The blind mage, A problem with targeting? Options

[Redcrow]

If you say the blind mage can target people on the physical plane while he is only able to see their auras on the astral plane, you are also saying that an astral entity can target something on the physical plane, because it's the same thing.

Not quite the same thing. A blind mage using Astral Perception still has a physical component which is why he could (IMO) target something on the physical plane. An Astral Entity (i.e. existing solely on the Astral Plane) or a mage using Astral Projection have no physical component and therefore could not target something on the physical plane.



The reason I have always allowed a mage (blind or not) to target things on the physical plane while using Astral Perception is threefold. One, that has always been my understanding of the rules. Two, I have never seen it abused so I see no reason not to allow it. And three, it opens the Astrally Perceiving mage up to attacks from the Astral Plane which can be quite a deterrent to using it often and is a simple balance.

[Yerameyahu]

So. Astral Sight amounts to a replacement for all forms of vision at a -2 penalty? That's the same as any Partial Light, for example, so there's no reason to ever get them for a Mage. I'm not saying that's a problem, I just never understood it in that way. Interesting. Blind should have a reduced BP bonus for anyone who can perceive Astrally, in the same way that taking Neuro Fully Reduced Taste is suggested as GM-nerfed.

What about Dual-Natured beings? A drake gets a bunch of heightened visions, but obviously doesn't need them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

(If you can shoot a person with a gun, or attack them with a sword, using your astral perception, you can cast a spell at them as well... obviously Astral Perception allows targeting physical objects, or the physical actions would be impossible all together)

That seems like a horrid analogy. You can fire a gun at something, thus you can cast a spell at them? To fire a gun you just need to point in the right direction and bang, you shoot them. You can use a computer to aim and fire a gun, but you cannot use a computer to target a spell, so your analogy obviously falls through very quickly.

Yes, you can tell that someone or something is in a particular place, and thus you can make physical actions towards those things. In order to cast a spell however, you must be able to see what you are targeting, and while viewing things astrally you don't see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral shadow of it on the astral plane. So, firing a gun works because you can go 'I want to shoot at something at roughly that spot', but casting a spell doesn't because you can't go 'I want to target that spot but on the physical plane' because you must see something to target it, and you cannot see the physical plane. It'd be like targeting someone through their shadow. You know they are there, that they are connected to their shadow, but you still can't target them with a spell, because you can't see the actual target.

As for blind being a -6 penalty, should point out that total darkness is also only a -6 penalty, and in that case it is physically impossible to see anything as well. I'm not sure why exactly the devs simply imposed a -6 penalty as opposed to making it impossible to see something when you are blind (I'm supposing that the quality refers to actually blind as opposed to 'legally' blind). This means it is technically possible though difficult for a blind mage to target stuff with their natural LoS (despite being blind), but they would need a perception check (at -6) to locate the target in the first place, and then casting the spell would also be at a -6. Seems a little 'cheap' to me, though the penalties are hefty, it doesn't exactly make the character all that blind. That's more like 'needs to wear glasses'.

edit

Not quite the same thing. A blind mage using Astral Perception still has a physical component which is why he could (IMO) target something on the physical plane.

You're very right, they can target something on the physical plane, but the problem is that the distinction is never made of what form of targeting, because a target can be acquired through touch as well. It says they can cast a physical spell at a target, but never that a target can (or can't) be obtained through astral sight.

P.S. I think indirect physical combat spells might work, as those don't require a target, simply that the mage form up the spell and throw it in some direction, as opposed to causing an affect at a particular point (like powerbolt for instance). I'll have to look that up a bit more.

[Red-ROM]

- Shooting at someone while astraly perceiving is a -2 (may require assensing test if you wanted?). mundane actions are specifically addressed.

- Targeting the physical plane while astrally perceiving is addressed. so touch spells, yes, area spells, yes.

-I think disallowing the targeting of a person would be strange and specifically mentioned. but I have no book quote for you.

- here is a strange leap of logic, your aura is a reflection of you on the astral, you can target people's reflections in the physical world. If I have to make the call, I'd say its doable

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That seems like a horrid analogy. You can fire a gun at something, thus you can cast a spell at them? To fire a gun you just need to point in the right direction and bang, you shoot them. You can use a computer to aim and fire a gun, but you cannot use a computer to target a spell, so your analogy obviously falls through very quickly.

Yes, you can tell that someone or something is in a particular place, and thus you can make physical actions towards those things. In order to cast a spell however, you must be able to see what you are targeting, and while viewing things astrally you don't see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral shadow of it on the astral plane. So, firing a gun works because you can go 'I want to shoot at something at roughly that spot', but casting a spell doesn't because you can't go 'I want to target that spot but on the physical plane' because you must see something to target it, and you cannot see the physical plane. It'd be like targeting someone through their shadow. You know they are there, that they are connected to their shadow, but you still can't target them with a spell, because you can't see the actual target.

As for blind being a -6 penalty, should point out that total darkness is also only a -6 penalty, and in that case it is physically impossible to see anything as well. I'm not sure why exactly the devs simply imposed a -6 penalty as opposed to making it impossible to see something when you are blind (I'm supposing that the quality refers to actually blind as opposed to 'legally' blind). This means it is technically possible though difficult for a blind mage to target stuff with their natural LoS (despite being blind), but they would need a perception check (at -6) to locate the target in the first place, and then casting the spell would also be at a -6. Seems a little 'cheap' to me, though the penalties are hefty, it doesn't exactly make the character all that blind. That's more like 'needs to wear glasses'.

edit


You're very right, they can target something on the physical plane, but the problem is that the distinction is never made of what form of targeting, because a target can be acquired through touch as well. It says they can cast a physical spell at a target, but never that a target can (or can't) be obtained through astral sight.

P.S. I think indirect physical combat spells might work, as those don't require a target, simply that the mage form up the spell and throw it in some direction, as opposed to causing an affect at a particular point (like powerbolt for instance). I'll have to look that up a bit more.

I can see that we are not going to agree here, and that is okay... the rules allow it, and I have pointed them out to you... The drawbacks of using Astral Perception to target physical actions (whether actual physical actions or magical actions) exist, and I have never seen it abused as you claim it is... opening yourself up to the Astral is dangerous, especially if you are in a fight for your life, but it may be the only viable course of action there is...

Go with what you like...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

I can see that we are not going to agree here, and that is okay... the rules allow it, and I have pointed them out to you... The drawbacks of using Astral Perception to target physical actions (whether actual physical actions or magical actions) exist, and I have never seen it abused as you claim it is... opening yourself up to the Astral is dangerous, especially if you are in a fight for your life, but it may be the only viable course of action there is...

Go with what you like...

Keep the Faith

An interpretation of the rules allow it, yes, if you assume 'can cast physical spells at a target' to mean 'can use astral sight to target something on the physical plane'. And, I've never said that it was abused, just that I believed people were doing it wrong from what the rules actually say, though they are admittedly vague as they don't come out and say one way or the other that you can or cannot use astral sight to target a physical spell. I've explained why I think you cannot: Because you must see a target to cast at it, and using astral sight you do not see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral representation of that thing, which is well known to be unsuitable for using magic on.

[Redcrow]

It says they can cast a physical spell at a target, but never that a target can (or can't) be obtained through astral sight.

If your quote from the rules in the OP is complete, then I don't see the limiting qualifier "physical" anywhere. It just says "can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space". Is there some additional rule or place where "physical" is used as limiting factor?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

From AngelisStorm in another Topic...

QUOTE
Can you cast spells if blind?

Sight is the most common means of establishing a connection with a target (hence the range "Line of Sight"), but by no means the only one. If you physically see, astrally perceive, or touch the target, you can cast the spell.

In situations where the player wishes for their character to use another sense (hearing, smell, echolocation, etc.) to cast a spell, it's up to the gamemaster to decide if that is possible. At the very least, a Perception Test involving the sense in question is called for, with appropriate modifiers (Using Perception, pp.135-136, SR4A). In the case of enhanced senses, the enhanced sense must be integral to the character (i.e., cyberears with audio enhancement would work, but earplugs with audio enhancement would not). Naturally, this works better for Indirect Combat Spells than others.

My guess is that this came from the FAQ... Not sure though...

EDIT: Indeed it is... In the Spellcasting Section...
Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

The point is that that quote is ambiguous.

Hmm. I really wonder what kind of numbers should be involved for casting a spell by smell, etc. :/ Sounds tricky.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The point is that that quote is ambiguous.

Hmm. I really wonder what kind of numbers should be involved for casting a spell by smell, etc. :/ Sounds tricky.

Funny... I have never considered it as such myself... I would say, rather, that it is ambiguous to some individuals...
Different can of worms entirely... I have always interpreted that "Astral Perception" allowed casting both in the Physical plane and the Astral plane... andd the quote from the book supports that (it is very plain in its reading... go back and look and you will see that)... when you try to read more into the statement than is there, then it becomes ambiguous... Since you already know that you cannot have spells cross planes, that argument is null and void... Astrally Perceiving creatures can affect both planes of existence, A non-perceiving Mage can only affect the Physical, and the Projecting Mage can only affect the Astral... Astral Perception is a means of obtaining effect... that is really all it is... all it ever was in fact...

ASSENSING, on the other hand is something entirely different, with different mechanics, and is what I believe that most people confuse the issue with...

Keep the Faith

[Angelone]

It's not ambiguous until you add the blind quality. A normal astrally percieving mage can target someone while astrally percieving because he can still see the physical plane. A blind mage cannot see the physical plane.

What is the point of the magemask then? It breaks a mages ability to see and therefore target. It also distracts them, but that's not here nor there. If a mage cannot see something they cannot visually target it, which is what is being argued and is a cheap workaround of a negative quality.

[Yerameyahu]

No, I mean that the quote, in and of itself, is ambiguous. I don't mean that the entire question, including various other quotes, is ambiguous.

[pbangarth]

I can see that we are not going to agree here, and that is okay... the rules allow it, and I have pointed them out to you... The drawbacks of using Astral Perception to target physical actions (whether actual physical actions or magical actions) exist, and I have never seen it abused as you claim it is... opening yourself up to the Astral is dangerous, especially if you are in a fight for your life, but it may be the only viable course of action there is...

There are a couple of sections in the description of Astral Perception on page 191 of SR4A which this position (held by others as well as TJ, just using his quote as the example) does not address.

It takes a Simple Action to shift one's perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical
space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail).

(emphasis mine)

While astrally perceiving, a magician can cast mana spells at astral opponents.

The only 'cut and dried' references I find are those that say you can't see or be in two places at the same time. The options provided in the FAQ for using other senses than sight for LOS are all physical senses that work in physical space.

EDIT: As an aside, the act of shifting preception from astral to physical takes a Simple Action and prevents the Complex Action of Spellcasting in the same action phase.

[jimbo]

I'll state the same thing here that I stated in a Counterspelling thread.

In Street Magic, page 160 (this is the spell design section under range: LoS)
A magician can target what he can see or assense.

[HugeC]

... A normal astrally percieving mage can target someone while astrally percieving because he can still see the physical plane...

No he can't, as noted above by pbangarth. Dual-natured critters such as dragons can sense both planes at once (SR4A p. 294), but for a mage it's either one plane or the other.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No he can't, as noted above by pbangarth. Dual-natured critters such as dragons can sense both planes at once (SR4A p. 294), but for a mage it's either one plane or the other.

Yes he can, becasue the book says that they can do so on page 191 of the core book...

Here is the quote again:

QUOTE
An astrally perceiving
(or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a
target in either the physical world or in astral space.

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What is the point of the magemask then? It breaks a mages ability to see and therefore target. It also distracts them, but that's not here nor there. If a mage cannot see something they cannot visually target it, which is what is being argued and is a cheap workaround of a negative quality.

A mage mask places a barrier through which the Mage so encumbered cannot see/perceive through... It still has a barrier that extends to his astral perception... which is why you can no longer cast spells...

As far as a cheap workaround, I disagree... it has consequences if you use it... sometimes very deadly consequences... and you could get around the quality quite easily with technological means (with an UltraWideband Radar System for example) if you really wanted to do so... so it is really not all that big of deal...

Keep the Faith

[Angelone]

It's cheap because it's an inate ability of the character, they lose niether money or essense for the ability to astrally percieve. It has consequences sure but it's the same for all mages.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's cheap because it's an inate ability of the character, they lose niether money or essense for the ability to astrally percieve. It has consequences sure but it's the same for all mages.

And I say again... So what? The technological solution does not open you up to attack from Astral Space and still costs no essence (if you are using it only to perceive the world around you, such as it is) or a minimal amount of essence otherwise... as such I do not see it as a real problem. The dangers far outweigh the benefits, you will most likely not travel around with Astral Perception constantly activated... it will get you dead pretty fast... just ask any other Dual Natured creature how much it sucks to be attacked in Astral space and have nothing that you can do about it... Of course, you could always turn it off, unlike true Dual natured Creatures, but still...

Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

[HugeC]

Yes he can, becasue the book says that they can do so on page 191 of the core book...

Here is the quote again:

I think we are arguing the same thing here. The rules you quoted talk about casting spells. Yes, a mage using astral perception can target things on the physical or astral with spells. He cannot see (with his eyeballs) the physical world while astrally perceiving, which is why whether or not he is physically blind is irrelevant.

Peace be upon you, sir.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think we are arguing the same thing here. The rules you quoted talk about casting spells. Yes, a mage using astral perception can target things on the physical or astral with spells. He cannot see (with his eyeballs) the physical world while astrally perceiving, which is why whether or not he is physically blind is irrelevant.

Peace be upon you, sir.

Indeed, Sorry...

Keep the Faith

[Walpurgisborn]

That seems like a horrid analogy. You can fire a gun at something, thus you can cast a spell at them? To fire a gun you just need to point in the right direction and bang, you shoot them. You can use a computer to aim and fire a gun, but you cannot use a computer to target a spell, so your analogy obviously falls through very quickly.

Personally, I'd love to see someone fire a gun and hit without LOS.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally, I'd love to see someone fire a gun and hit without LOS.

Can happen, though it is generally a "Luck" thing... unless you have been trained to do so... our Machine Gun teams in the Corps (Echo COmpany 2nd Batallion 7th Marines) often trained in this technique, and they were surprisingly accurate, as long as they had good spotters... In fact, Most, if not all, indirect fire lacks that necessary LOS, and yet indirect fire can be exceedingly accurate, at least in the American Military anyways (as long as your teams are trained well anyways)...

Keep the Faith

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Anyone else here think its contradictory that under Astral Perception it says that mages can't view both planes at the same time and under Dual Natured it says they can view both planes at the same time? Especially considering that an Astrally Perceiving mage specifically becomes dual-natured (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) . Honestly, the rules aren't particularly vague on this main issue though. A mage may target a physical person while astrally perceiving. This is because you may target to either plane while dual-natured, regardless of which plane you are viewing. An astrally perceiving mage may also cast LOS spells to the physical plane while perceiving, as per page 160 of Street Magic where it says

Line of Sight (LOS): The spell can target anything the caster
can physically see or assense, regardless of the distance (see p.
173, SR4). The caster may not target anything that is completely
behind cover or otherwise obscured. Since the caster only needs
to see part of the target, a Perception Test may be necessary to
see if the caster can spot enough of the target to cast. Visibility
modifiers apply to the Spellcasting Test.

This was mentioned by jimbo above but it seems to have been ignored so I've said it again. For those worried about mages sniping from the astral because of this, don't be. As long as the mage remains purely astral he cannot effect the physical world, as specifically stated again on page 160 of street magic as one of the things magic can never do.

[DireRadiant]

p. 183 Choose the Target

"The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between
caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana
of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the
basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch. Line
of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through
transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting
modifiers. As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing
device or other technological rendering of the target does not
establish the necessary link."

All you need to figure out is if Astral Perception counts for establishing the Mystic Link.

But this is followed in the same section by

"An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space"

So you do get that Astral Perception can be used to cast physical spells in the physical plane.

The above quotes are directly from the main section on how to target spells.