focusing on not missing instead. If you are dealing with a person (or persons) who will continue to attack someone who has a shotgun they will almost certainly be willing to go a few rounds with a guy with a baseball bat. If you are really worried try birdshot. At close range birdshot will go through both sides of a drywall wall, but it's unlikely to get through the next one. Birdshot isn't exactly the ideal round to stop people with, but it's better then wrestling with two meth addicts.

[FriendoftheDork]

I am not going to argue against #4 buckshot, shoot what you have faith in. As far as the buckbill choke and realizing that within the relatively short distances inside a house you aren't going to see massive pattern spread.

If a person wants the most energy from a hit, then my choice of 00 buckshot is actually inferior to #1 buckshot. You go from a .33 caliber to a .30 but increase the number of pellets in the shell by about 74%.

I would seriously add this proviso...in RL you have to think very seriously what is going to happen if you miss. In an apartment building I would be very hesitant to use any sort of firearm! An aluminum baseball bat would be my first choice for an apartment. Same with the suburbs, if pushed I would lean toward a .12 guage with birdshot. I live outside of town, with one neighbor, 300' away so 00 buckshot isn't a huge concern.

I also have concealed security cameras, an alarm system, motion detection lighting, two dogs, heavy steel entry doors with steel frames (included deadbolt + mortisse lock, no windows in or around the doors)...so I think that I am more than safe. Well, a zombie horde would probably get me at some point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ok im changing "sensible" to "paranoid" here... yikes.

[Yerameyahu]

That should have been your first assessment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dumori]

I would not leave the master bedroom to engage the intruder and would be more than happy to wait for the police to arrive while I hold a defensive position.

I while my comment on holding a signal room depends heavily on layout I might move out of the room and fall back to it if needed.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Ok im changing "sensible" to "paranoid" here... yikes.

I tend to think that I am prudent having worked in law enforcement, security and as a Private Investigator...bad things happen to good people all the time. The one thing that I heard over and over again from the victims, "I never thought something like this would happen to me."

I don't think that I am at any more risk than any other person. I don't lose sleep over 'what if' scenarios. I will be perfectly content to never have to fire a weapon in anger. I also know what the average response time is for law enforcment in the county where I live. I know that criminals don't like to be illuminated. Nor do criminals like doors that can't be kicked in, and that while a door knob and dead bolt can be bypassed simply enough that the mortisse lock requires repeated heavy blows to defeat. Add to that an alarm blarring and dogs barking...it would have to be a very deranged fellow to stick around.

I added a smiley face for the zombie's comment to show that I was joking about it.

To sum it up nicely, I travel and my wife is home alone for lengthy periods of time her safety is imperative to me.

[Banaticus]

I also have concealed security cameras, an alarm system, motion detection lighting, two dogs, heavy steel entry doors with steel frames (included deadbolt + mortisse lock, no windows in or around the doors)...so I think that I am more than safe. Well, a zombie horde would probably get me at some point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ok, you sell a little something-something, a little candy, am I right? Come on, you can tell us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just kidding -- keep the wife safe, that's the #1 priority. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

I take the lazy man route to security and home ownership. I just keep entrances locked and the lines of sight clear with minimal landscaping and I keep things well lit. After all, one of the biggest errors people make is mistaking privacy for security. A privacy fence will keep someone out of your property for the few seconds it takes a fit man to clear your fence and after that it just provides cover. You know, so they can check out your back doors without any pesky neighbors giving them a hard time. Burglars know this.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Talking about my security measures wasn't meant to be an advocacy for others to follow suit. I wanted to convey that my idea of security is more about deterence (i.e. potential reward vs. hassle) than violent defense. I have found that some people that don't own firearms think that everyone who does is some trigger happy redneck just itching for the chance to start blasting away. Hopefully, the vast majority of firearm owners out there are responsible and of a similar mind.

Personally, I think that the biggest mistake an individual can make is to buy a pistol have the sale person show them how to operate it and think that they are protected when they get home. That individual is more a menace to themselves than an intruder. If you think that I am wrong about this, go play paintball with a bunch of first time players. I have been shot in the back (at close range) by players on my own team simply because they don't keep their finger off the trigger while they are walking behind me...more than once.

But...having derailed this topic horribly!

Even if the rules will allow for something...if it violates fundamental common sense and doesn't make the game more enjoyable...don't do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Shrike30]

The point in this discussion isn't whether they die or not - it is how fast they get incapacitated. A good shot to the heart is 100% fatal - but you can'tassume that the'll drop instantly, he could have 10-15 seconds of fight left in him. (Not saying you disagree with this, just pointing out that survival isn't the issue.)

Vaguely related: my father shot a grizzly bear one day on a hunt. Fired on it at 175 yards, from the side, aiming to put his .338 Win Mag in past the shoulder. It turned and charged him. He ran the mag dry, loaded straight to the chamber for his sixth and seventh rounds, and it finally dropped at about 50 yards.

Being a surgeon by trade, he did an autopsy while they were taking the skin and meat. He found that his first round had, in fact, killed it... it expanded well, destroyed the ascending aorta, and shredded the top of both lungs. The other rounds he fired all hit, and might have slowed it down, but none would have been "immediately" fatal the way the first one was.