No-scoping, Silliness with sniper rifles Options

[Starmage21]

Think he means that an amateur can buy an expensive sniper rifle with a smartlink, and take a couple 'take aim' actions, and hit just about anything from absolute maximum range without difficulty. (3 Agi + 1 Skill + 2 Smartlink + take aim to negate range + 2 take aim = 8DP = 2 automatic hits or roll for almost 3 on average)

In the real world, getting beyond a certain range takes serious skill because you have to start taking not just 'the wind' into account, but the current of the wind over the entire length of the shot, not to mention the amount of shaking an amateur would have would likely throw the aim way off.

Smartlinks are supposed to do this for you. Wind, range, lateral movement, etc...

[Doc Chaos]

Maybe a bit nitpicky, but you can use the "take aim" action only as many times as half your skill rounded down. So by RAW a Skill-1 PC wouldn't be able to use the "take aim" action at all.

So in this example the shooter would have 3 + 1 + 2 - 6 = zero DP at extreme range. A skill of 2 would allow him to negate the range modifier, so a DP of 6... not bad for a shot taken at 1500 meters. Smartgun adapters truly are powerful tools, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Karoline]

they'd have loved to have some of the newer battle rifles that have appeared recently instead - decent range and accuracy, but short enough and tough enough for CQB if needed, two weapons in one.

Perhaps we can suppose that those have become the standard in the next 62 years?

Maybe a bit nitpicky, but you can use the "take aim" action only as many times as half your skill rounded down. So by RAW a Skill-1 PC wouldn't be able to use the "take aim" action at all.

Ah, didn't look it up, likely because the only character I've ever used the take aim action with had a skill of 7, and so three was the number I remembered due to that.

So in this example the shooter would have 3 + 1 + 2 - 6 = zero DP at extreme range. A skill of 2 would allow him to negate the range modifier, so a DP of 6... not bad for a shot taken at 1500 meters. Smartgun adapters truly are powerful tools, eh?

Well, 7 dice actually because it would be 3 + 2 + 2 = 7, and even without the smartgun it is 5 dice, which means the person will hit a (surprised) target at 1500m guaranteed.

[knightofargh]

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

Depends on distance and if the guy with the firearm has it holstered. Assuming a holstered firearm the guy with the knife will usually win within 21 feet. That would be why LEOs are usually trained to escalate to lethal force when a guy with a knife is within that range.

I've done some training on it with training knives and "blue" guns. The guy with the gun does usually lose at those ranges. It's difficult to clear a holster and get a "shot" off under stress in under 1.5 seconds, about 2.5 if it's concealed IWB. Shoulder rigs are about the same speed as a hip holster, assuming a loose cover garment.

[Method]

21 feet is about the range I have been told as well.

[StealthSigma]

Of course. Which is in an entirely different league from using a sniper rifle in close combat. Even so, I personally use a shotgun of some kind for close range when making a sniping character, even though it is perfectly possible to use the rifle.

Both myself and my GM didn't like the fact that my sharp-shooter styled character kept resorting back to using an assault rifle 99% of the time. The Ares Alpha is just that good. We've messed about with a custom weapon to get something that would draw me away from always deferring to an assault rifle.

Here's the current weapon specs.

HK517 - 1300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Longarm (Sniper Rifle)
Damage: 7P
AP: -2
Firing Modes: SA/BF
Ammo: 18 clip
Recoil: 2
Range Increments: As Sporting Rifle (0-100, 101-250, 251-500, 501-750)

Built-in Modifications: Internal Smartgun, Imaging Scopre, Gas Vent(2)

It's based off the HK417 20" barrel variant.

With the extra three rounds and the optional burst fire, I'm not enticed to try dragging an Ares Desert Fox [8P -3AP, 15©, SA] into a building. And it's good enough that I'm not enticed to constantly use an Ares Alpha (6P, -1AP, 42©, SA/BF/FA) unless I run into a situation where I need to lay down a lot of bullets. I usually carry either the Alpha or a P93 Praetor with me in addition to the HK517....

--

So what's your stance on bringing a knife to a gun fight (Literally)?

Considering that I tend to do much better when playing CoD and knifing everyone, to the point where I am near the top of the leader boards, I am in full support of this option.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

21 feet for orks, humans and elves. And what about a troll? 31 feet?

Remember: Trolls have longer arms AND legs, which mean they can clear a distance faster then others and stil have the reach to get you.

[Summerstorm]

Humm... FOUR pages and no one posted this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJV202TpGrY ? Ah well.

As for the discussion: I have nothing to add. I would let him do it. And let him do anything with a sniper-rifle. But yeah, a few drawbacks, sure.

[Yerameyahu]

I really don't see the need for drawbacks, fluff- or crunch-wise. It's not a powergamer choice, and a sniper rifle is not more unwieldy than an AR. We certainly let people use full-size shotguns up close.

[knightofargh]

21 feet for orks, humans and elves. And what about a troll? 31 feet?

Remember: Trolls have longer arms AND legs, which mean they can clear a distance faster then others and stil have the reach to get you.

31 feet sounds fair. The better question is how much distance you have to leave for the Troll with Move-By-Wire and 4 IPs?

I've also had the complaint over the years that all systems, SR included, seem to underestimate the difference between rifle and pistol rounds. My preferred system these days is guilty of that, nothing like the theory that an 8mm pistol round (historically .32 ACP is the closest, about 70 grains at 900 fps) hits the same as an 8mm rifle round (8mm mauser being representative at 200 grains at 2900 fps). Nope, no kinetic energy difference there, no siree.

In the case of this thread I'd allow it under Rule of Cool as long as the rifle is bull-pup, otherwise I'd apply a significant penalty due to over-all length. Most sporting/sniping rifles have 26 inch barrels versus the 16-20 inch barrel in an assault rifle and 12 inch barrel in an SMG. That extra 6 inches of match barrel is likely to frak with the balance point of a rifle intended to be used from a prone or braced position.

[Zyerne]

The HK-PSG with short barrel mod would be what I'd use. Swap out the bipod or scope for an external smartgun adapter, possibly add melee hardening and then go shoot stuff.

[Warlordtheft]

Perhaps we can suppose that those have become the standard in the next 62 years?

I think most 1st rate armies in the future will be going for a mix of weapons that are highly depndent on the mission. SOme weapons (SMGs, carbines, shotguns, and pistols) are good for clearing buildings. Others such as SAWs, battle/assault rifles are good for mid range combats (to about 100 meters). Sniper rifles/sharpshooters are there for long distance firefights (so are ICBMs but I'm not going to level (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think SR4 particularly suffers from ignoring cartridge differences. SMGs shoot pistol rounds, and they have about the same DV as pistols shooting those rounds. LMGs shoot rifle rounds, and they have about the same DV as rifles shooting those rounds. Etc.

[knightofargh]

I haven't made the change to SR4. In SR3 it was a closer gap, Heavy Pistols and SMGs in BF at 9M. Rifles were ~7S for sport models and something absurd like 12D for sniper models. Assault rifles were 8Mish (11S with Burst).

If the gap became greater in SR4 I'd be tentatively pleased.

[kzt]

I really don't see the need for drawbacks, fluff- or crunch-wise. It's not a powergamer choice, and a sniper rifle is not more unwieldy than an AR. We certainly let people use full-size shotguns up close.

Really? Can I see a picture of your 57 inch long, 30 pound empty AR?

[Dumori]

Thats a Trolls AR commanly know as a MMG (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Zyerne]

Back in the 'old days' (SR1/2) we had Trolss using Panthers for CQB. One even kept a sawn off one under a poncho.

[Yerameyahu]

Not all sniper rifles remotely fit those stats, kzt.

[StealthSigma]

Really? Can I see a picture of your 57 inch long, 30 pound empty AR?

The sniper rifle used in the record-distance confirmed kill is 15.1lbs and 48.4in long.
The standard sniper rifle used by the USMC is about 15lbs and 44in long.

Most sniper rifles don't come close to the length and weight of the .50cal Barrett.

[kzt]

Only 48" long. You can't even pie a door in a normal corridor without sticking the muzzle into the room. Flagging yourself when you are supposed to be sneaking isn't conducive to long life.

I've got a 700, but it's really clumsy compared to an AR. The few pounds makes a big difference, you can't use the scope when moving, and it's damn hard to go through doors and corridors.

[Yerameyahu]

A far cry from 57", 30lb.

The SPAS-12 is 10lb, 40", while the M21 is 12lb, 43". It doesn't seem fair to invent a punitive rule on a not-powergaming weapon choice for 2lb, 3".

[Sengir]

(unless you're using the rifle as a club, but if thats the case say goodbye to your spendy precision optics).

That would actually be a significantly better choice than trying to scratch him with your MRE opener.

Really, people tend to vastly overestimate the effectiveness of knives based on their Hollywood and game representation as instant, silent killers - sure stabwounds and deep cuts are nasty, but if you are too busy to notice you got stabbed nothing will happen, unlinke hat happens when you get a burst in the chest or get clubbed on the head. If things get close and personal you switch your rifle to "peace" mode and ready the folding shovel, knives are tools and kitchen utensils.

[Doc Byte]

If things get close and personal you switch your rifle to "peace" mode and ready the folding shovel, knives are tools and kitchen utensils.

Use a bigger knife. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I really don't see the need for drawbacks, fluff- or crunch-wise. It's not a powergamer choice, and a sniper rifle is not more unwieldy than an AR. We certainly let people use full-size shotguns up close.

Most full size AR's or Shotguns do not weigh in at 30 pounds either... the barret M82 weighs in at that weight (with the 29" barrel) and at just under 30 pounds (with the 20" barrel), not including any over the top optics that you could include for night operations...

For Comparisons... the HK-PSG weighs in at 15.87 pounds... with a barrel length of 25.6" and Total Length of 48.4"

Just sayin'

Keep the faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The HK-PSG with short barrel mod would be what I'd use. Swap out the bipod or scope for an external smartgun adapter, possibly add melee hardening and then go shoot stuff.

In the real world... HK-PSG1 for the win... in Shadowrun... HK PSG for the win...

You gotta love it when the best sniper rifle in the world is still in existence in 2072 (May be a personal opinion, but so what)
Of course, the Barret is in there as well, but I still prefer the HK myself...

Though in reality, I would probably choose the Dan Brown myself due to the difficulty in obtaining an HK-PSG 1 in the United States...

Keep the Faith