No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[Yerameyahu]

It's a sniper character. OP says he wants to just not carry a sidearm. Nothing wrong with that, if concealability isn't something he cares about. Besides, again, sniper rifles really aren't as good as (see above) a nice AR, unless you just gotta shoot a) through huge armor, or b) beyond 600m. It's not like the character is cheating. Besides, all weapons in SR are equally 'accurate' with a scope, which everyone should have.

I say, let the poor sniper be involved, instead of sitting out just because the run doesn't call for a 1000m hit.

Incidentally, I assumed that 'de-calibration' penalty was only for the Ranger Arms rifle in the core book, not a general sniper rifles rule.

[kjones]

Turns out the character will also be packing a Nitama Optimum II (I outfitted an NPC with one recently and I think it made an impression) so this will be not so much of a problem. Even so, let's consider the relative merits of using an assault rifle versus a sniper rifle in a CQC situation (say, less than 50 meters - and I'm not sure I've ever had a serious firefight with ranges much beyond that).

AR:
-BF/FA (this is the big one)
-Larger mag
-Generally higher RC
-No miscalibrated optics penalty

Sniper:
-Higher base DV
-Higher base AP

It seems to me that the advantages of a sniper rifle in CQC are mostly mitigated by the fact that one can fire bursts with an assault rifle. A long narrow burst (+5 DV) will, on average, be more effective than the sniper rifle's increased base DV (+2-3) and AP (-3 AP -> 1 less point of soak on average -> +1 DV). Granted, you can only do it once per turn, and this is assuming your gun is pimped out with gas-vent, etc...

I suppose the moral of the story is that sniper rifles are better for sniping, and assault rifles are better for CQC, and that's pretty OK with me.

Side note: You know what else would be silly? Modding your sniper rifle for BF.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SWAT teams train heavily and make great use of sniper rifles on a daily basis.

Also, the cost of even a mil-spec Remington 700 is less than a base model M4.

Numerically, SWAT members do not all train with a Sniper Rifle... you have the Marksmen (Snipers) and the Assault teams (who use either smg's or asault rifles/Shotguns)...

Yeah, you can get a farily optimized Sniper Rifle (Remington 700) for fairly cheap... though I tend to prefer the Dan Brown (even though it is more expensive)... Though if you really want to get crazy, I will take the HK PSG-1... A Very Sweet "Off the Rack" piece of equipment, but it better be at just over 10,000 Dollars...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The 700 is most certainly a sniper rifle, it's what all American forces use. But of course assault rifles are much more effective in CQB, I never meant to argue that point.

Not all American Forces use the Remington 700 by the way...

Keep the Faith

[psychophipps]

Actually, they have recently been finding that a longer barrel really doesn't do all that much for many sniper rifles. Companies are starting to chop sniper rifle barrels down to 18" from 24-26" without any reduction in overall accuracy across the full effective range of the weapon. It appears that the stiffer barrel for the length of the shot is canceling the trajectory errors induced by the flexing and harmonics of the extra barrel length. So a chopped-down sniper rifle by SR is actually pretty feasible.

Also, top-tier suppressors (the correct term for "silencers") are good for well over 10,000 rounds anymore and actually improve accuracy because the suppressor acts like the worlds biggest and best muzzle crown for uniform gas dispersal at the muzzle. In fact, Surefire has a video of the suppressor department literally burning out two M4s with near-cyclic full-auto fire, both using the same suppressor that kept on ticking without any loss of effectiveness the entire time. They let it cool afterward and it still worked as well as when it left the workbench.

[psychophipps]

Double post

[kzt]

Too bad a Remington 700 isn't a sniper rifle. Also, SWAT snipers train heavily and make great use of sniper rifles, not every SWAT team member.

A Remington 700P, which costs about $900, is perfectly capable of being a sniper rifle. You just need a scope and decent ammo. You can reach out to 1000 yards effectively and even I can usually keep 5 rounds inside 4 inches at 300 yards. The rifle is better than that, it's me that is the limiting factor. I've gotten a few 1 inch 3-5 round groups at 200 yards.

It's almost always the guy behind the rifle that is the limiting factor. You have to be VERY good before the use of a professionally built tactical rifle makes a difference in your shooting. Unlike SR, in reality investing in top quality gear without the skill and hours of training and practice is generally just wasted money.

If you want to see why I think the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move is insane, see the picture in this article on the British Army sniper who dropped 5 guys in under 30 seconds at over a mile.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...ish-patrol.html

[Karoline]

If you want to see why I think the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move is insane, see the picture in this article on the British Army sniper who dropped 5 guys in under 30 seconds at over a mile.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...ish-patrol.html

Why does that make the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move insane? Like, insanely powerful, or somehow the fact that a sniper can take out 5 people in 28 seconds from over a mile away means that moving with a sniper rifle is impossible?

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, isn't that *just* like SR4 in terms of guns, kzt? Your accuracy is based on skill (and Agility), not the gun.

While you can get a sniper rifle with BF, it uses up so many Mod Slots that it's just… sad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) The mod suppressor has the nice -6, and I want my rifle to have dual clips, after all!

[Karoline]

Actually, isn't that *just* like SR4 in terms of guns, kzt? Your accuracy is based on skill (and Agility), not the gun.

Think he means that an amateur can buy an expensive sniper rifle with a smartlink, and take a couple 'take aim' actions, and hit just about anything from absolute maximum range without difficulty. (3 Agi + 1 Skill + 2 Smartlink + take aim to negate range + 2 take aim = 8DP = 2 automatic hits or roll for almost 3 on average)

In the real world, getting beyond a certain range takes serious skill because you have to start taking not just 'the wind' into account, but the current of the wind over the entire length of the shot, not to mention the amount of shaking an amateur would have would likely throw the aim way off.

[nemafow]

Think he means that an amateur can buy an expensive sniper rifle with a smartlink, and take a couple 'take aim' actions, and hit just about anything from absolute maximum range without difficulty. (3 Agi + 1 Skill + 2 Smartlink + take aim to negate range + 2 take aim = 8DP = 2 automatic hits or roll for almost 3 on average)

In the real world, getting beyond a certain range takes serious skill because you have to start taking not just 'the wind' into account, but the current of the wind over the entire length of the shot, not to mention the amount of shaking an amateur would have would likely throw the aim way off.

In his defense, I can only think of a small handful of RPG games that an amateur character wouldnt be able to make that shot, compared to a professionally trained character that could.
Abstract rules for ease of playing, without too many variables to slow down the game.

Edit: spelling

[Method]

Fluff wise, kind of sounds wrong to use it in CQB. Use an assault rifle.

You're absolutely correct. But the problem is the RAW don't contain anything that prohibits or even discourages using a snipper rifle in CQB. You can use one in melee if you want and you don't suffer any more penalty than using a pistol.

[Yerameyahu]

I see what you mean, Karoline. I was only responding to the skill vs. gear question, so that's true.

[Karoline]

In his defense, I can only think of a small handful of RPG games that an amateur character wouldnt be able to make that shot, compared to a professionally trained character that could.
Abstract rules for ease of playing, without too many variables to slow down the game.

Edit: spelling

All depends on how the game handles range penalties really. In SR it is very easy to negate those penalties, in some games it is difficult or impossible to do so. D&D 3E for example let you fire up to 10x a ranged weapon's 'range' but each category was a -2 to hit, and there was no way to negate the penalty. Thus the amateur would be at -20, as would the pro, but the pro would have enough of a bonus to maybe have a positive modifier, while the amateur would have a massive negative modifier.

But you are right, most games give very broad ranges before a penalty is applied, and an amateur archer is just as effective at 10 feet as at 200 feet or whatever.

[nemafow]

You're absolutely correct. But the problem is the RAW don't contain anything that prohibits or even discourages using a snipper rifle in CQB. You can use one in melee if you want and you don't suffer any more penalty than using a pistol.

I know by RAW this blows, if that were to happen in my game, to try and keep it even a little 'beleievable' I would give said player a dice pool penalty, just to try and keep the illusion of beleivability there.
I would also explain beforehand to player why I am doing it and if he has any comments/issues with said ruling. In my experience if you catch something like this beforehand and discuss it before it becomes an 'issue' a player is not going to have a hissy fit (even though 99% of the time, they are adults) as he/she will understand from the GMs point of view, WHY there is a penalty.

As it stands by:
RAW - its okay
Me as a GM - its not okay

But said player is encouraged to try and change my point of view, he/she may see something that I havent considered yet.

My 0.02 nuyen.

[Shrike30]

A Nitama Optimum, or an H&K XM38 modified for marksman work, are great multirole guns. In all honesty, if he wants to use a sniper's rifle in close quarters, let him... compared to the amount of damage he could likely be doing with a grenade launcher or assault rifle, he's really not pushing the curve all that far.

[Karoline]

I know by RAW this blows, if that were to happen in my game, to try and keep it even a little 'beleievable' I would give said player a dice pool penalty, just to try and keep the illusion of beleivability there.

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

[nemafow]

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

Well my view will be a little biased, as we have a house rule for that.. But I say bring it on!
But then again, the knife to the face is barely any different to a knife to the leg in SR, called shots dont work very well.

[Method]

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

Whether its a gun fight or a knife fight is dependent on range.

If you're farther than 5-10 meters from your enemy with a knife and he's got a firearm, well you chose wrong.

If you're within a meter of your enemy with a pistol and he's slashing at you with a knife, thats all bets are off.

But if you're within a meter of your enemy with a sniper rifle and he's slashing at you with a knife, then you (probably) chose wrong (unless you're using the rifle as a club, but if thats the case say goodbye to your spendy precision optics).

[kzt]

Why does that make the idea of using a sniper rifle on the move insane? Like, insanely powerful, or somehow the fact that a sniper can take out 5 people in 28 seconds from over a mile away means that moving with a sniper rifle is impossible?

Did you look at the rifle he's holding?

[KarmaInferno]

For what it's worth, I've read some reports of folks in Iraq and Afghanistan operating in sniper support roles.

A lot of them ended up carrying two rifles around, one precision marksman job and one short assault rifle or even SMG for when they've moving from sniping point to sniping point due to the close quarters. And yes, they complained that it was heavy and a pain in the ass humping around all that gear, noting they'd have loved to have some of the newer battle rifles that have appeared recently instead - decent range and accuracy, but short enough and tough enough for CQB if needed, two weapons in one.



-karma

[Doc Chaos]

Sounds like somebody wants the high damage output and armor penetration in close ranged combat. So why he just doesn't stick to an assault rifle with APDS bullets is beyond me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chaos]

Double post. How'd that happen? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[EKBT81]

Think he means that an amateur can buy an expensive sniper rifle with a smartlink, and take a couple 'take aim' actions, and hit just about anything from absolute maximum range without difficulty. (3 Agi + 1 Skill + 2 Smartlink + take aim to negate range + 2 take aim = 8DP = 2 automatic hits or roll for almost 3 on average)

In the real world, getting beyond a certain range takes serious skill because you have to start taking not just 'the wind' into account, but the current of the wind over the entire length of the shot, not to mention the amount of shaking an amateur would have would likely throw the aim way off.

Maybe a bit nitpicky, but you can use the "take aim" action only as many times as half your skill rounded down. So by RAW a Skill-1 PC wouldn't be able to use the "take aim" action at all.

[FriendoftheDork]

It's not that much difference between a sniper rifle and an old fasioned BA or SA battle rifle, which were often used in close quarters battles. Of course SMGs were preferred for this task, both because of rate of fire and because they were less bulky and easier to move quickly.