Why IPs?, ...and no jokes about my soycaf addiction, please. Options

[MikeKozar]

I was watching Iron Man 2 last night, and really enjoyed the scene where the secret agent KOs a dozen security guards. However, it did remind me of one of the issues I have with Shadowrun - the IP system.

The basic premise is fine - faster things get to go more often then slower things. The implementation leaves something to be desired, however - during IP 1, everybody gets a turn to make one action. After everybody has had a turn, the faster people go again.

This is easy to illustrate in a cinematic fashion. Let's look at gunfighters - in a one-on-one fight, where a hit is lethal and neither is expected to miss, the gunfighter who 'wins initiative' and is quicker on the draw will walk away.

Now, consider that one hero gunfighter is up against two slower enemy gunfighters, and the hero is fast enough to go twice. In an IP system, the hero will kill one enemy, who won't get a turn, and then the second enemy will kill the hero. The first gunfighter won't survive to use his second IP.

Conversely, if we imagine a system where people with multiple IPs instead get multiple actions on their initiative order, the quicker gunfighter will win initiative and then fire twice, and walk away alive.

We could even replicate this 'faster first' using the Shadowrun's IP system if we flipped the order - IP 3, IP 2, then IP 1. This maintains some of the advantages of simultanious IPs while increasing the power level of the wired reflexes up to a more cinematic level.

That greater power level is the only argument I can imagine against 'fastest first' instead of 'fastest again'. It makes sams who traded their soul for Wired-3 incredibly lethal killing machines, and they will tear through half of a go-gang before the unaugmented bastards even draw their guns.

My question is, is that wrong?

[Whipstitch]

Matter of opinion. If you want people without passes to be even more vulnerable than they already are, go right ahead.

[Summerstorm]

That is how it should be, yes. And it was in 2nd edition and many people (including my old group) played 3rd with that too. I prefer it that way. Also i prefer an initiative score and -10 after you had your actions to the fixed IP in 4th.

It was nice having some unaugmented, but insanely trained man going two times without tricks or "using edge" or some bullcrap just 6 agi, 6 int = 6 rea+1W6= 12 if he had luck with the die.

[Mesh]

There's nothing stopping the gunslinger in your example from splitting his dice pool and shooting both opponents before they can react or from hitting them both with a full auto spread either.

Mesh

[Mantis]

Yea that's the way we did it too in the old days. This system is balanced more to giving everyone a turn. Sure it seems a little strange but the old way meant just about everyone had to have some sort of reflex enhancer to last more than a second or two in a fight. It's always a balancing act between making the fast guys fast and actually letting everyone else try to do something rather than just die.
What you propose is similar to the SR2/3 initiative system. The only problem with doing it that way is the unaugmented rarely get to do anything. If you are cool with that, go to it. It does favour cinematic action but not balance so much.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, keep in mind that even in SR4 having enough passes to continue to shooting while maintaining Full Defense actions is already pretty vital.

[Nixda]

Well, everyone has his opinion on the old times. Personally, i like the change for balance reasons.

Life for the unaugmented was very sad in 2nd where a guy could come walking around a corner, kill half their group, and walk back around the corner before even one of them could act.

[Daylen]

the old way made more sense, but because of how easy it was (expensive but easy) to get multiple passes it was just an arms race to see who could get the most passes. If everyone has it it doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it they don't matter. That made it so there were only three generic builds, one is the guy who does not get in combat and never has to roll init, the other two are the quick and the dead.

[Ol' Scratch]

A mechanic I'm considering using mixes things up a bit and makes rolling initiative fast and easy. A few terms are going to be redefined, but I'm sure you'll be able to understand it in context. Ideally I'll be changing the terms around completely (I really don't like calling them Passes, for instance), but you should still get the gist of it anyway.

It basically works like this: At the start of each Combat Turn, everyone rolls a number of dice equal to their Initiative Passes, and the result tells you exactly which phase in which you get to perform. For example, if you have 3 IPs, you'd roll 3d6. That might give you 1 5 and 5. That means you get to perform twice on phase 5 and once on phase 1. Your opponent might have an IP of 4, and might get 3 3 3 6, meaning he performs once on phase 6 and three times on phase 3.

If you feel that 6 phases isn't enough, using dice with more sides on it or allowing for exploding 6's (where a 6 = 5+reroll) is certainly a possibility, too. Each character's Initiative score helps resolve ties, so it doesn't really matter in the end.

Anyway, after that, the GM starts counting down the phases starting from the highest result to the lowest. When its your turn to perform, you get the normal array of actions (one Free and either two Simple or one Complex Action) for each die that came up for that phase. If multiple characters are able to perform on a specific phase, the order of their performances is determined by their Initiative score. If multiple characters are performing on the same phase, and one character has more than one performance available, it's resolved as per the standard rules (the faster character takes one set of actions, then the next fastest gets to take theirs, and once everyone has gone the character(s) with more than one performance can go again). Edge can be used to reroll all or some of your dice, but cannot be used to add extra dice to the roll.

Example:
[ Spoiler ]
In a sample skirmish, Jane, Sam, and Penny face off against one another.

Jane has an Initiative of 11 and 3 Passes.
Sam has an Initiative of 7 and 2 Passes.
Penny has an Initiative of 14 and 4 Passes.

During the first combat turn, they all roll for initiative. Jane rolls 3d6 and gets 1 2 2. Sam rolls 2d6 and gets 2 6. Penny rolls 4d6 and gets 1 2 4 5. They set their dice off to the side (so that they don't have to bother writing anything down, saving that much more time), and the GM starts calling out the phase. They begin with Phase 6. Since Sam was the only one to roll a 6, he goes first. Once he's resolved his action, the GM calls out for Phase 5. Now it's Penny's turn to go since she rolled a 5. Phase 4 comes up next and Penny gets to go again. Then comes Phase 3, but no one rolled a 3 so it gets skipped.

Phase 2 is where things get a little more complicated. All three of them rolled one or more 2's, so they have to rely on their Initiative scores to determine who goes first. Penny is the fastest with an Initiative of 14, so she performs first. Jane gets to go next; she rolled two 2's, but only gets to perform once since multiple people are performing this phase. When she's done, it's Sam's turn since he has the lowest Initiative. And when he finishes, Jane gets to make her second performance for the phase thanks to that second 2 she rolled.

Finally, Phase 1 rolls around. Only Jane and Penny rolled a 1, so they rely on their Initiative scores once again. Penny performs first, followed by Jane.

Everyone's has used up their performances this turn, so it's time to roll again.

And... that's really all there is to it. It sounds convoluted thanks to my inability to express myself well on message forums, but it's really fast and surprisingly intuitive in practice. The thing that I like most about it is that it adds some genuine chaos to combat, and de-emphasizes the importance of having augmentations that boost your initiative. It's still a really nice perk to have, but you're not left twiddling your thumbs each and every combat turn if you don't have them, either.

[Karoline]

the old way made more sense, but because of how easy it was (expensive but easy) to get multiple passes it was just an arms race to see who could get the most passes. If everyone has it it doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it they don't matter.

Kind of like the emotitoy. If it is in the game, then everyone will have it and simply have to add 600 nuyen to their 'must have' item list and nothing is really gained except a reduction in glitches. And of course if someone forgets to buy it, they are instantly outclassed in social situations by a virtual novice. If IPs are required to even have a chance to survive a battle, then everyone will have to get them, and everyone will have them, and nothing will have been gained. Instead with the system as it is, the IPs are an advantage but not an 'I win' button, so some people get them and have the advantage, and some people don't.

[Daylen]

and would the passes be determined by ones Panache?

[Glyph]

Now, consider that one hero gunfighter is up against two slower enemy gunfighters, and the hero is fast enough to go twice. In an IP system, the hero will kill one enemy, who won't get a turn, and then the second enemy will kill the hero. The first gunfighter won't survive to use his second IP.

Initiative was changed from 2nd Edition both for balance reasons, and because before the change, lower-initiative builds often couldn't go at all before the fast guy killed everything, making combat kind of tedious for the non-speed sammies.

But remember that SR4 also has full defense as an interrupt action, which helps to make multiple passes more meaningful again. In your example above, the gunfighter could use his second IP to dodge. If the gunfighter had three IPs, he could do that, and then shoot the second enemy on his third IP.

[Synner]

Curiously this was an optional rule that I had slated for the now-increasingly unlikely Mr. Johnson's Companion . Simply invert the order of the default IP initiative system - so that you start at IP4 with only people possessing 4 IPs getting to act, then IP3 when only people with 3IPs get to go, then IP2, and finally IP1 when everyone with a single IP gets to act - produces results similar to the pre-SR3 initiative system where wired/boosted combatants get to act multiple times before unaugmented types plus it requires only a minimal amount of tweaking.

[Snow_Fox]

We play that way, we subscribe to the idea that the guy with wired reflexes, or whatever, will be just so much faster that the ordinary joe that he'll have his weapon out and in action long before the other guy. It makes the wired guy scary, I mean otherwise the joker whose just meat might, with a lucky shot, take out the guy with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 500K in cyber based on dumb luck.

[Karoline]

Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:

CODE

4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP

So basically someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go before the guy with 4IP goes again or anyone else goes for the first time. Then when the 4IP goes a second time, the 2IP also goes, with who goes first based off init like normal, and so on. That way IPs are a way to ensure going first, and get can get you 2 passes before someone with 2 fewer IPs than you can go at all, without leaving lower IP people completely defenseless, since they won't have to wait for the high IP people to completely finish the battle before they can do anything.

Bit more complicated I suppose, but I think it would produce good results which are a mix between speedy getting to act faster, and not leaving normal humans totally out of the picture.

[Omenowl]

So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?

[Llewelyn]

Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:

CODE

4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP

Bit more complicated I suppose, but I think it would produce good results which are a mix between speedy getting to act faster, and not leaving normal humans totally out of the picture.

I don't think it would be too complicated. You would just have 8 divisions of a combat turn and if everyone wrote down when their divisions happened you could move from 1 to 8 in about the same time as you do now.

[Llewelyn]

So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?

You would get it in the next division of the combat turn. So a character with 4 IPs that uses an edge to get another IP right off in division 1 would just get another action in the division 2 (When normally only the 3 IP people would be going). Division 8 is only there for those IP 4 that want to spend an edge. If you spend an edge to go first in the Turn then you go in division 1.

IP 4 = 1,3,5,7
IP 3 = 2,4,6
IP 2 = 3,5
IP 1 = 4

[Karoline]

So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?

Extra pass from edge would work just like you had one higher IP than you do, I would guess the same for adrenaline surge though I don't remember the rules off hand.

The real question is how to handle edge to win init. Does it bypass the pyramid entirely, or simply cause you to go first in your column? Personally I would think something like acting as if you had an extra IP and were going first in your column would work well. Gives someone a chance to one up someone with one higher IP, but doesn't let someone with no enhancements beat out the super speedy twitchy trigger.

Edit: Or is there some reason this wouldn't work? Kinda late, and like I said, not something I've done any play testing or anything with, just though it would be a nice balance between giving fast people a chance to react multiple times before a normal person reacts once, and leaving the unenhanced people totally in the dust.

[nemafow]

I love the way Contact simulates 'faster' people and initiative during combat.

For those of you not that interested or lazy:
Bare basics, each NPC/character has a total number of 'action points' and they deduct 'action points' depending on the action they perform, TILL their total 'action points' is lower than any other NPC/character, then the npc/character goes till they no longer the highest. its a pain for the GM, but I have always liked it...


http://www.openkore.de/

[Karoline]

I love the way Contact simulates 'faster' people and initiative during combat.

For those of you not that interested or lazy:
Bare basics, each NPC/character has a total number of 'action points' and they deduct 'action points' depending on the action they perform, TILL their total 'action points' is lower than any other NPC/character, then the npc/character goes till they no longer the highest. its a pain for the GM, but I have always liked it...


http://www.openkore.de/

Sounds cool, and I was just thinking that if you wanted to get really complex you could dole out a certain number of actions at a time. Like someone with 3IPs would get their full turn and someone with 1IP would get a simple action, then when the 3IP person got their second full turn, the 1IP person would get another simple action (which they could then turn into a complex action if they'd saved up the first simple action) and then the 3rd full turn and free action would be given out. It seems to simulate how things would work out about as realistically as you can manage, but would lead to serious headaches in bookkeeping.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:

CODE

4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP

My GM and I just read this and bot really like it. Looks like we'll be adopting this for our games, thanks for the idea!

[Man-of-many-Char...]

Gee, I didn't expect this coming (truly!).

My problem with second was that characters with low initiative (mages without sustained spells, faces, etc.) didn't get to act until most enemies were dead. And the decision if somenone got to go twice or three times was sometimes quite lucky.

Then third came along and you didn't have to be uberfast to get some part of the action except covering and waiting.

Me, personally, I enjoy the system in fourth! Everyone gets to do something. I think for balancing and for enjoyment in the group that fourth edition works fine for me.

Man-of-many-Char
----------------------
Playing since 2.01D
Proud owner of SR4ALE 1188

[Zormal]

Changing the order of IPs to 3/1/2/4 also works pretty well, although it makes 3 IPs highly desirable.

[Professor Evil O...]

Splitting things into IPs and initiative is kinda odd and, yes the SR1/2 system was more "real." It certainly favors the augmented (ie PCs). It also pretty much required initiative augmentation. It also lead to very bored players who didn't have boosts. If you weren't Mr Initiative you got to sit around and do nothing during combat. On a good day. On a bad day you were killed by an augmented opponent before you had a chance to do anything. Most NPCs were in the bad day dead before I act category.

Let me share how I handled the issue as a GM.

To give slow players something to do, and for encounters with the unaugmented to be remotely dangerous I had to use groups of unaugmented opponents that outnumbered the PCs 3 to 1 or greater. Two sams could easily take down half a dozen guards (armored and in cover) before they could shoot back. Twice that if armed with decent automatics or against targets in the open. It wasn't helping things that your combat pool refreshed every time you acted. Augmented sams were gods in combat. This wouldn't be near as much a problem in SR4 as those sams just can't kill things as fast as they used to.

SR3 and later isn't necessarily better it's just different and I run things differently. SR3 and later meant I didn't need to throw a dozen targets at the PCs every encounter. No more multiple actions before the opposition can react. Combat pool was once a round too. Being fast still let you act first and you still had several initiative passes. The sams killed just as many goons, just now the goons could shoot back before they all went down. Combat was a lot more dangerous than it used to be and everybody at the table usually got to act once.

Which is better? Well that depends on your group and your taste.