More Pixie Madness, Monofilament Whip Options

[TommyTwoToes]

Diverging back to the WF topic, I am AFB but it was my impression that the materials and design were fundemental to creating a focus of any type (fluff). One of those two requirements should exclude nearly all technological weapons as foci.

Using the Monofilament whip as an example, the actual Monofiliment can't really be sculpted into a mystically signifigant shape and still retain it's proprerties as a whip, likewise the monomolecular material probably can't be made of just any compound or element.

[Whipstitch]

Diverging back to the WF topic, I am AFB but it was my impression that the materials and design were fundemental to creating a focus of any type (fluff). One of those two requirements should exclude nearly all technological weapons as foci.

Highly processed telesma can make things harder, but it doesn't say that processed objects are so hard to use that a non-ranged weapon is ever excluded from being a weapon focus. Magic is partly about faith and symbolism, to be sure, but it appears that often times such things are necessary only because of the user's limitations. Traditions, talismans, and Centering gestures give the Awakened person a mental template so they can leverage their talent in a more controlled manner. But with that said, barely sapient creatures, magical "knacks" and traditions that often contradict themselves show that magic is pretty unpredictable and doesn't necessarily need all that much order to happen. Hurdles can often be cleared.

So yes, a monowhip is a highly processed object and in many ways it's a fantastical weapon that's hard to understand and is largely bereft of symbolism and tradition. All of that makes it hard to incorporate into magical design. But the RAW only says that it is hard to enchant processed telesma, not that it is impossible,* and you can incorporate material aids such as orichalcum into the construction to help compensate. As such I see no reason why a player shouldn't be allowed to attune to a whip and still have it function if they have the prerequisite magical talent, discipline and resources to pull off the feat. At the end of the day the monowhip still supposedly operates by being really sharp and having a weight on the end of it to give it some momentum. Its construction is exotic, not its operation, sci-fi movie physics aside. Besides, some traditions are quite comfortable subverting modern developments and incorporating them into the old ways.

*Seriously guys, you can enchant your commlink so that it helps you do things that have absolutely nothing to do with being a commlink. Like soaking the drain on summoning tests-- I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the symbolism of being a magical commlink doesn't come into play with most traditions. Yet it is possible. Compared to that, I'd think it would be easy to make a monowhip into a magical monowhip that does the kinds of things you'd expect from a magical monowhip on the astral.

[The Dragon Girl]

I don't think pixies count as metahumans or metavariants do they? Can you even SURGE them by RAW?

EDIT: Thats not to say I don't want creepy dwarfs with wings in my game, but....

Y'know I asked about this months ago? You can have giant pixies -and- dwarf pixies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I had been curious about the range of sizes at the extreme ends, my little hacker is small enough to almost qualify for dwarfism (the condition) as a pixie at just a foot high.

[Badmoodguy88]

I know this topic is a little old but I still wanted to post my thoughts.

Back to people bonding a harpoon weapon focus. I think it could work (and be fair) provided the rope or chain the harpoon was tied to was permanently attached and enchanted as part of the weapon focus.

Weapon Focus-Karma Cost (3 + Weapon Reach) x Force

It becomes prohibitively expensive. One could have a force one harpoon with a long reach. But if any part of the focus is destroyed the whole thing is destroyed, right? If the chain or rope is cut then the whole thing is toast.

As for enchaining a monofilament whip: the only place I could see Orichalcum being added to the business end of the weapon is on the weighted tip. Even added a very fine mist of vaporized Orichalcum to settle and bond to the wire would make the wire possibly to think to be used as a weapon. But maybe it would work. Just plating would definitely not work but if it were more like a few microscopic particles evenly, but distantly, dispersed, then it might be plausible.


Both the harpoon and the monofilament whip might still unbalance the game a bit, but the whip I think is ok. I kind of thought it would not be ok but the rulebooks do not specificaly say monofilament whips can't be enchanted, so why not enchant it?

[Whipstitch]

The thing with orichalcum is that it is described as utterly absurd, so it's a tough thing to disallow. Still, I always considered the weighted tip to be an obvious choice and ultimately orichalcum is just a facilitator anyway. Regardless, weapon foci aren't really that big of a deal, for the most part. Melee weapons are frankly easy to defend against relative to other attack types, after all, likely in part due to their unique position as a source of both offense and defense. So while it's nice to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons, it is often balanced out by the target's ability to retain Skill dice or even count Skill twice if they go on Full Defense, a tactic that's hardly uncommon given that even weak spirits have 2 passes. Further, the Astral utility of weapon foci isn't really that big of a deal given that Astral Projectors are Magicians and thus are usually capable of taking Mana Bolt as an inexpensive alternative.

As far as monowhips specifically are concerned, the damage code is indeed terribly nasty as a weapon for wimpy runners, but they cannot be specialized in and characters with big muscles can beat the damage code out with other weapons. You end up needing a Force 3+ focus to start coming out ahead on dice pool sizes compared to a swordsman with a favored weapon and if he's an Adept with a weapon focus you can't really expect to catch up without starting to give up your karma advantage. In short, monowhips are excellent because they are easily concealed and allow a runner to mount a credible melee threat with minimal BP/Karma investment in close combat. Just don't expect to fight on even terms with a Escrima Adept or a cybered MMA enthusiast with a couple of Ultimate Champion armored cyberarms. You'll get wrecked.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The thing with orichalcum is that it is described as utterly absurd, so it's a tough thing to disallow. Still, I always considered the weighted tip to be an obvious choice and ultimately orichalcum is just a facilitator anyway. Regardless, weapon foci aren't really that big of a deal, for the most part. Melee weapons are frankly easy to defend against relative to other attack types, after all, likely in part due to their unique position as a source of both offense and defense. So while it's nice to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons, it is often balanced out by the target's ability to retain Skill dice or even count Skill twice if they go on Full Defense, a tactic that's hardly uncommon given that even weak spirits have 2 passes. Further, the Astral utility of weapon foci isn't really that big of a deal given that Astral Projectors are Magicians and thus are usually capable of taking Mana Bolt as an inexpensive alternative.

As far as monowhips specifically are concerned, the damage code is indeed terribly nasty as a weapon for wimpy runners, but they cannot be specialized in and characters with big muscles can beat the damage code out with other weapons. You end up needing a Force 3+ focus to start coming out ahead on dice pool sizes compared to a swordsman with a favored weapon and if he's an Adept with a weapon focus you can't really expect to catch up without starting to give up your karma advantage. In short, monowhips are excellent because they are easily concealed and allow a runner to mount a credible melee threat with minimal BP/Karma investment in close combat. Just don't expect to fight on even terms with a Escrima Adept or a cybered MMA enthusiast with a couple of Ultimate Champion armored cyberarms. You'll get wrecked.

Why exactly can you not specialize the use of a Monofilament Whip? I would think that EW: Monifilament Whip (Called Shots +2) would be perfectly acceptable... but I am away from my books currently, so maybe it says that Exotic Weapons may not have specializations, I don't know...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

No, you can't specialize Exotics. Is Called Shots a valid specialization anyway?

[Whipstitch]

Exotic Weapons have a big ol' fat N/A listed under their specializations. I imagine that this is due to weapon specializations being limited to type and to defense tests in all other examples. Taking the Monowhip skill with the specialization in monowhips does sound a pinch redundant, after all.

[Glyph]

I actually liked it better in third edition, when monofilament whips fell under the whips category, where you at least had a few other useful options (that ninja sickle and chain weapon, etc.), and could specialize in monofilament whip. Still, like Whipstich said, it's a good choice if you want a lot of bang for your BP's, along with very good concealability.

[Dakka Dakka]

Back to Tasers and other elemental but mundane damage.
Neither tasers nor any other elemental damage (electrical, fire, acid etc.) bypass ItNW per se no matter the power output. ItNW has a number of exceptions, but being elemental damage is not one of them. A taser or a flamethrower (weapon) do not get any benefit except their normal stats (-half impact) against spirits, the lightning bolt or flamethrower/fireball (spell) of course do pierce ItNW. This is not because of more power but because they are spells which are explicit exceptions to ItNW.

The confusion may have come from SR3 where indirect Combat Spells with an elemental effect were called Elemental Manipulations, and some people extended their powers against spirits to mundane elemental effects for some reason. This is not the case in SR4 and I doubt it was in SR3.

[Mongoose]

How does somebody who is uneducated end up with maxed out skill in a highly technological exotic weapon?

[Yerameyahu]

Very carefully. *rimshot*

[Dakka Dakka]

How does somebody who is uneducated end up with maxed out skill in a highly technological exotic weapon?

Simple Answer, just as anyone else: by acquiring one and training. Uneducated does not limit your access to technology or training in Combat skills.

That is a problem with how Exotic Weapon skills work, not with the Uneducated flaw. Contrary to all other very broad weapon skills the exotic weapon skills only apply to one kind of weapon.

[Traul]

Is there a specific monofilament whip skill rather than a general whip skill?

[Mongoose]

Uneducated does not limit your access to technology ....

Not by the strict letter of the mechanics, no. But the quality description makes it pretty clear (from examples) that it is intended for use by characters who haven't had much interaction with the modern world, typically because they are members of reclusive social groups.

A skill level of 6 is world class. You don't achieve world class skill without training or interfacing with other experts in the field. You don't get training andf knowledge sharing in a high tech weapon that only a very few people even know how to use (let alone access to a magical version of said weapon) without some connections to the modern world.

Unless maybe you propose that a big spool of monowire, some cutters, and a box of clamps "fell off the back of a truck" near some pixie tribe's territory, and they developed a cultural expertise in the manufacture and use of monowhips, or some such? Of course, such easy construction doesn't gibe with the weapon's very high availability... but that's a flaw in the weapon description ever since SR1. You've got monowire used on industrial scales (or at least in large amounts as affordable security fencing), but monowhips being rare as hens teeth (and very pricey).
Maybe he was adopted / purchased by a crazed monowhip expert who trained him relentlessly but never let him watch trid or go outside?

[Dakka Dakka]

Level 6 in any skill and nobody that knows about the character's expertise is always less than plausible, but that is the default. Otherwise you would always have to slap Fame or at least a point of Public Awareness on such characters.

I'm not sure how badly this build needs the BP but there is always the option to buy off the quality at CharGen.

BTW am I missing something or is the Pixie pretty squishy?

Is there a specific monofilament whip skill rather than a general whip skill?

Nope, In SR4 there is only Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip). Since there is no other whip IIRC there is no point for another exotic weapon skill.
I would have preferred to add the skill flexible weapon to the close combat group.

[Whipstitch]

Making a pixie that -isn't- squishy is an uphill battle, considering they hard cap at Body 3 without augmentation or an Exceptional Attribute analogue. I have a tough time disagreeing with the decision to bet on defense pools instead of trying to make the soak pool into something more robust.

[Combat Mage]

Nope, In SR4 there is only Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip). Since there is no other whip IIRC there is no point for another exotic weapon skill.
I would have preferred to add the skill flexible weapon to the close combat group.

There is a regular whip in Arsenal.

[Yerameyahu]

Whip is an exotic weapon, as well. They're pretty distinct, but maybe you could get the GM to let you use both. But… who'd ever use a whip?

[Traul]

A dominatrix?

[Stahlseele]

Indianer Jones?

[Whipstitch]

Even Indy only really used it for disarms and as a tool though. Still, fighting Indy without a weapon didn't go so well for most people.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs* use is use ^^

[Traul]

And disarm gets a whole new sense when you try to do the trick with a monofilament whip (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Stahlseele]

that's the most abused pun ever . .