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MikeKozar
I was watching Iron Man 2 last night, and really enjoyed the scene where the secret agent KOs a dozen security guards. However, it did remind me of one of the issues I have with Shadowrun - the IP system.

The basic premise is fine - faster things get to go more often then slower things. The implementation leaves something to be desired, however - during IP 1, everybody gets a turn to make one action. After everybody has had a turn, the faster people go again.

This is easy to illustrate in a cinematic fashion. Let's look at gunfighters - in a one-on-one fight, where a hit is lethal and neither is expected to miss, the gunfighter who 'wins initiative' and is quicker on the draw will walk away.

Now, consider that one hero gunfighter is up against two slower enemy gunfighters, and the hero is fast enough to go twice. In an IP system, the hero will kill one enemy, who won't get a turn, and then the second enemy will kill the hero. The first gunfighter won't survive to use his second IP.

Conversely, if we imagine a system where people with multiple IPs instead get multiple actions on their initiative order, the quicker gunfighter will win initiative and then fire twice, and walk away alive.

We could even replicate this 'faster first' using the Shadowrun's IP system if we flipped the order - IP 3, IP 2, then IP 1. This maintains some of the advantages of simultanious IPs while increasing the power level of the wired reflexes up to a more cinematic level.

That greater power level is the only argument I can imagine against 'fastest first' instead of 'fastest again'. It makes sams who traded their soul for Wired-3 incredibly lethal killing machines, and they will tear through half of a go-gang before the unaugmented bastards even draw their guns.

My question is, is that wrong?
Whipstitch
Matter of opinion. If you want people without passes to be even more vulnerable than they already are, go right ahead.
Summerstorm
That is how it should be, yes. And it was in 2nd edition and many people (including my old group) played 3rd with that too. I prefer it that way. Also i prefer an initiative score and -10 after you had your actions to the fixed IP in 4th.

It was nice having some unaugmented, but insanely trained man going two times without tricks or "using edge" or some bullcrap just 6 agi, 6 int = 6 rea+1W6= 12 if he had luck with the die.

Mesh
There's nothing stopping the gunslinger in your example from splitting his dice pool and shooting both opponents before they can react or from hitting them both with a full auto spread either.

Mesh
Mantis
Yea that's the way we did it too in the old days. This system is balanced more to giving everyone a turn. Sure it seems a little strange but the old way meant just about everyone had to have some sort of reflex enhancer to last more than a second or two in a fight. It's always a balancing act between making the fast guys fast and actually letting everyone else try to do something rather than just die.
What you propose is similar to the SR2/3 initiative system. The only problem with doing it that way is the unaugmented rarely get to do anything. If you are cool with that, go to it. It does favour cinematic action but not balance so much.
Whipstitch
Yeah, keep in mind that even in SR4 having enough passes to continue to shooting while maintaining Full Defense actions is already pretty vital.
Nixda
Well, everyone has his opinion on the old times. Personally, i like the change for balance reasons.

Life for the unaugmented was very sad in 2nd where a guy could come walking around a corner, kill half their group, and walk back around the corner before even one of them could act.
Daylen
the old way made more sense, but because of how easy it was (expensive but easy) to get multiple passes it was just an arms race to see who could get the most passes. If everyone has it it doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it they don't matter. That made it so there were only three generic builds, one is the guy who does not get in combat and never has to roll init, the other two are the quick and the dead.
Ol' Scratch
A mechanic I'm considering using mixes things up a bit and makes rolling initiative fast and easy. A few terms are going to be redefined, but I'm sure you'll be able to understand it in context. Ideally I'll be changing the terms around completely (I really don't like calling them Passes, for instance), but you should still get the gist of it anyway.

It basically works like this: At the start of each Combat Turn, everyone rolls a number of dice equal to their Initiative Passes, and the result tells you exactly which phase in which you get to perform. For example, if you have 3 IPs, you'd roll 3d6. That might give you 1 5 and 5. That means you get to perform twice on phase 5 and once on phase 1. Your opponent might have an IP of 4, and might get 3 3 3 6, meaning he performs once on phase 6 and three times on phase 3.

If you feel that 6 phases isn't enough, using dice with more sides on it or allowing for exploding 6's (where a 6 = 5+reroll) is certainly a possibility, too. Each character's Initiative score helps resolve ties, so it doesn't really matter in the end.

Anyway, after that, the GM starts counting down the phases starting from the highest result to the lowest. When its your turn to perform, you get the normal array of actions (one Free and either two Simple or one Complex Action) for each die that came up for that phase. If multiple characters are able to perform on a specific phase, the order of their performances is determined by their Initiative score. If multiple characters are performing on the same phase, and one character has more than one performance available, it's resolved as per the standard rules (the faster character takes one set of actions, then the next fastest gets to take theirs, and once everyone has gone the character(s) with more than one performance can go again). Edge can be used to reroll all or some of your dice, but cannot be used to add extra dice to the roll.
    Example:
    [ Spoiler ]
And... that's really all there is to it. It sounds convoluted thanks to my inability to express myself well on message forums, but it's really fast and surprisingly intuitive in practice. The thing that I like most about it is that it adds some genuine chaos to combat, and de-emphasizes the importance of having augmentations that boost your initiative. It's still a really nice perk to have, but you're not left twiddling your thumbs each and every combat turn if you don't have them, either.
Karoline
QUOTE (Daylen @ May 16 2010, 08:54 PM) *
the old way made more sense, but because of how easy it was (expensive but easy) to get multiple passes it was just an arms race to see who could get the most passes. If everyone has it it doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it they don't matter.


Kind of like the emotitoy. If it is in the game, then everyone will have it and simply have to add 600 nuyen to their 'must have' item list and nothing is really gained except a reduction in glitches. And of course if someone forgets to buy it, they are instantly outclassed in social situations by a virtual novice. If IPs are required to even have a chance to survive a battle, then everyone will have to get them, and everyone will have them, and nothing will have been gained. Instead with the system as it is, the IPs are an advantage but not an 'I win' button, so some people get them and have the advantage, and some people don't.
Daylen
and would the passes be determined by ones Panache?
Glyph
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ May 16 2010, 05:19 PM) *
Now, consider that one hero gunfighter is up against two slower enemy gunfighters, and the hero is fast enough to go twice. In an IP system, the hero will kill one enemy, who won't get a turn, and then the second enemy will kill the hero. The first gunfighter won't survive to use his second IP.

Initiative was changed from 2nd Edition both for balance reasons, and because before the change, lower-initiative builds often couldn't go at all before the fast guy killed everything, making combat kind of tedious for the non-speed sammies.

But remember that SR4 also has full defense as an interrupt action, which helps to make multiple passes more meaningful again. In your example above, the gunfighter could use his second IP to dodge. If the gunfighter had three IPs, he could do that, and then shoot the second enemy on his third IP.
Synner
Curiously this was an optional rule that I had slated for the now-increasingly unlikely Mr. Johnson's Companion . Simply invert the order of the default IP initiative system - so that you start at IP4 with only people possessing 4 IPs getting to act, then IP3 when only people with 3IPs get to go, then IP2, and finally IP1 when everyone with a single IP gets to act - produces results similar to the pre-SR3 initiative system where wired/boosted combatants get to act multiple times before unaugmented types plus it requires only a minimal amount of tweaking.
Snow_Fox
We play that way, we subscribe to the idea that the guy with wired reflexes, or whatever, will be just so much faster that the ordinary joe that he'll have his weapon out and in action long before the other guy. It makes the wired guy scary, I mean otherwise the joker whose just meat might, with a lucky shot, take out the guy with nuyen.gif 500K in cyber based on dumb luck.
Karoline
Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:
CODE
4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP

So basically someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go before the guy with 4IP goes again or anyone else goes for the first time. Then when the 4IP goes a second time, the 2IP also goes, with who goes first based off init like normal, and so on. That way IPs are a way to ensure going first, and get can get you 2 passes before someone with 2 fewer IPs than you can go at all, without leaving lower IP people completely defenseless, since they won't have to wait for the high IP people to completely finish the battle before they can do anything.

Bit more complicated I suppose, but I think it would produce good results which are a mix between speedy getting to act faster, and not leaving normal humans totally out of the picture.
Omenowl
So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?
Llewelyn
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 16 2010, 09:41 PM) *
Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:
CODE
4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP


Bit more complicated I suppose, but I think it would produce good results which are a mix between speedy getting to act faster, and not leaving normal humans totally out of the picture.


I don't think it would be too complicated. You would just have 8 divisions of a combat turn and if everyone wrote down when their divisions happened you could move from 1 to 8 in about the same time as you do now.
Llewelyn
QUOTE (Omenowl @ May 16 2010, 10:28 PM) *
So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?


You would get it in the next division of the combat turn. So a character with 4 IPs that uses an edge to get another IP right off in division 1 would just get another action in the division 2 (When normally only the 3 IP people would be going). Division 8 is only there for those IP 4 that want to spend an edge. If you spend an edge to go first in the Turn then you go in division 1.

IP 4 = 1,3,5,7
IP 3 = 2,4,6
IP 2 = 3,5
IP 1 = 4
Karoline
QUOTE (Omenowl @ May 16 2010, 10:28 PM) *
So where does Adrenaline surge or Edge fit in? It seems simple, but getting an extra pass using edge with adrenaline surge get you? Do you act before everyone else or does it fit before everyone else? Do you act before 4 or 5Ips with your second IP before or after the 4 or 5IP people?


Extra pass from edge would work just like you had one higher IP than you do, I would guess the same for adrenaline surge though I don't remember the rules off hand.

The real question is how to handle edge to win init. Does it bypass the pyramid entirely, or simply cause you to go first in your column? Personally I would think something like acting as if you had an extra IP and were going first in your column would work well. Gives someone a chance to one up someone with one higher IP, but doesn't let someone with no enhancements beat out the super speedy twitchy trigger.

Edit: Or is there some reason this wouldn't work? Kinda late, and like I said, not something I've done any play testing or anything with, just though it would be a nice balance between giving fast people a chance to react multiple times before a normal person reacts once, and leaving the unenhanced people totally in the dust.
nemafow
I love the way Contact simulates 'faster' people and initiative during combat.

For those of you not that interested or lazy:
Bare basics, each NPC/character has a total number of 'action points' and they deduct 'action points' depending on the action they perform, TILL their total 'action points' is lower than any other NPC/character, then the npc/character goes till they no longer the highest. its a pain for the GM, but I have always liked it...


http://www.openkore.de/
Karoline
QUOTE (nemafow @ May 16 2010, 11:22 PM) *
I love the way Contact simulates 'faster' people and initiative during combat.

For those of you not that interested or lazy:
Bare basics, each NPC/character has a total number of 'action points' and they deduct 'action points' depending on the action they perform, TILL their total 'action points' is lower than any other NPC/character, then the npc/character goes till they no longer the highest. its a pain for the GM, but I have always liked it...


http://www.openkore.de/


Sounds cool, and I was just thinking that if you wanted to get really complex you could dole out a certain number of actions at a time. Like someone with 3IPs would get their full turn and someone with 1IP would get a simple action, then when the 3IP person got their second full turn, the 1IP person would get another simple action (which they could then turn into a complex action if they'd saved up the first simple action) and then the 3rd full turn and free action would be given out. It seems to simulate how things would work out about as realistically as you can manage, but would lead to serious headaches in bookkeeping.
Raven the Trickster
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 16 2010, 08:41 PM) *
Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:
CODE
4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP



My GM and I just read this and bot really like it. Looks like we'll be adopting this for our games, thanks for the idea!
Man-of-many-Chars
Gee, I didn't expect this coming (truly!).

My problem with second was that characters with low initiative (mages without sustained spells, faces, etc.) didn't get to act until most enemies were dead. And the decision if somenone got to go twice or three times was sometimes quite lucky.

Then third came along and you didn't have to be uberfast to get some part of the action except covering and waiting.

Me, personally, I enjoy the system in fourth! Everyone gets to do something. I think for balancing and for enjoyment in the group that fourth edition works fine for me.

Man-of-many-Char
----------------------
Playing since 2.01D
Proud owner of SR4ALE 1188
Zormal
Changing the order of IPs to 3/1/2/4 also works pretty well, although it makes 3 IPs highly desirable.
Professor Evil Overlord
Splitting things into IPs and initiative is kinda odd and, yes the SR1/2 system was more "real." It certainly favors the augmented (ie PCs). It also pretty much required initiative augmentation. It also lead to very bored players who didn't have boosts. If you weren't Mr Initiative you got to sit around and do nothing during combat. On a good day. On a bad day you were killed by an augmented opponent before you had a chance to do anything. Most NPCs were in the bad day dead before I act category.

Let me share how I handled the issue as a GM.

To give slow players something to do, and for encounters with the unaugmented to be remotely dangerous I had to use groups of unaugmented opponents that outnumbered the PCs 3 to 1 or greater. Two sams could easily take down half a dozen guards (armored and in cover) before they could shoot back. Twice that if armed with decent automatics or against targets in the open. It wasn't helping things that your combat pool refreshed every time you acted. Augmented sams were gods in combat. This wouldn't be near as much a problem in SR4 as those sams just can't kill things as fast as they used to.

SR3 and later isn't necessarily better it's just different and I run things differently. SR3 and later meant I didn't need to throw a dozen targets at the PCs every encounter. No more multiple actions before the opposition can react. Combat pool was once a round too. Being fast still let you act first and you still had several initiative passes. The sams killed just as many goons, just now the goons could shoot back before they all went down. Combat was a lot more dangerous than it used to be and everybody at the table usually got to act once.

Which is better? Well that depends on your group and your taste.
Doc Byte
I have a house rule draft somewhere on my HDD. Basically it devides combat into 'actions' (e.g. shooting) and 'reactions' (e.g. dodging). Everybody has one action and one reaction. Instead of having more IPs, a wired sam gets more reactions. It is however possible to spend a reaction for getting an extra action. But this comes along with a negative DP modifier.
Karoline
QUOTE (Raven the Trickster @ May 16 2010, 11:12 PM) *
My GM and I just read this and bot really like it. Looks like we'll be adopting this for our games, thanks for the idea!

You're very welcome. Glad you liked it so much. Please, tell me how it works out once you've used it a bit.
HappyDaze
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 17 2010, 08:26 AM) *
You're very welcome. Glad you liked it so much. Please, tell me how it works out once you've used it a bit.

I like it too. If I run something in SR4 again, I may put it to use too.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Daylen @ May 16 2010, 07:10 PM) *
and would the passes be determined by ones Panache?


Only for Swashbuckling pirates. smile.gif

As for the IPs question. I really don't look at how "real" or "makes sense" it is. In practice we are playing a game. Sitting around a table and taking turns having our fun.

My first assumption is that extra actions/effectiveness matter more for combat focused characters. That's where they are supposed to shine. Out of combat the other archetypes don't need extra actions because they have the mad skillz.

In SR2 with the way the combat round went, you'd have a couple players in the group kill everything before the others got to act. Three or four turns of combat where more then half the people of the table just watch the others and never get to participate. In addition to that, if the opponents were smart ones, they might be targeting the slow and low IP PC as part of the Geek the Mage strategy. So you have a player who not only isn't participating, but vulnerable to be being toasted. Given this it's not surprising everyone feels absolutely compelled to take any possible IP bonus they can.

In SR3 this got alleviated in that at least everyone got to (re)act before the combat monkeys got to have their shining moment in the sun producing a rain of blood.

In SR4, not only does everyone get to act, but everyone can choose to act first or act an extra time if they really need to using Edge. Combat monkeys get extra actions to shine during combat, they can get more or be more effective if they want, and the non combat characters can (re)act if they really need to, but it's not out of balance where one type can dominate at the complete expense of another player.
HappyDaze
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ May 17 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Given this it's not surprising everyone feels absolutely compelled to take any possible IP bonus they can.

IME, this is still absolutely true regarding SR 4 too. Additionally, SR4 opened up pet-spamming to everyone, so now most of the characters that are not combat monsters can still have their guard dog drones and pull action spam out in force. Comparing a guy with 1 IP to a guy with 4 IP looks bad, but if they both have three drones that each get 3 IP, it's proportionately less of a difference (1:4 vs 10:13).
tete
QUOTE (Karoline @ May 17 2010, 01:41 AM) *
Another way to do it that would be something I suggested once, which was a pyramid system of sorts. Went something like this:
CODE
4IP   4IP   4IP   4IP
   3IP   3IP   3IP
      2IP   2IP
         1IP

So basically someone with 4IP will always go first, then someone with 3IP will go before the guy with 4IP goes again or anyone else goes for the first time. Then when the 4IP goes a second time, the 2IP also goes, with who goes first based off init like normal, and so on. That way IPs are a way to ensure going first, and get can get you 2 passes before someone with 2 fewer IPs than you can go at all, without leaving lower IP people completely defenseless, since they won't have to wait for the high IP people to completely finish the battle before they can do anything.

Bit more complicated I suppose, but I think it would produce good results which are a mix between speedy getting to act faster, and not leaving normal humans totally out of the picture.


Thats basicly the way SLA Industries handle it. They break a round into 5 passes where the slowest guy goes on 3 and the fast guy goes on 1 through 5
Synner667
Now, obviously everyone plays the game they want to play, in the manner they want to play it...
...But redefining a system just to allow everyone to have a go kind of destroys the whole point of boosted characters - they are meant to be fast, which means they can do a lot of things before anyone else.

That's why they are combat machines.
That's why every character isn't meant to have jacked up reflexes.
Which is why characters are meant to be intelligent and strategic - because guns kill.

Yah, the pyramid initiative scheme is quite good...
...Which is why the HERO system has been using it for 20+ years, and the extra complexity is why most people don't use it.
HappyDaze
QUOTE (Synner667 @ May 17 2010, 12:43 PM) *
Now, obviously everyone plays the game they want to play, in the manner they want to play it...

...and the extra complexity is why most people don't use it.

The beginning and end of your post can sum up the matrix rules, vehicle combat/chase, ritual spellcasting, some of the fencing loot rules, much of the advanced lifestyles, and any number of other aspects of SR.
Man-of-many-Chars
I respect anyone who has a different approach, but for us in a low power campaign (although low power gets some interesting definitions...) we can't have everyone run around with drones or these things (with exception to the rigger/hacker) and enjoy if everyone gets a light to shine in combat wink.gif

Everybody as he likes. But I admit some of these systems may be worth looking into, even if just for my curiosity.
Ol' Scratch
S'what I like about the system I mentioned earlier in the thread.

It's chaotic and dynamic. The faster/boosted characters will have more opportunities to go first, but they're not guaranteed it. Sometimes the completely unaugmented character will be the first to act in a combat turn, sometimes they'll be dead last, and sometimes they'll be somewhere in the middle. It rewards augmented characters, prevents unaugmented characters from being bored every single combat turn, and keeps things unpredictable and interesting from turn to turn.

It's also really fast to resolve and doesn't require you to jot down any numbers from turn to turn, which are both added perks.
Draco18s
QUOTE (tete @ May 17 2010, 12:32 PM) *
Thats basicly the way SLA Industries handle it. They break a round into 5 passes where the slowest guy goes on 3 and the fast guy goes on 1 through 5


Alpha Omega did the same thing (though it was 6 second rounds divided up into 6 "passes") though there were many actions that were time based, eg. it didn't matter how many actions you actually got it still took 8 seconds to cast that giant "kill everything in a mile radius" spell (unless you burned some extra Endurance to shorten it) and 4 seconds to reload a mortar.
HappyDaze
QUOTE (Man-of-many-Chars @ May 17 2010, 11:52 AM) *
I respect anyone who has a different approach, but for us in a low power campaign (although low power gets some interesting definitions...) we can't have everyone run around with drones or these things (with exception to the rigger/hacker) and enjoy if everyone gets a light to shine in combat wink.gif

Everybody as he likes. But I admit some of these systems may be worth looking into, even if just for my curiosity.

Drones are quite cheap and they don't require any hacking talents to use effectively. In a low power campaign, you can go with low-end drones and still get away with spending less than a cyberman with low-end 'ware. Just remember to go with freeware for most of your programs and - if you splurge for any higher-end programs - to burn copies for your extra drones so you only have to pay the cost once. You may have some problems against high-end hackers, but if you're in a low power campaign, your opposition is unlikely to hit that too soon or too often.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Synner667 @ May 17 2010, 11:43 AM) *
That's why every character isn't meant to have jacked up reflexes.


That bit is a nice sentiment but it underestimates the law of unintended consequences. Any world in which jacked up reflexes are as powerful as they were in SR3 will logically lead to just about every combat oriented player character (read: Damn near every shadowrunner who's ever had anyone point a gun at them) having some form of jacked up reflexes provided that they are as affordable as they have become in SR4. That's because it's generally pretty hard to make your character very tanky without dedicating a lot of BPs in that direction by being a troll, sinking 5+ into Body or getting cyberlimbs or whatever. It's just easier to grab Passes, Dodge and Reaction so you can at least always have Full Defense up while still being able to take turns. To the point that if I asked for an IC reason why they had wires, I'd probably just nod if they said "Because I'm a professional criminal and people shoot at me." It's honestly just a pretty damn nice thing to have. It's why everyone in my group right now already has a form of jacked up reaction, and they're at 12 karma right now and haven't acquired any new 'ware. The game is centralized around Passes enough that I don't really think making them into an unwritten requirement would really do anything but make mooks into a complete joke.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2010, 02:55 PM) *
The game is centralized around Passes enough that I don't really think making them into an unwritten requirement would really do anything but make mooks into a complete joke.


A game in which the mooks go last is a game in which the mooks don't exist except to absorb ammunition. And in that kind of game where ammo is cheap, mooks don't exist.
Dumori
I have to say Dr. Funkenstein's method seams mighty fun.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 17 2010, 02:09 PM) *
A game in which the mooks go last is a game in which the mooks don't exist except to absorb ammunition. And in that kind of game where ammo is cheap, mooks don't exist.



Which is something I'm fine with, just not at my table. It can be fun wading through guys or only feeling challenged when you're up against another killing machine fight turns into a battle of killing machine. But as a GM I prefer having things a li'l more grounded.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2010, 03:21 PM) *
Which is something I'm fine with, just not at my table. It can be fun wading through guys or only feeling challenged when you're up against another killing machine fight turns into a battle of killing machine. But as a GM I prefer having things a li'l more grounded.


The 4th edition of That Other Game did mooks right and proper: any damage kills them, but left alive they're fucking dangerous* and generally come in groups larger than the party can take care of in a round (8 plus standards for a party of 4-6).

Thing is, that can't be extended to SR where you can split your pool to hit two targets or get 4 times as many actions (especially in a game where all four of your actions go before the mook's one).

But yes, I suppose there's room for games where you shoot fish in a barrel and find it fun.

*Standard monster does 1d6 damage. Mook of the same caliber does 6, always.
Caadium
QUOTE (Synner @ May 16 2010, 05:20 PM) *
Curiously this was an optional rule that I had slated for the now-increasingly unlikely Mr. Johnson's Companion . Simply invert the order of the default IP initiative system - so that you start at IP4 with only people possessing 4 IPs getting to act, then IP3 when only people with 3IPs get to go, then IP2, and finally IP1 when everyone with a single IP gets to act - produces results similar to the pre-SR3 initiative system where wired/boosted combatants get to act multiple times before unaugmented types plus it requires only a minimal amount of tweaking.


A houserule that I've been using for a couple of years, and have posted here on DS a few times, is a hybrid of the published system and yours. I understand the arguments for both side, and I do recall being the unaugmented waiting for the fight to end so I could get 1 action. Similarly, I remember the invention of IPs and suddenly feeling that the 5 essence spend on Rigger Control 3 (hey, it was pricey back then) was suddenly less impressive. So, in SR3 I came up with a hybrid rule that I then converted over to SR4.

When I run, things go IP3, IP1, IP4, IP2. I've not had to deal with 5 IP yet, but I think I'd put it at the end, after IP2.

Doing it this way gives fast folks 1 IP before most mundanes, then the IP with mundanes (in which they will usually go first), and then other extra IP. If you are fast, that 1 extra IP can be usefull; but if you are mundane, you aren't stuck waiting forever.

Now, I skipped most of this thread, so if I missed something vital sorry. Just thought I'd offer this up as this topic has returned again.
tete
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 17 2010, 06:55 PM) *
Any world in which jacked up reflexes are as powerful as they were in SR3


You mean SR2... SR3 IP is the same as 4 only rather that getting auto IPs you had to roll, meaning you may end up on the bottom despite your ware

SR1 only had 4 passes and non-ware people had good odds of going twice as you needed to beat 8 IIRC

SR2 simplified the math making it every 10 and the fast guy keeps going until the slow guy has a higher score than him.
Surt
personally its a matter of preference personally I prefer my combat to require positioning and tactics abit more. Way back when if you stacked initiative you could just butcher people left and right without worrying about retaliation. Now combat in my group usually plays at with one guy giving suppresive fire while the troll flanks him to get a clean shot.
The Monk
My group has been doing this for the last few months and it is working well:

Basically, everyone has Sticks which equal their Initiative Pass plus one ("why Sticks" you ask, well keep reading). So someone with one IP will have two Sticks, while someone with three IPs will have four Sticks. A character can spend one Stick to perform a Simple Action or two to perform a Complex Action. Initiative is rolled normally (but we only roll for initiative once and keep it for the rest of the combat).

The Combat Round is done in three Phases. Up to two Sticks can be used in one Phase (for two Simple or one Complex Actions as normal, but Sticks don't have to be used, for example you can spend one Stick to perform one Simple Action during that Phase, saving other Sticks until another Phase, or you can use none at all). After your Initiative, a player can delay their actions to a lower Initiative, but in every Pass the Initiative is counted down from highest to lowest again. One Stick can be carried over to the next Combat Round (it is then added to your Sticks for the new round), other unused Sticks are lost.

To keep things flowing, I bought a bundle of colored tongue suppressors (they look like large popsicle sticks), the sticks are used to keep track of your, um... Sticks. During a Combat Round, players use up their Sticks until they have none left. They can use them in any of the three Phases, and they can save one to carry over to the next Round.

They can also give up two Sticks to go Full Defense at any time in the Combat Round. This gives the benefit of Full Defense to the player for the entire Combat Round (or whatever is left of it), however Full Defense has to incorporate the Dodge skill. This means that Full Defense is not an Interrupt Action, but more on that on the next block of text.

Martial Arts Interrupt Actions uses two Sticks, which can come from the players current pool of Sticks, or up to two Sticks can be "borrowed" from the next Combat Round. With that limitation, any amount of Interrupt Actions can be used in a Combat Round.

One Edge can be spent to add two Sticks at any time during a Combat Round.

Draco18s
QUOTE (The Monk @ May 17 2010, 04:36 PM) *
They can also give up two Sticks to go Full Defense at any time in the Combat Round. This gives the benefit of Full Defense to the player for the entire Combat Round (or whatever is left of it), however Full Defense has to incorporate the Dodge skill. This means that Full Defense is not an Interrupt Action, but more on that on the next block of text.


For a while my GM thought that the non-interupt version of full defense did in fact last the entire round. Once we learned that it did in fact not, I--as a player--stopped taking Dodge: getting to cover worked so much better.

As a non-group skill Dodge really needs more RAW love, and making it a full-round benefit helps out significantly.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (tete @ May 17 2010, 03:05 PM) *
You mean SR2... SR3 IP is the same as 4 only rather that getting auto IPs you had to roll, meaning you may end up on the bottom despite your ware

SR1 only had 4 passes and non-ware people had good odds of going twice as you needed to beat 8 IIRC

SR2 simplified the math making it every 10 and the fast guy keeps going until the slow guy has a higher score than him.



I always mix that stuff up when it comes to the nitty gritty of the older edition rules. I was on the outside looking in when it comes to earlier editions due to age and location. Never really got a chance to play much but I got to look through a LOT of source books due to an older friend and a rather nice LGS owner. Still, you know what I mean; back in earlier editions being wired up required a bigger sacrifice than you have to make get the equivalent SR4 tech, and purportedly a samurai could waltz into a room, geek a guy and then tip his hat to the poor sod's wife on the way out before the mundos have a chance to draw. Not sure if I want that in my games.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 17 2010, 10:46 AM) *
The beginning and end of your post can sum up the matrix rules, vehicle combat/chase, ritual spellcasting, some of the fencing loot rules, much of the advanced lifestyles, and any number of other aspects of SR.



I keep hearing this, but I have not experienced this in 4th Edition...
And yes, we use all of the above mentioned rules...
YMMV of Course...

Just Sayin'
Heath Robinson
I think I'll just leave this here.

Really, I should update it with some of these suggestions.
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