Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Calculating Damage
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
NotoriusBEN
Ok, I am GM'ing 4th Edition for a group for the 1st time and I just want to ask some of the regulars around here and make sure my math is correct.

Ok... 1ST INSTANCE...

Street Samurai with:
+Agility: 4 (6 with cybermods)
+Automatics: 4

SCK Model 100
Damage: 5P Armor Pierce : 0 Mode : BF, FA RC: 4 Conceal : 0 Ammo : 30 © Smartgun, Folding Stock, Built-in Silencer, Built-in Thermal Supressor, Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3, Chameleon Coating, Gas-Vent 3 system, 1 extra clip

Plasic Rounds : Damage 0, Armor Pierce -1 at Long-plus range

Chameleon Suit
+ Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
+ Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)

She fired 2 Narrow Bursts at the Hostile with the following dice mods: +2 smartlink, -0recoil (Gas Vent) +0 Short range, -4 for called headshot) Attack Rolls: 8d6 = 2hits, 8d6= 4hits

She was invisible from the Chameleon Suit and pretty much surprised the goon so he had no defense and no helmet.
So the damage is 2hits + 5P (gun) = 7 +4 (called headshot) = 11P + 2(narrow Burst) = 13Physical damage from just the 1st burst
Needless to say, the second burst killed him.


NOW 2ND INSTANCE...
Elf Gun-fu Adept
Agility 8 (11 with Muscle Toner R3) (Agi Attrib quality to get to cool.gif
Pistols 6 (+2 Semi-Automatics)
Martial Arts 1 (Firefight, ~multistrike ~full offense)

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster

She went walked into melee range, quick draw'ed both pistols (succeeded) and also attacked again with both (2 simple actions, 4 attacks, 11 base dice split per attack (-2 for firing in melee (normally -3, reduced by Firefight Quality), +2 for point-blank range, +1 for Multi-Strike technique, for 12 dice total per attack)) Attacks were: 5hits, 5hits, 4hits, 6hits
Goon Defense was: 2hits, 3hits, 2hits, 1hit
1st Attack = 3 net hits + 5 DV = 8 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 8 Phys
1st Damage Defense = 3 Defense Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 8P - 2hits = 6 Phys Dmg.

2nd Attack = 3 hits - 1 (add'l Defense) - 2 (wound mod) = 5 net hits + 5 DV = 10 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 10 Phys
2nd Damage Defense = 3 Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 10P -2hits = 8 Phys Dmg

and I stopped because he was dead.


I hope I gave enough information and that my math is right. Im just... wow'ed by the shear carnage they unleashed. thanks in advance.
Daylen
wow that's a large amount of unnecessary typing. Without reading any of it I can still answer YES; shadowrun is THAT deadly. Even for the most heavily augmented death can come fast.
NotoriusBEN
ok, *phew*, thanks.

Coming from the ponderous damage dealing of DnD4e to Shadowrun is quite a shock ( yes, I am now a pariah 'cuz of DnD nyahnyah.gif )

But I guess it trends well... bullets are a lot more traumatic than swords nyahnyah.gif
pbangarth
In this game, even swords kill quickly.
Ramorta
First, I would add that it does not look like you had the target roll to resist damage. They can not attempt to dodge, but they still get to apply any worn armor to the resistance test. Your called shot to the head increases damage, but its not a called shot to ignore armor. If it was a called shot to ignore armor, you would significantly reduce your attackers dice pool by -1 per point of armor. (Due to the way shadowruns armor system works, you still get to soak even if your not wearing a helmet and your shot in the head.) Otherwise, Yes, Shadowrun ~IS~ that deadly.
Daylen
for DND think Song of Roland, where its kinda a tall tale about kings or other important dudes wading through swaths of arab/african invaders.

Shadowrun is more of a modern tale in the film noir genre except with no guarantee that the hero will only be shot in the arm and have a minor flesh wound. like in real life bullets and blades can be deadly and fists hurt.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (NotoriusBEN @ May 16 2010, 05:39 PM) *
Ok... 1ST INSTANCE...

Street Samurai with:
+Agility: 4 (6 with cybermods)
+Automatics: 4

SCK Model 100
Damage: 5P Armor Pierce : 0 Mode : BF, FA RC: 4 Conceal : 0 Ammo : 30 © Smartgun, Folding Stock, Built-in Silencer, Built-in Thermal Supressor, Ceramic/Plasteel Components Level 3, Chameleon Coating, Gas-Vent 3 system, 1 extra clip

Plasic Rounds : Damage 0, Armor Pierce -1 at Long-plus range

Chameleon Suit
+ Fire Resistance (Rating 2)
+ Thermal Dampening (Rating 6)

She fired 2 Narrow Bursts at the Hostile with the following dice mods: +2 smartlink, -0recoil (Gas Vent) +0 Short range, -4 for called headshot) Attack Rolls: 8d6 = 2hits, 8d6= 4hits

She was invisible from the Chameleon Suit and pretty much surprised the goon so he had no defense and no helmet.
So the damage is 2hits + 5P (gun) = 7 +4 (called headshot) = 11P + 2(narrow Burst) = 13Physical damage from just the 1st burst
Needless to say, the second burst killed him.


First off, the gun breaks the rules. It has 8 points of mods (six is the limit), the silencer cannot be installed on a weapon that has BF or FA modes (has to be a suppressor), and the silencer/suppressor include the thermal suppressor, making the two mods incompatible. Additionally, you cannot use gas vent recoil reduction and sound suppression on the same attack (switching is a standard action normally, or a free action with a smartlinked weapon).

QUOTE (NotoriusBEN @ May 16 2010, 05:39 PM) *
NOW 2ND INSTANCE...
Elf Gun-fu Adept
Agility 8 (11 with Muscle Toner R3) (Agi Attrib quality to get to cool.gif
Pistols 6 (+2 Semi-Automatics)
Martial Arts 1 (Firefight, ~multistrike ~full offense)

Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster

She went walked into melee range, quick draw'ed both pistols (succeeded) and also attacked again with both (2 simple actions, 4 attacks, 11 base dice split per attack (-2 for firing in melee (normally -3, reduced by Firefight Quality), +2 for point-blank range, +1 for Multi-Strike technique, for 12 dice total per attack)) Attacks were: 5hits, 5hits, 4hits, 6hits
Goon Defense was: 2hits, 3hits, 2hits, 1hit
1st Attack = 3 net hits + 5 DV = 8 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 8 Phys
1st Damage Defense = 3 Defense Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 8P - 2hits = 6 Phys Dmg.

2nd Attack = 3 hits - 1 (add'l Defense) - 2 (wound mod) = 5 net hits + 5 DV = 10 DV vs. "6/4 Armor" = 10 Phys
2nd Damage Defense = 3 Pool + 3 Body + 6 Armor = 10P -2hits = 8 Phys Dmg

and I stopped because he was dead.


A few things missed here;
You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.

You forgot recoil, only the first two attacks would have had no penalty, with the third and fourth getting -1, and -2 respectively.

Wound penalty applies to the dice pool, not the hits.

QUOTE (NotoriusBEN @ May 16 2010, 05:39 PM) *
Im just... wow'ed by the shear carnage they unleashed. thanks in advance.


Welcome to the shadows. Now just wait 'til they get to know the rules better.
Tanegar
Shadowrun is very much a game of glass cannons. He who shoots first, normally also shoots last.
Mantis
QUOTE
Weapons:
Colt Government 2066 x2 Damage: 5P Armor Pierce: 0
+Silencer (Mod), Melee Hardening, Skinlink, Quickdraw Holster


Also this gun has -1 AP not 0. Heavy pistol. Also also as others have said, yup it is that deadly. Best advice, try not to get shot.
Daylen
and the way to challenge players is not big nasties. Instead just use enough weak baddies so at least some are guaranteed to get some successful hits on players. Well challenged fights in SR seem more like a game of cat and mouse where the cat has an ingram and the mice/mouse has grenade/rocket launchers. Bad DMs/players seem to think it should be like a boxing match; and its bad because they forget the fighters don't have gloves on and instead have guns which makes death and/or severe injury the outcome for both.
NotoriusBEN
right-o thanks guys. Im running Food Fight 4.0 (with custom characters), and everyone's help plus this quick module is helping me shake out all the nuances. Much appreciated
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 17 2010, 02:05 AM) *
A few things missed here;
You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.
That is wrong.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 150')
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.

In the above example it is:
(AGI 11 + Pistols 6)/2=17/2 So you could go for 9 dice on one attack and 8 on the other. Any other split is possible as well.
So the attacks each Simple Action are:
Attack 1: 9 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 11
Attack 2: 8 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 10

*note that if the character is shooting two weapons simultaneously, uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other as well. So just from that each roll in the second simple action gets another -2.


Multi-Strike only applies if the character attacks more than one opponent with a melee attack.

Under ideal conditions this does not make much of a difference, but wait till you rack up on negative modifiers.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 16 2010, 08:39 PM) *
That is wrong.
QUOTE (SR4A p.150)

Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers.

In the above example it is:
(AGI 11 + Pistols 6)/2=17/2 So you could go for 9 dice on one attack and 8 on the other. Any other split is possible as well.
So the attacks each Simple Action are:
Attack 1: 9 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 11
Attack 2: 8 + Specialization 2 + Gun Fu in Melee 1 + Point Blank 2 - Attacker in Melee 3 - applicable Recoil* - Vision Penalties - Wound Penalties = 10

*note that if the character is shooting two weapons simultaneously, uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other as well. So just from that each roll in the second simple action gets another -2.


Multi-Strike only applies if the character attacks more than one opponent with a melee attack.

Under ideal conditions this does not make much of a difference, but wait till you rack up on negative modifiers.



Missed the note about applying modifiers after splitting the DP.

Though I always thought that specialization was an increase to the skill not a modifier.

Also checked it, and multi-strike applies when attacking multiple opponents, or using multiple weapons (and no mention of melee only), however it can only be applied to one pool, not both.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 17 2010, 06:52 AM) *
Though I always thought that specialization was an increase to the skill not a modifier.
But it isn't:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 121')
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.


QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 17 2010, 06:52 AM) *
Also checked it, and multi-strike applies when attacking multiple opponents, or using multiple weapons (and no mention of melee only), however it can only be applied to one pool, not both.
Let's look at the relevant passage:
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 160')
Apply a +1 dice pool modifier to the total dice pool (not the split dice pools) whenever the character attacks more than one opponent in the same action (see Multiple Targets, p. 148, SR4) or attacks with two melee weapons at once (see p. 163).
The page reference p. 148, SR4 only concerns itself with melee combat and the two weapons explicitly have to be melee weapons.
Draco18s
I'd also like to point out that your examples are edge cases:

A sniper engaging a target at long range wins. No dice needed.

As for an Elf with 11+ Agility requires hard-maxing the stat and getting extremely expensive bioware PLUS buying Pistols up to 6. No other skill can be raised above 4 at chargen. And then engaged in melee for no apparent reason (seriously, you took a quality to get +1 back for being in melee when you could have stepped back five feet and had the same dice pool).

-3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) = +0. Congrats. The benefit? The other guy gets a -2 to his dodge and a -3 for shooting back. But good luck actually closing the distance.

QUOTE
You total the dice pool before halving it; 11 AGI + 8 skill - 3 firing in melee +1 Gun-Fu in melee + 1 Multi-Strike + 2 Point Blank = 20; halved for 10 dice base per attack.


This is also wrong also, I believe. 11 Agl + 6 skill -> 17 dice (split). Leaves 8 and 9 dice plus mods (dice modifiers are after the split):
9 +2 (spec) -3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) +1 (multistrike) = 13
8 +2 (spec) -3 (melee) +1 (gun-fu) +2 (point blank) +1 (multistrike) = 12

And if you want to get crazy, add the Synthcardium, or whatever it is that grants a bonus to physical active skills and a R4 tacnet. That's +7 dice to each split pool (there's a character that does it in a game I'm in, he's new, so its ok that the GM built him a raging death machine on crack).
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 16 2010, 11:02 PM) *
But it isn't:


Everything else is specifically stated to be a modifier (as well as being listed in the big lists of modifiers), specializations are left a bit ambiguous.

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 16 2010, 11:02 PM) *
Let's look at the relevant passage:
The page reference p. 148, SR4 only concerns itself with melee combat and the two weapons explicitly have to be melee weapons.


Okay, yeah. I has the dum on that one. twirl.gif
Man-of-many-Chars
Hi!

Though I wouldn't put my hands in flames for this:
First off, YES, it is deadly if done evil.

BUT: I think in the first example at least recoil was not done right. As already mentioned either gv or suppressor, and I don't think it was enough recoil compensation. I am reading the german version at the time, and there is 2 for the first burst and 3 for the second. Next, visibility modifiers are great. Distance and cover make the rest up.

And if he lived to soak a second burst you rolled quite impressive wink.gif

As already mentioned the splitting of the dice pool was done incorrectly. If I remember correctly the pool has to be split. The pool consists of attribute and skill.
But that is already explained above.

Hope I could help.

Man-of-many-Char
-----------------------
Player since 2.01D
Proud owner of SR4ALE 1188
Adarael
On the flip side of the coin, I ran a game where a dude with a Agility 4, Heavy Weapons 4, and a smartlinked HMG (what is that, 7p? 8p?) suffering no recoil fired for three full passes at a charging troll Physad, and did precisely 2 boxes of damage to him, because the troll was a huge damage sponge.

So, yes. Often deadly. Sometimes, not so much, especially if your PCs invest in a shitton of armor.
Dakka Dakka
A pool of 10 isn't that great. A recoilless HMG with the right ammo (SnS) and a pool of 17+ should take down the troll fairly faster.
Whipstitch
Dicepools are a funny thing. Sure, 10 isn't that great but it is competent whereas 17+ is heading into "Man, are you an Adept or just the best that ever lived?" territory. Particularly considering that usually people take Heavy Weapons as more of a "rainy day" skill for shooting airburst grenades or for those times when your trusty concealed predator won't do the job. You know, like when a troll physad is charging you and turns out to be a huge damage sponge.

And actually, if you want to use stick and shock, what's the point in using an HMG? Might as well just get yourself a TMP in that case and save yourself some headaches the next time you get pulled over.
Dakka Dakka
If you load up on SnS you can do that with any FA-capable handgun. No extra skill needed. Does anyone actually use holdouts?
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 17 2010, 12:22 AM) *
And if you want to get crazy, add the Synthcardium, or whatever it is that grants a bonus to physical active skills and a R4 tacnet. That's +7 dice to each split pool (there's a character that does it in a game I'm in, he's new, so its ok that the GM built him a raging death machine on crack).



Actually, Synthacardium adds dice to Athletic tests and Enhanced Articulation add one die to tests involving Physical skills linked to Physical attributes. The capital "P' on Physical skills is important and there for a reason; it means it adds dice to tests to the skills in the Physical category, like the Athletics group and the parts of the Stealth group that don't use Intuition. It doesn't add dice to any of the Combat skills anymore, which is why it is still good but no longer called Enhanced Artwinkulation like some people did back in its glory days in earlier editions.


QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 02:18 AM) *
If you load up on SnS you can do that with any FA-capable handgun. No extra skill needed. Does anyone actually use holdouts?



Yes. You can tweak holdouts to be at least semi-auto easily enough, and the Morrissey Élan is semi-auto by default and undetectable by MAD scanners, making it perhaps the best friend of any Face-on-the-go when loaded with SnS-- toss in a chameleon coating and the nasty li'l thing is literally easier to hide than a standard RFID tag. After all, if you're using stick and shock it actually hits just as hard as a Predator or even a sniper rifle for that matter. That's why I made the offhand comment that bothering to continue using an unwieldy HMG with stick and shock would be a rather odd choice. You'd really get nothing but ammo capacity and range out of the deal. HMGs are what you use when you feel like perforating some poor slot with a hail of APDS just to make sure they stay dead. They're too unwieldy and horribly, horribly illegal to be worth using for anything else. I guess you could use HMGs all the time if you really, really wanted to, but at that point you're likely playing a different flavor of Shadowrun than my group does.
Octopiii
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 16 2010, 10:22 PM) *
And then engaged in melee for no apparent reason (seriously, you took a quality to get +1 back for being in melee when you could have stepped back five feet and had the same dice pool).


Actually, leaving melee combat prompts an intercept attack. So, gun bunny would have gotten smacked again, and then the melee expert would do it again on the next pass with a charge attack, which gives them +2 for free. So yes, the quality is useful.
The Jopp
Hmm, a small clarification about specialisation.

Attribute: X
Skill: Y
Specialization: +Z
Modifier: M

Dicepool Calculation becomes
X+Y+M+Z

Dual Wield:
(X+Y+M)/2 +2

Dual wield dicepool are always at a minimum of 3 with a specialization since you always round the dicepool up to the nearest number.
Adarael
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 12:11 AM) *
A pool of 10 isn't that great. A recoilless HMG with the right ammo (SnS) and a pool of 17+ should take down the troll fairly faster.


Let me ask you two simple questions, based purely on RPG versimilitude:

1) Why would a crazy highwayman with minimal cyber have a diepool of 17+? That's black ops turf, not some ganger in Azerbaijan.
2) What kind of jackass loads Stick and Shock into a HMG, and where did he get the money to make that a wise choice? These were guys sticking up vehicles to make ends meet - again, in backwater Azerbaijan.

In either case, it wouldn't have made THAT much difference, anyway. He'd have been soaking with 13 dice instead of 16 dice before Body was factored in, since I believe he had Nonconductive 6 on his armor anyhow. 12 ballistic, worn, + 4 Mystic armor, for a total of 16, vs 10 Impact + 4 Mystic Armor + 1 Troll Dermal = 14 (halved to 7) + 6 Nonconductive.

Trust me, when I want to pull out all the stops, I know how to tweak the game to *make* it lethal, but it kind of has to make sense for me to do so. A random ganger or punk isn't gonna be rolling 20 dice, have a rating 4 tacnet running, with drone backup. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, unless there's a reason to make it lethal.
Dakka Dakka
@The Jopp: This is still wrong.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 60')
The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.

QUOTE ('SR4A p. 121')
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.
To be even more clear, it does not increase the skill. But if that isn't enough:
QUOTE ('SR4A p 60 A Note on Modifiers Sidebar')
Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, uses four distinct types of modifiers: Attribute modifiers, Skill modifiers, threshold modifiers, and dice pool modifiers. Attribute and Skill modifiers affect the character’s relevant stats directly, resulting in augmented Attribute Ratings and modified Skill Ratings respectively (see Attribute Ratings, p. 68, and Skill Ratings, p. 68). Threshold modifiers are situational modifiers that increase or decrease the thresholds of unopposed Success Tests and Extended Tests (see Thresholds, p. 63). Finally, dice pool modifiers are the most common type of modifiers; they represent dice pool increases and reductions from situational modifiers, the effects of augmentations, powers, spells, and from
injuries, qualities, and various other sources (see Dice Pool Modifiers). These add and subtract from the dice pools but do not modify the basic Skills and Attributes in use. The type of modifier in question is noted in the description of each modifier. Should there be any doubt, assume the modifier is a dice pool modifier.

QUOTE ('SR4A p. 150')
Split the pool before applying modifiers.


@Adarael: 1) You did not mention the type of setting.
2) If the gameworld knows that SnS is effective against most targets, as the rules say, a lot of people will use this kind of ammo. That it is less than lethal may also be a plus point.
You did not specify that the troll was wearing non-conductive armor. In that case APDS should also work well enough.
I agree with you that a Halloweener should not have a DP of 17+, but you didn't say who was who and if this encounter should have been a challenge.
toturi
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 04:25 PM) *
@Adarael: 1) You did not mention the type of setting.
2) If the gameworld knows that SnS is effective against most targets, as the rules say, a lot of people will use this kind of ammo. That it is less than lethal may also be a plus point.

The game world may know that SnS is effective against most targets. A lot of people may use this kind of ammo, but a whole lot more people may not, if it is less common or it is more expensive.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (toturi @ May 17 2010, 10:30 AM) *
The game world may know that SnS is effective against most targets. A lot of people may use this kind of ammo, but a whole lot more people may not, if it is less common or it is more expensive.
True, but calling anyone who does use SnS a jackass is inappropriate.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 08:25 AM) *
@The Jopp: This is still wrong.


Not by *my* interpretation of the rules grinbig.gif

Since it says that specialization applies to every *test* means (to me) that after all calculations are done and you roll the *test* you add the +2 dice for "the test" which is the actual dice rolling.

Still, the rules are not clear cut but that is my interpretation of how I think it should be so that dual wield is even useful.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 02:25 AM) *
..Quote from the sidebar on p. 60 in SR4A..


That's basically what I'm missing from the RAW perspective (limited to SR4).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 17 2010, 02:26 AM) *
Actually, leaving melee combat prompts an intercept attack. So, gun bunny would have gotten smacked again, and then the melee expert would do it again on the next pass with a charge attack, which gives them +2 for free. So yes, the quality is useful.


What about the other half of my sentence about getting into melee in the first place? Because that's the hard part.

QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2010, 02:26 AM) *
Actually, Synthacardium adds dice to Athletic tests and Enhanced Articulation add one die to tests involving Physical skills linked to Physical attributes.


Gotcha.
Not going to change for our current game, the character might be twinked, but he actually gets a fairly low share of the kills. The character might be a bag of bricks, but even a brick comes in handy outside of combat.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 17 2010, 03:35 PM) *
What about the other half of my sentence about getting into melee in the first place? Because that's the hard part.
Hmm, you can do something with decent stealth, ruthenium-polymer suits and hydraulic-jacks or Great Leap.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 09:43 AM) *
Hmm, you can do something with decent stealth, ruthenium-polymer suits and hydraulic-jacks or Great Leap.


If your first attack is from stealth the target should pretty much be dead, regardless of if its in melee range or not. That whole "can't dodge" thing combined with the "called shot for damage" thing.

As for the other two: if you're going to jump into melee, you might as well use a melee weapon. You get +0 to your attacks (instead of -3+2(+1 Martial arts) -> +0) and do about as much damage.
Dakka Dakka
Oh you were talking about jumping into melee to shoot the opponent. I just thought about getting into melee range to well melee.

Using firearms in melee IMHO is best for people with high firearms skill to use that skill as much as possible, they should not however provoke or seek out this situation. A skilled HtH fighter may well deprive them of their weapons or just beat/hack them to a pulp before they can shoot.

IMHO investing in an Improved Range Finder is better than investing in Martial Arts, with the exception of making Take Aim a Free Action possibly.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 11:20 AM) *
Using firearms in melee IMHO is best for people with high firearms skill to use that skill as much as possible, they should not however provoke or seek out this situation.


Exactly, agreed. However the OP's second example was a character specifically built to shoot melee opponents (Maxed Agility, Maxed Pistols skill, and the Firefight advantage).
Karoline
QUOTE (Adarael @ May 17 2010, 01:36 AM) *
On the flip side of the coin, I ran a game where a dude with a Agility 4, Heavy Weapons 4, and a smartlinked HMG (what is that, 7p? 8p?) suffering no recoil fired for three full passes at a charging troll Physad, and did precisely 2 boxes of damage to him, because the troll was a huge damage sponge.

So, yes. Often deadly. Sometimes, not so much, especially if your PCs invest in a shitton of armor.

That's one of the biggest damage sponges I've ever heard of.

8P base damage + net hits (at least 1) +9 from full auto = 18 damage, most likely stun because 9 armor isn't that hard to manage. But still, assuming average hits on the soak the troll would require a body+armor of 54 to null it out. Now, a body of 10 is fairly easy for a troll, and maybe a dozen or so points of armor, and maybe a few other bonuses just for the fun of it to make it up to 30. That is still only 10 hits on average, which means 8 damage taken. A second one of those and the troll goes down. I've only seen two builds that I can think of off hand which could actually soak a full auto burst from an HMG, one involves a rigger in a rigging cocoon inside of a PMV, and the other involves lots of cyberlimbs with maxed armor and military armor.

P.S. Yes, playing with guns is indeed deadly.
Teulisch
SnS ammo is a sub-par choice for some guns with high power. you could do more damage witch capsule rounds- its a gel round with an added chemical punch. great for shooting at things with a known allergy (insecticide for bug spirits), narcojet is a good choice in most cases, fairly available at 12R, and the same cost as SnS rounds.

as for damage sponges, its fairly easy to get 30 soak dice with 8 body. thats an average of 10 soak, with a large variable as to actual soak. you never know, you could crit glitch on soak and die horribly because someone hit you with a longshot.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 17 2010, 04:29 PM) *
That's one of the biggest damage sponges I've ever heard of.

8P base damage + net hits (at least 1) +9 from full auto = 18 damage, most likely stun because 9 armor isn't that hard to manage. But still, assuming average hits on the soak the troll would require a body+armor of 54 to null it out. Now, a body of 10 is fairly easy for a troll, and maybe a dozen or so points of armor, and maybe a few other bonuses just for the fun of it to make it up to 30. That is still only 10 hits on average, which means 8 damage taken. A second one of those and the troll goes down. I've only seen two builds that I can think of off hand which could actually soak a full auto burst from an HMG, one involves a rigger in a rigging cocoon inside of a PMV, and the other involves lots of cyberlimbs with maxed armor and military armor.

P.S. Yes, playing with guns is indeed deadly.


Hmm...

Body: 10
Mystic Armor: 6
Berserk adept power: Body +1
Improved Physical Attribute 2

Lets go with starting availability armor.
Camouflage Suit (8/6)
Full Body Armor Helmet (+2/+2)
Full Securetech PP Armor (+2/+6)
Gel Packs (+1/+1)
Ballistic Shield (+6/+4)

Body 13
Mystic Armor +6
Full Armor Package +19 (Max 20 as of BodyX2)

Total Soak Pool: 38

We could possibly add a ballistic cloth scarf from the moonsilver line for a total pool of 39 but then it just becomes silly.




Adarael
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 17 2010, 07:29 AM) *
That's one of the biggest damage sponges I've ever heard of.

8P base damage + net hits (at least 1) +9 from full auto = 18 damage, most likely stun because 9 armor isn't that hard to manage. But still, assuming average hits on the soak the troll would require a body+armor of 54 to null it out. Now, a body of 10 is fairly easy for a troll, and maybe a dozen or so points of armor, and maybe a few other bonuses just for the fun of it to make it up to 30. That is still only 10 hits on average, which means 8 damage taken. A second one of those and the troll goes down. I've only seen two builds that I can think of off hand which could actually soak a full auto burst from an HMG, one involves a rigger in a rigging cocoon inside of a PMV, and the other involves lots of cyberlimbs with maxed armor and military armor.

P.S. Yes, playing with guns is indeed deadly.


Yeah. I don't recall the full diepool amount, but it was... pretty intense. I actually had the HMG incident occur because it made sense for what was going on in the game, and I wanted to see how much soaking he could do. He could do a whole lot. I believe there was the Body Boost power involved, maybe? And edge. He had a lot of edge, and wasn't shy about using it to soak.

It was much more amusing after he got hit with Control Thoughts and he was his team's problem.
Dakka Dakka
Rock Paper Scissors
Rand
QUOTE (NotoriusBEN @ May 16 2010, 06:39 PM) *
Ok, I am GM'ing 4th Edition for a group for the 1st time and I just want to ask some of the regulars around here and make sure my math is correct.


SR is one of 2 games that I have dubbed : Deadlier than Real Life. The other one is Rolemaster.

This is why I am trying to encourage the use of active defenses. Just sort of hard to do in the current system.
Karoline
QUOTE (Adarael @ May 17 2010, 12:02 PM) *
Yeah. I don't recall the full diepool amount, but it was... pretty intense. I actually had the HMG incident occur because it made sense for what was going on in the game, and I wanted to see how much soaking he could do. He could do a whole lot. I believe there was the Body Boost power involved, maybe? And edge. He had a lot of edge, and wasn't shy about using it to soak.

It was much more amusing after he got hit with Control Thoughts and he was his team's problem.


Well, yeah, if he had an edge pool of about 5 or so... you're still looking at maybe 40ish dice with exploding sixes bringing you up to something like 15-16 hits. That'll get it down to only 3 or so boxes of stun damage, throw on a trauma damper to drop it to 2. Even so, that's with a ton of armor and adept abilities all focused on soaking damage and so on.

Of course that is why SnS rounds are so beloved. They only do 6 damage as opposed to 8, but they drop armor by half, which in this example would mean a loss of roughly 15+ points of armor.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 17 2010, 03:33 AM) *
True, but calling anyone who does use SnS a jackass is inappropriate.


Nah, they were calling anyone who uses SnS in a HMG a jackass. It's just a goofy thing to do. It negates the damage code and armor penetration advantages of an HMG and a Full Burst is basically of the stuff is akin to throwing 80 nuyen out the window. Basically, it's the kind of thing you do if you have a serious Rambo complex or simply don't know how to use any other kind of firearm, which I guess actually is pretty possible given SR4's wacky skill point costs.
MindandPen
QUOTE (Rand @ May 17 2010, 01:16 PM) *
SR is one of 2 games that I have dubbed : Deadlier than Real Life.


I'm not to sure about that. Real Life, when dealing with trained shooters, is very deadly.

If you look at the "Real Life" analog of some of the SR weapons, look at the skill levels of trained soldiers, for example, and then look at actual battlefield carnage, it is deadly.

-M&P
Adarael
I also thought it was ridiculous, simply because of the basic nature of the exchange:

OP: "Hey, is this game deadly?"
Most Everybody: "Yeah, often."
Me: "Yeah, sometimes it goes the other way, though."
Dakka: "Well, that's because you weren't making a murder machine designed to kill your players."

Yeah, I wasn't. My point wasn't that I had a hard time killing players. I don't. I was simply pointing out that players CAN make damage sponges; explaining that I'm somehow 'doing it wrong' because I wasn't optimizing opposition to kill them doesn't matter. It struck me as sort of like me saying "Some people can juggle chainsaws," and Dakka saying, "Well, that's because they're not juggling chainsaws while on fire, covered in bees!" To which I kinda felt like saying, "Yeah, and?"

It also ties in to my belief that if something is clearly the One Best Option, everyone will be (and should be) prepared for the One Best Option, and therefore should probably have Nonconductive 6 on all their armor. Like why I house-ruled that Capsule Rounds don't have the Gel Round bonus, as well as chemicals. At least capsule rounds are pretty expensive, once you factor in what's inside 'em.
Stahlseele
At least, usually in shadowrun, your character won't die while still in character creation most of the time . .
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 17 2010, 03:42 PM) *
At least, usually in shadowrun, your character won't die while still in character creation most of the time . .


Much love to Traveller for that. <3
(Though to be completely honest, it's really hard to louse that up that badly)
Stahlseele
Have you tried the new Battletech - A Time Of War RPG System yet?
It's not as nice as killing your character, it usually leaves your character with missing body parts.
Eyes, Ears, Arms, Legs, Hands, Feet . .
Dumori
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 17 2010, 01:05 AM) *
First off, the gun breaks the rules. It has 8 points of mods (six is the limit), the silencer cannot be installed on a weapon that has BF or FA modes (has to be a suppressor), and the silencer/suppressor include the thermal suppressor, making the two mods incompatible. Additionally, you cannot use gas vent recoil reduction and sound suppression on the same attack (switching is a standard action normally, or a free action with a smartlinked weapon).

Half true there. 6 is a soft limit other than that you right. Going over 6 slots is a GM ruling that can include added penalties from regular maintainence to DP penalties to use.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 17 2010, 05:11 PM) *
Have you tried the new Battletech - A Time Of War RPG System yet?
It's not as nice as killing your character, it usually leaves your character with missing body parts.
Eyes, Ears, Arms, Legs, Hands, Feet . .


Traveller can do the same, though is very unlikely. You have to get injured (only some careers can do that, and doing so requires that you "fail" out of your career anyway) then you have to roll poorly to get the "roll on the injury table" and then still roll low. Random life event can do it too, though it still requires rolling something like a 3 on 2d6 (or a little more common than having an unusual event*).

*Abducted by aliens, finding artifacts, or becoming psychic.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012