Calculating Damage, Is this game really *that* deadly? Options

[NotoriusBEN]

Ok, I am GM'ing 4th Edition for a group for the 1st time and I just want to ask some of the regulars around here and make sure my math is correct.

Ok... 1ST INSTANCE...

Street Samurai with:
+Agility: 4 (6 with cybermods)
+Automatics: 4

SCK Model 100
Damage: 5P Armor Pierce : 0 Mode : BF, FA RC: 4 Conceal : 0 Ammo : 30 © Smartgun, Folding Stock, Built-in Silencer, Built-in Thermal Supressor, Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3, Chameleon Coating, Gas-Vent 3 system, 1 extra clip

Plasic Rounds : Damage 0, Armor Pierce -1 at Long-plus range

Chameleon Suit
+ Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
+ Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)

She fired 2 Narrow Bursts at the Hostile with the following dice mods: +2 smartlink, -0recoil (Gas Vent) +0 Short range, -4 for called headshot) Attack Rolls: 8d6 = 2hits, 8d6= 4hits

She was invisible from the Chameleon Suit and pretty much surprised the goon so he had no defense and no helmet.
So the damage is 2hits + 5P (gun) = 7 +4 (called headshot) = 11P + 2(narrow Burst) = 13Physical damage from just the 1st burst
Needless to say, the second burst killed him.

NOW 2ND INSTANCE...
Elf Gun-fu Adept
Agility 8 (11 with Muscle Toner R3) (Agi Attrib quality to get to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Pistols 6 (+2 Semi-Automatics)
Martial Arts 1 (Firefight, ~multistrike ~full offense)

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster

She went walked into melee range, quick draw'ed both pistols (succeeded) and also attacked again with both (2 simple actions, 4 attacks, 11 base dice split per attack (-2 for firing in melee (normally -3, reduced by Firefight Quality), +2 for point-blank range, +1 for Multi-Strike technique, for 12 dice total per attack)) Attacks were: 5hits, 5hits, 4hits, 6hits
Goon Defense was: 2hits, 3hits, 2hits, 1hit
1st Attack = 3 net hits + 5 DV = 8 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 8 Phys
1st Damage Defense = 3 Defense Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 8P - 2hits = 6 Phys Dmg.

2nd Attack = 3 hits - 1 (add'l Defense) - 2 (wound mod) = 5 net hits + 5 DV = 10 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 10 Phys
2nd Damage Defense = 3 Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 10P -2hits = 8 Phys Dmg

and I stopped because he was dead.

I hope I gave enough information and that my math is right. Im just... wow'ed by the shear carnage they unleashed. thanks in advance.

[Daylen]

wow that's a large amount of unnecessary typing. Without reading any of it I can still answer YES; shadowrun is THAT deadly. Even for the most heavily augmented death can come fast.

[NotoriusBEN]

ok, *phew*, thanks.

Coming from the ponderous damage dealing of DnD4e to Shadowrun is quite a shock ( yes, I am now a pariah 'cuz of DnD (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

But I guess it trends well... bullets are a lot more traumatic than swords (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[pbangarth]

In this game, even swords kill quickly.

[Ramorta]

First, I would add that it does not look like you had the target roll to resist damage. They can not attempt to dodge, but they still get to apply any worn armor to the resistance test. Your called shot to the head increases damage, but its not a called shot to ignore armor. If it was a called shot to ignore armor, you would significantly reduce your attackers dice pool by -1 per point of armor. (Due to the way shadowruns armor system works, you still get to soak even if your not wearing a helmet and your shot in the head.) Otherwise, Yes, Shadowrun ~IS~ that deadly.

[Daylen]

for DND think Song of Roland, where its kinda a tall tale about kings or other important dudes wading through swaths of arab/african invaders.

Shadowrun is more of a modern tale in the film noir genre except with no guarantee that the hero will only be shot in the arm and have a minor flesh wound. like in real life bullets and blades can be deadly and fists hurt.

[Deadmannumberone]

Ok... 1ST INSTANCE...

Street Samurai with:
+Agility: 4 (6 with cybermods)
+Automatics: 4

SCK Model 100
Damage: 5P Armor Pierce : 0 Mode : BF, FA RC: 4 Conceal : 0 Ammo : 30 © Smartgun, Folding Stock, Built-in Silencer, Built-in Thermal Supressor, Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3, Chameleon Coating, Gas-Vent 3 system, 1 extra clip

Plasic Rounds : Damage 0, Armor Pierce -1 at Long-plus range

Chameleon Suit
+ Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
+ Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)

She fired 2 Narrow Bursts at the Hostile with the following dice mods: +2 smartlink, -0recoil (Gas Vent) +0 Short range, -4 for called headshot) Attack Rolls: 8d6 = 2hits, 8d6= 4hits

She was invisible from the Chameleon Suit and pretty much surprised the goon so he had no defense and no helmet.
So the damage is 2hits + 5P (gun) = 7 +4 (called headshot) = 11P + 2(narrow Burst) = 13Physical damage from just the 1st burst
Needless to say, the second burst killed him.

First off, the gun breaks the rules. It has 8 points of mods (six is the limit), the silencer cannot be installed on a weapon that has BF or FA modes (has to be a suppressor), and the silencer/suppressor include the thermal suppressor, making the two mods incompatible. Additionally, you cannot use gas vent recoil reduction and sound suppression on the same attack (switching is a standard action normally, or a free action with a smartlinked weapon).

NOW 2ND INSTANCE...
Elf Gun-fu Adept
Agility 8 (11 with Muscle Toner R3) (Agi Attrib quality to get to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Pistols 6 (+2 Semi-Automatics)
Martial Arts 1 (Firefight, ~multistrike ~full offense)

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster

She went walked into melee range, quick draw'ed both pistols (succeeded) and also attacked again with both (2 simple actions, 4 attacks, 11 base dice split per attack (-2 for firing in melee (normally -3, reduced by Firefight Quality), +2 for point-blank range, +1 for Multi-Strike technique, for 12 dice total per attack)) Attacks were: 5hits, 5hits, 4hits, 6hits
Goon Defense was: 2hits, 3hits, 2hits, 1hit
1st Attack = 3 net hits + 5 DV = 8 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 8 Phys
1st Damage Defense = 3 Defense Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 8P - 2hits = 6 Phys Dmg.

2nd Attack = 3 hits - 1 (add'l Defense) - 2 (wound mod) = 5 net hits + 5 DV = 10 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 10 Phys
2nd Damage Defense = 3 Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 10P -2hits = 8 Phys Dmg

and I stopped because he was dead.

A few things missed here;
You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.

You forgot recoil, only the first two attacks would have had no penalty, with the third and fourth getting -1, and -2 respectively.

Wound penalty applies to the dice pool, not the hits.

Im just... wow'ed by the shear carnage they unleashed. thanks in advance.

Welcome to the shadows. Now just wait 'til they get to know the rules better.

[Tanegar]

Shadowrun is very much a game of glass cannons. He who shoots first, normally also shoots last.

[Mantis]

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster

Also this gun has -1 AP not 0. Heavy pistol. Also also as others have said, yup it is that deadly. Best advice, try not to get shot.

[Daylen]

and the way to challenge players is not big nasties. Instead just use enough weak baddies so at least some are guaranteed to get some successful hits on players. Well challenged fights in SR seem more like a game of cat and mouse where the cat has an ingram and the mice/mouse has grenade/rocket launchers. Bad DMs/players seem to think it should be like a boxing match; and its bad because they forget the fighters don't have gloves on and instead have guns which makes death and/or severe injury the outcome for both.

[NotoriusBEN]

right-o thanks guys. Im running Food Fight 4.0 (with custom characters), and everyone's help plus this quick module is helping me shake out all the nuances. Much appreciated

[Dakka Dakka]

A few things missed here;
You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.

That is wrong.

Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.

In the above example it is:
(AGI 11 + Pistols 6)/2=17/2 So you could go for 9 dice on one attack and 8 on the other. Any other split is possible as well.
So the attacks each Simple Action are:
Attack 1: 9 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 11
Attack 2: 8 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 10

*note that if the character is shooting two weapons simultaneously, uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other as well. So just from that each roll in the second simple action gets another -2.


Multi-Strike only applies if the character attacks more than one opponent with a melee attack.

Under ideal conditions this does not make much of a difference, but wait till you rack up on negative modifiers.

[Deadmannumberone]

That is wrong.

Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.

In the above example it is:
(AGI 11 + Pistols 6)/2=17/2 So you could go for 9 dice on one attack and 8 on the other. Any other split is possible as well.
So the attacks each Simple Action are:
Attack 1: 9 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 11
Attack 2: 8 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 10

*note that if the character is shooting two weapons simultaneously, uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other as well. So just from that each roll in the second simple action gets another -2.


Multi-Strike only applies if the character attacks more than one opponent with a melee attack.

Under ideal conditions this does not make much of a difference, but wait till you rack up on negative modifiers.

Missed the note about applying modifiers after splitting the DP.

Though I always thought that specialization was an increase to the skill not a modifier.

Also checked it, and multi-strike applies when attacking multiple opponents, or using multiple weapons (and no mention of melee only), however it can only be applied to one pool, not both.

[Dakka Dakka]

Though I always thought that specialization was an increase to the skill not a modifier.

But it isn't:

Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.

Also checked it, and multi-strike applies when attacking multiple opponents, or using multiple weapons (and no mention of melee only), however it can only be applied to one pool, not both.

Let's look at the relevant passage:

Apply a +1 dice pool modifier to the total dice pool (not the split dice pools) whenever the character attacks more than one opponent in the same action (see Multiple Targets, p. 148, SR4) or attacks with two melee weapons at once (see p. 163).

The page reference p. 148, SR4 only concerns itself with melee combat and the two weapons explicitly have to be melee weapons.

[Draco18s]

I'd also like to point out that your examples are edge cases:

A sniper engaging a target at long range wins. No dice needed.

As for an Elf with 11+ Agility requires hard-maxing the stat and getting extremely expensive bioware PLUS buying Pistols up to 6. No other skill can be raised above 4 at chargen. And then engaged in melee for no apparent reason (seriously, you took a quality to get +1 back for being in melee when you could have stepped back five feet and had the same dice pool).

-3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) = +0. Congrats. The benefit? The other guy gets a -2 to his dodge and a -3 for shooting back. But good luck actually closing the distance.

You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.

This is also wrong also, I believe. 11 Agl + 6 skill -> 17 dice (split). Leaves 8 and 9 dice plus mods (dice modifiers are after the split):
9 +2 (spec) -3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) +1 (multistrike) = 13
8 +2 (spec) -3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) +1 (multistrike) = 12

And if you want to get crazy, add the Synthcardium, or whatever it is that grants a bonus to physical active skills and a R4 tacnet. That's +7 dice to each split pool (there's a character that does it in a game I'm in, he's new, so its ok that the GM built him a raging death machine on crack).

[Deadmannumberone]

But it isn't:

Everything else is specifically stated to be a modifier (as well as being listed in the big lists of modifiers), specializations are left a bit ambiguous.

Let's look at the relevant passage:
The page reference p. 148, SR4 only concerns itself with melee combat and the two weapons explicitly have to be melee weapons.

Okay, yeah. I has the dum on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Man-of-many-Char...]

Hi!

Though I wouldn't put my hands in flames for this:
First off, YES, it is deadly if done evil.

BUT: I think in the first example at least recoil was not done right. As already mentioned either gv or suppressor, and I don't think it was enough recoil compensation. I am reading the german version at the time, and there is 2 for the first burst and 3 for the second. Next, visibility modifiers are great. Distance and cover make the rest up.

And if he lived to soak a second burst you rolled quite impressive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As already mentioned the splitting of the dice pool was done incorrectly. If I remember correctly the pool has to be split. The pool consists of attribute and skill.
But that is already explained above.

Hope I could help.

Man-of-many-Char
-----------------------
Player since 2.01D
Proud owner of SR4ALE 1188

[Adarael]

On the flip side of the coin, I ran a game where a dude with a Agility 4, Heavy Weapons 4, and a smartlinked HMG (what is that, 7p? 8p?) suffering no recoil fired for three full passes at a charging troll Physad, and did precisely 2 boxes of damage to him, because the troll was a huge damage sponge.

So, yes. Often deadly. Sometimes, not so much, especially if your PCs invest in a shitton of armor.

[Dakka Dakka]

A pool of 10 isn't that great. A recoilless HMG with the right ammo (SnS) and a pool of 17+ should take down the troll fairly faster.

[Whipstitch]

Dicepools are a funny thing. Sure, 10 isn't that great but it is competent whereas 17+ is heading into "Man, are you an Adept or just the best that ever lived?" territory. Particularly considering that usually people take Heavy Weapons as more of a "rainy day" skill for shooting airburst grenades or for those times when your trusty concealed predator won't do the job. You know, like when a troll physad is charging you and turns out to be a huge damage sponge.

And actually, if you want to use stick and shock, what's the point in using an HMG? Might as well just get yourself a TMP in that case and save yourself some headaches the next time you get pulled over.

[Dakka Dakka]

If you load up on SnS you can do that with any FA-capable handgun. No extra skill needed. Does anyone actually use holdouts?

[Whipstitch]

And if you want to get crazy, add the Synthcardium, or whatever it is that grants a bonus to physical active skills and a R4 tacnet. That's +7 dice to each split pool (there's a character that does it in a game I'm in, he's new, so its ok that the GM built him a raging death machine on crack).

Actually, Synthacardium adds dice to Athletic tests and Enhanced Articulation add one die to tests involving Physical skills linked to Physical attributes. The capital "P' on Physical skills is important and there for a reason; it means it adds dice to tests to the skills in the Physical category, like the Athletics group and the parts of the Stealth group that don't use Intuition. It doesn't add dice to any of the Combat skills anymore, which is why it is still good but no longer called Enhanced Artwinkulation like some people did back in its glory days in earlier editions.

If you load up on SnS you can do that with any FA-capable handgun. No extra skill needed. Does anyone actually use holdouts?

Yes. You can tweak holdouts to be at least semi-auto easily enough, and the Morrissey Élan is semi-auto by default and undetectable by MAD scanners, making it perhaps the best friend of any Face-on-the-go when loaded with SnS-- toss in a chameleon coating and the nasty li'l thing is literally easier to hide than a standard RFID tag. After all, if you're using stick and shock it actually hits just as hard as a Predator or even a sniper rifle for that matter. That's why I made the offhand comment that bothering to continue using an unwieldy HMG with stick and shock would be a rather odd choice. You'd really get nothing but ammo capacity and range out of the deal. HMGs are what you use when you feel like perforating some poor slot with a hail of APDS just to make sure they stay dead. They're too unwieldy and horribly, horribly illegal to be worth using for anything else. I guess you could use HMGs all the time if you really, really wanted to, but at that point you're likely playing a different flavor of Shadowrun than my group does.

[Octopiii]

And then engaged in melee for no apparent reason (seriously, you took a quality to get +1 back for being in melee when you could have stepped back five feet and had the same dice pool).

Actually, leaving melee combat prompts an intercept attack. So, gun bunny would have gotten smacked again, and then the melee expert would do it again on the next pass with a charge attack, which gives them +2 for free. So yes, the quality is useful.

[The Jopp]

Hmm, a small clarification about specialisation.

Attribute: X
Skill: Y
Specialization: +Z
Modifier: M

Dicepool Calculation becomes
X+Y+M+Z

Dual Wield:
(X+Y+M)/2 +2

Dual wield dicepool are always at a minimum of 3 with a specialization since you always round the dicepool up to the nearest number.

[Adarael]

A pool of 10 isn't that great. A recoilless HMG with the right ammo (SnS) and a pool of 17+ should take down the troll fairly faster.

Let me ask you two simple questions, based purely on RPG versimilitude:

1) Why would a crazy highwayman with minimal cyber have a diepool of 17+? That's black ops turf, not some ganger in Azerbaijan.
2) What kind of jackass loads Stick and Shock into a HMG, and where did he get the money to make that a wise choice? These were guys sticking up vehicles to make ends meet - again, in backwater Azerbaijan.

In either case, it wouldn't have made THAT much difference, anyway. He'd have been soaking with 13 dice instead of 16 dice before Body was factored in, since I believe he had Nonconductive 6 on his armor anyhow. 12 ballistic, worn, + 4 Mystic armor, for a total of 16, vs 10 Impact + 4 Mystic Armor + 1 Troll Dermal = 14 (halved to 7) + 6 Nonconductive.

Trust me, when I want to pull out all the stops, I know how to tweak the game to *make* it lethal, but it kind of has to make sense for me to do so. A random ganger or punk isn't gonna be rolling 20 dice, have a rating 4 tacnet running, with drone backup. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, unless there's a reason to make it lethal.