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> Building Bioware with Cybertechnology, How does a cybertechnologist create bioware?
Hand-E-Food
post May 19 2010, 03:54 AM
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Hello peoples!

One of my character's is a melee fighter/bioware specialist. I've boosted her fairly well with bioware, but intend to take it much further with Beta- or Delta-ware. What I'm not sure about it what it takes to create a piece of bioware.

From Growing Organs/Clones, Augmentation p126: Cloning an organ requires a medical facility, a tissue sample, and a Medicine (Organ Culture) + Logic (6, 1 hour) Extended Test to get started. The actual growth time varies by organ, as noted on the Body Part table.

I'm thinking:
  • A medical facility and cybertechnology shop are required to manufacture bioware.
  • Halve the cost of the product as you don't need to pay for labour. Standard availability rules apply.
  • Roll an extended Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (6, 1 hour) test until the bioware is prepared.
  • Glitches reduce the grade of the product by one level. A critical glitch kills the specimen.
  • Wait the number of weeks listed in the table in the Body Part table, Augmentation p127. Double this time for bioware above standard grade. The cybertechnologist must attend to the bioware daily to ensure proper growth.
  • The transplant is a separate expense and extended test, as per the Implant Surgery table, Augmentation p127.

Does this sound reasonable?
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 04:11 AM
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Creating bioware from scratch is generally out of the range of a runner. Just cloning a basic organ requires a full medical facility (or a shop if it's specifically purchased for cloning). Page 127 goes into more detail on the subject, basically telling you the same thing -- that your only real option is to acquire the bioware through other channels.

If bioware was something anyone could create with just a few thousand nuyen, the prices on them would be nowhere near as high as they currently are in the game.
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Karoline
post May 19 2010, 04:17 AM
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Sounds like not nearly enough effort to me, especially in the check department. I do agree with most of the other stuff though. I'd suggest that instead of making it a simple 6, 1 hour test to get it to grow and then making sure it doesn't die, it should be something like Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (cost/10,000 * (1 per 10% essence reduction, so delta would be *5), 1 week) extended test. That's a little lower than I'd like for the cheaper ware, but it works well for the more expensive stuff I think. Maybe do it something like cost/5000 for the first 50k, then it goes up by 1 for each additional 10k until 150k, then it goes up for each additional 20k. Still has the low end bio a little easier to make than I think it should be, but it isn't so bad.
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Yerameyahu
post May 19 2010, 04:56 AM
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It's kind of funny that they even have rules for the various facilities in the book. What *shadowrunner* will ever get control of a whole (chemical/mechanical/weapons/medical) industrial complex? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 05:13 AM
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A facility is different from a factory. Players don't normally get access to factories.
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Hand-E-Food
post May 19 2010, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 19 2010, 02:11 PM) *
Creating bioware from scratch is generally out of the range of a runner. Just cloning a basic organ requires a full medical facility (or a shop if it's specifically purchased for cloning). Page 127 goes into more detail on the subject, basically telling you the same thing -- that your only real option is to acquire the bioware through other channels.

If bioware was something anyone could create with just a few thousand nuyen, the prices on them would be nowhere near as high as they currently are in the game.


I just found this in Useful Skills and Specializations, Augmentation p120:
    Cybertechnology: Detailed on p. 123, SR4, Cybertechnology skill handles the design, manufacture/growth, maintenance, modification, and repair of all implants, including cyberware, bioware, and nanoware systems.
And under the skill description in the Corebook:
    A proper facility and the right materials are needed to manufacture cyberware—see Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair, p. 138.
So I'm going with it being possible, though very difficult.


Bioware must be able to be created for a few thousand nuyen. They wouldn't sell for that price if the raw ingredients cost more. The research into how to manufacture a new piece bioware is another story. That's where purchasing a plan comes in.

The medical facility is the big restriction. At 100,000¥, it'd take some time just to acquire that. You'd also require at least a high lifestyle to have a building that could accommodate the facility. The cybertechnology skill cannot be defaulted, hence is also a requirement. Also, a plan for manufacturing each piece of bioware is required.

QUOTE (Karoline @ May 19 2010, 02:17 PM) *
Sounds like not nearly enough effort to me, especially in the check department. I do agree with most of the other stuff though. I'd suggest that instead of making it a simple 6, 1 hour test to get it to grow and then making sure it doesn't die, it should be something like Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (cost/10,000 * (1 per 10% essence reduction, so delta would be *5), 1 week) extended test. That's a little lower than I'd like for the cheaper ware, but it works well for the more expensive stuff I think. Maybe do it something like cost/5000 for the first 50k, then it goes up by 1 for each additional 10k until 150k, then it goes up for each additional 20k. Still has the low end bio a little easier to make than I think it should be, but it isn't so bad.


I was thinking the same thing about effort.

I understand the purpose behind your idea, but looking at the most extreme example: Delta-ware Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 800,000¥, 0.75 essence, 263 threshold, approx. 66 weeks (from 12 dice.)

One thing the book states is that bioware is produced from scratch in 2 to 4 weeks, double that for alpha-ware or better, and another week of customization for beta- and delta-ware. That's counting from your first appointment with the cybertechnologist. Additional time is required for surgery and healing. Having a weekly extended test doesn't seem right. The Delta-ware Synaptic Booster should take about 9 weeks to manufacture.

My first thought was a threshold of 6 for standard grade, plus 4 for each grade above standard. The only reason I dropped that is a lot of the difficulty appears to be in acquiring the raw materials. Alpha-ware and better requires significantly more expensive material, but may still use the same manufacturing process.

In regards to the difficulty to start the bioware, look at the hacking action Hack-on-the-fly. This action would work perfectly every time if there wasn't a time limit: the system's Analyze + Firewall (hacker's Stealth) extended test. Maybe that's needed here?

New ideas, where standard grade = 1 and delta-ware grade = 4:
  • To start the process, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (2 + 4*grade, 1 hour) extended test. This test must be completed in 4 hours or it fails.
  • Each week, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (grade) test. If this test fails, the product grade is reduced one level (delta, beta, alpha, standard, second-hand, dead.)
    For delta-ware, it would be difficult to consistently roll 4 hits over 5 to 9 weeks, even with 12 dice.



Thoughts?
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (Hand-E-Food @ May 19 2010, 12:15 AM) *
I just found this in Useful Skills and Specializations, Augmentation p120:
    Cybertechnology: Detailed on p. 123, SR4, Cybertechnology skill handles the design, manufacture/growth, maintenance, modification, and repair of all implants, including cyberware, bioware, and nanoware systems.
And under the skill description in the Corebook:
    A proper facility and the right materials are needed to manufacture cyberware—see Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair, p. 138.
So I'm going with it being possible, though very difficult.

Those two quotes are very different things.

First, yes, Cybertechnology is the skill used to create bioware. Much like Aeronautics Mechanic is the skill used to build space shuttles and interplanetary ships. That doesn't mean it falls within the limits of what a runner can conceivably build on their own with basic equipment in a facility. And as large as a Facility is, it's not a Factory. A Factory is what corporations use to build and design things. A facility is just a more advanced shop; it only costs 100,000 nuyen for a reason. Factories cost millions if not hundreds of millions (or even billions) of nuyen. The difference between a shop and a facility is the difference between a guy's garage where he rebuilds cars for a hobby, and a professional garage that can support multiple vehicles and teams of workers (like, say, the OCC shop from American Choppers). They can build custom components, sure, but they couldn't design a vehicle completely from scratch using only only raw materials -- that's simply out of their range.

Second, yes, building your own cyberware is far more conceivable with a facility. Cyberware is a cheap, mechanical, and well-studied science in the 2070s. If you have the components, putting everything together and customizing the pieces is well within your limits. Both bioware and nanoware are not. Growing a simple clone is pushing it, but creating your own organs, from scratch, and modified to specific users and to the point of beta or even deltaware grades? Way way way inappropriate for a single guy in a facility.
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Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 06:55 AM
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QUOTE (Hand-E-Food @ May 18 2010, 08:54 PM) *
Hello peoples!

One of my character's is a melee fighter/bioware specialist. I've boosted her fairly well with bioware, but intend to take it much further with Beta- or Delta-ware. What I'm not sure about it what it takes to create a piece of bioware.

From Growing Organs/Clones, Augmentation p126: Cloning an organ requires a medical facility, a tissue sample, and a Medicine (Organ Culture) + Logic (6, 1 hour) Extended Test to get started. The actual growth time varies by organ, as noted on the Body Part table.

I'm thinking:
  • A medical facility and cybertechnology shop are required to manufacture bioware.
  • Halve the cost of the product as you don't need to pay for labour. Standard availability rules apply.
  • Roll an extended Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (6, 1 hour) test until the bioware is prepared.
  • Glitches reduce the grade of the product by one level. A critical glitch kills the specimen.
  • Wait the number of weeks listed in the table in the Body Part table, Augmentation p127. Double this time for bioware above standard grade. The cybertechnologist must attend to the bioware daily to ensure proper growth.
  • The transplant is a separate expense and extended test, as per the Implant Surgery table, Augmentation p127.

Does this sound reasonable?

QUOTE
Note that the [lifestyles cost] will only cover the basic shelter, utilities, and space requirements. PCs will have to purchase equipment and tools separately. A character may purchase separate facilities/workshops apart from their normal lifestyle.
Clockwork needs a big space to work on his vehicles. He pays to rent a warehouse, separate from his apartment, where he sets up his facility. The total costs for the warehouse are Comforts (0 LP), Entertainment (0 LP), Necessities (4 LP), Neighborhood (2 LP), Security (3 LP) = 9 LP/1,700¥ per month.

However, i think Comforts of at least 1 are required -- you at least have old furniture, you've scavenged furniture from garage sales or made it yourself. Also, you need a neighborhood of at least 3 or your electricity is rationed which is a major no-no for a facility. So, base is 11LP for 2,600¥ per month. If you want, you could also get Fung Shui which provides +3 dice to artisan and technical skill tests, but that would increase the base rent to 6k¥/month.

Then you need to purchase the equipment. Unfortunately, space is generally cheap, it's the equipment that's expensive. You'll probably end up paying about the same amount as book value, but you'll get to say that you made it yourself! The rest of it sounds about right.
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Udoshi
post May 19 2010, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ May 18 2010, 09:17 PM) *
Sounds like not nearly enough effort to me, especially in the check department. I do agree with most of the other stuff though. I'd suggest that instead of making it a simple 6, 1 hour test to get it to grow and then making sure it doesn't die, it should be something like Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (cost/10,000 * (1 per 10% essence reduction, so delta would be *5), 1 week) extended test. That's a little lower than I'd like for the cheaper ware, but it works well for the more expensive stuff I think. Maybe do it something like cost/5000 for the first 50k, then it goes up by 1 for each additional 10k until 150k, then it goes up for each additional 20k. Still has the low end bio a little easier to make than I think it should be, but it isn't so bad.


I'd just use the Hardware rules as a guideline, and then add some. It costs half materials, but you have to make checks to have it work out. I'd also enforce the Design Knowledge requirement for actually doing something like this, as well as access to the right facilities. Increase the thresholds to something appropriate for the grade - and then make the player wait for it to grow. Possibly even sweat a bit as the Rent/lifestyle time comes by.

Other than that, yes, the entire thread seems to be about right. Nothing else jumps out at me.
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Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 18 2010, 11:55 PM) *
Then you need to purchase the equipment. Unfortunately, space is generally cheap, it's the equipment that's expensive. You'll probably end up paying about the same amount as book value, but you'll get to say that you made it yourself! The rest of it sounds about right.

As a side benefit, although people might track who's picking up plans for these things, you don't have to worry about anyone tracking what you've bought.

I was at WestPack a couple months ago, this big convention in the Anaheim Convention Center. It was amazing -- the whole place was jam packed with, well, packing stuff. Desktop printers, people that sell boxes and jars of all types and materials and sizes, machines that print labels, that attach labels, syringes, pills, everything from microscopic packing and delivery systems to huge freight boxes that'll stack well in a cargo plane. It was an incredible convention. The equipment is going to end up costing far more than the space will.
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Karoline
post May 20 2010, 12:06 AM
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I understand the purpose behind your idea, but looking at the most extreme example: Delta-ware Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 800,000¥, 0.75 essence, 263 threshold, approx. 66 weeks (from 12 dice.)
[/quote]
I meant price before applying grade, which is why I added the multiplyer for grade.
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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (Hand-E-Food @ May 18 2010, 11:15 PM) *
New ideas, where standard grade = 1 and delta-ware grade = 4:
  • To start the process, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (2 + 4*grade, 1 hour) extended test. This test must be completed in 4 hours or it fails.
  • Each week, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (grade) test. If this test fails, the product grade is reduced one level (delta, beta, alpha, standard, second-hand, dead.)
    For delta-ware, it would be difficult to consistently roll 4 hits over 5 to 9 weeks, even with 12 dice.



Thoughts?


Exceptional attribute, genetic optimization, PuSHeD, a level 3 cerebral booster, level 3 neocortical nanites, a specialization in bioware, exceptional tools and working conditions, and an AR blueprint gives an extra 15 dice, making it easy to buy the necessary successes. You may want to increase the grade rating by 2 and add an addition 1 or 2 for cultured bioware. This would mean that it's still possible for a corp backed team, with a moderately optimized leader*, to churn out delta grade bioware, while making it difficult for an uber optimized runner to do the same.

*The team:
Leader:
Logic 6 ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Cybertechnology (Bioware) 6 (+2)
PuSHeD
Cerebral Booster 2
Neocortical Nanites 2

Team members (2):
Logic 5 (6)
Cybertechnology (Bioware) 5 (+2)
Cerebral Booster 1

All have access to exceptional work conditions, tools, and an AR blueprint. Leader has 25 dice, each team member has 18 dice, buying successes you'd have eight hits per test.
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Karoline
post May 20 2010, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 19 2010, 09:26 PM) *
Exceptional attribute, genetic optimization, PuSHeD, a level 3 cerebral booster, level 3 neocortical nanites, a specialization in bioware, exceptional tools and working conditions, and an AR blueprint gives an extra 15 dice, making it easy to buy the necessary successes. You may want to increase the grade rating by 2 and add an addition 1 or 2 for cultured bioware. This would mean that it's still possible for a corp backed team, with a moderately optimized leader*, to churn out delta grade bioware, while making it difficult for an uber optimized runner to do the same.

*The team:
Leader:
Logic 6 ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Cybertechnology (Bioware) 6 (+2)
PuSHeD
Cerebral Booster 2
Neocortical Nanites 2

Team members (2):
Logic 5 (6)
Cybertechnology (Bioware) 5 (+2)
Cerebral Booster 1

All have access to exceptional work conditions, tools, and an AR blueprint. Leader has 25 dice, each team member has 18 dice, buying successes you'd have eight hits per test.


Agreed. 12 dice is not alot, and honestly if that is all you can manage, it should be impossible to make delta grade stuff, not simply difficult. The thing you have to keep in mind is that when the big companies are doing this, they can devote dozens, or even hundreds of highly trained people to the task (which is why deltaware stuff costs a fortune). Only a logic monkey should have even a slight prayer of making delta grade stuff on their own. It should generally require the most advanced lab possible (likely more than a simple 'facility' grade thing covers) with bleeding edge tools and large teams of the most skilled scientists possible, using highly refined procedures and blueprints, likely with lots of computer assistance.
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Hand-E-Food
post May 20 2010, 02:16 AM
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Thank you everyone for the feedback!

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 19 2010, 03:33 PM) *
And as large as a Facility is, it's not a Factory. A Factory is what corporations use to build and design things. A facility is just a more advanced shop; it only costs 100,000 nuyen for a reason. Factories cost millions if not hundreds of millions (or even billions) of nuyen.

I get what you're saying now. I'm still inclined to argue that point for a small-scale operation, but I see where you're coming from now.

QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 04:55 PM) *
However, i think Comforts of at least 1 are required -- you at least have old furniture, you've scavenged furniture from garage sales or made it yourself. Also, you need a neighborhood of at least 3 or your electricity is rationed which is a major no-no for a facility. So, base is 11LP for 2,600¥ per month. If you want, you could also get Fung Shui which provides +3 dice to artisan and technical skill tests, but that would increase the base rent to 6k¥/month.

Nice! Thanks!

QUOTE (Karoline @ May 20 2010, 10:06 AM) *
I understand the purpose behind your idea, but looking at the most extreme example: Delta-ware Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 800,000¥, 0.75 essence, 263 threshold, approx. 66 weeks (from 12 dice.)

I meant price before applying grade, which is why I added the multiplyer for grade.

Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So...

Standard Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 80,000¥, 24 threshold, approx. 6 weeks (from 12 dice.)
Delta-ware Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 800,000¥, 117 threshold, approx. 30 weeks (from 12 dice.)

Still high for delta-ware, but getting closer to a good model. I'm thinking the higher grade bioware doesn't so much take longer to make, but it's more expensive and more difficult to succeed at.

QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ May 20 2010, 11:26 AM) *
This would mean that it's still possible for a corp backed team, with a moderately optimized leader*, to churn out delta grade bioware, while making it difficult for an uber optimized runner to do the same.

That's a good point! I forgot to count assistants.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 20 2010, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ May 19 2010, 07:33 PM) *
Agreed. 12 dice is not alot, and honestly if that is all you can manage, it should be impossible to make delta grade stuff, not simply difficult. The thing you have to keep in mind is that when the big companies are doing this, they can devote dozens, or even hundreds of highly trained people to the task (which is why deltaware stuff costs a fortune). Only a logic monkey should have even a slight prayer of making delta grade stuff on their own. It should generally require the most advanced lab possible (likely more than a simple 'facility' grade thing covers) with bleeding edge tools and large teams of the most skilled scientists possible, using highly refined procedures and blueprints, likely with lots of computer assistance.


And lets not forget the medical bioscan and diagnostics so that the 'ware can be specifically typed, matched and tuned to the recipient...

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Deadmannumberone
post May 20 2010, 02:20 AM
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And I didn't even touch on the SURGED pixie mystic adept with the improved ability power, the analyze device spell and metagenic improvement. That's 0.9 Essence in augmentations (or 1.65 if you want a nanohive so you don't have to keep re-upping your nanites) and 1.5 points in powers for a total of 33 + (hits on analyze device) dice, and (if you go with a cerebral booster 2 instead of 3) it's possible at chargen.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 20 2010, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Hand-E-Food @ May 19 2010, 08:16 PM) *
Thank you everyone for the feedback!


I get what you're saying now. I'm still inclined to argue that point for a small-scale operation, but I see where you're coming from now.


Nice! Thanks!


Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So...

Standard Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 80,000¥, 24 threshold, approx. 6 weeks (from 12 dice.)
Delta-ware Synaptic Booster (rating 3), 800,000¥, 117 threshold, approx. 30 weeks (from 12 dice.)

Still high for delta-ware, but getting closer to a good model. I'm thinking the higher grade bioware doesn't so much take longer to make, but it's more expensive and more difficult to succeed at.


That's a good point! I forgot to count assistants.


Excuse me a minute... But your base calculations are all wrong...

Standard Synaptic Booster (Rating 3) costs 240,000 Nuyen, not 80,000...
and the Delta Equivalent would be 2.4 Million Nuyen, not 800,000...

Just wanted to point that out...

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Hand-E-Food
post May 20 2010, 02:43 AM
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I want these rules to work for standard-grade bioware as much as delta-grade bioware. If delta-grade becomes out of reach for a runner, then that's the way it is. It just stands that the rules for making standard-grade bioware should also apply to delta-grade bioware.

So, revised rules for manufacturing bioware:
  • Minimum requirements:
    • Cybertechnology skill,
    • A medical facility or specialised medical shop,
    • A cybertechnology shop,
    • Plans for the bioware to be manufactured, and
    • The recipient's tissue sample.
  • The material cost is half the shelf price.
  • If desired, assistants must be located and paid accordingly.
  • Roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (threshold, 1 hour) extended test to prepare the specimen for growth. This test must be completed in four hours or the specimen fails and 20% (50%?) of the monetary investment is lost.
    A single enthusiast can easily generate 3 hits per roll. Using Deadmannumberone's maths, an expert team can comfortably generate 8 hits per roll. Using that, the threshold for starting bioware is:
    • Standard: 8 hits (12 hits?)
    • Alpha-ware: 16 hits
    • Beta-ware: 24 hits
    • Delta-ware: 32 hits
  • The bioware grows for the normal period of time. Double this time for alpha-grade or better.
  • After beta-grade or delta-grade bioware is grown, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (threshold, 1 day) extended test to customize the specimen for the recipient.
    • Beta-ware: 12 hits (18 hits?)
    • Delta-ware: 16 hits (24 hits?)
    EDIT: This rule applies to cyberware, not bioware.
  • Glitches on any roll reduce the grade of the product by one level. This does not reduce the threshold required to finish the test. A critical glitch kills the specimen.
  • The transplant is paid and performed separately.


Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Hand-E-Food: May 20 2010, 06:27 AM
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Hand-E-Food
post May 20 2010, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 20 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Excuse me a minute... But your base calculations are all wrong...

Standard Synaptic Booster (Rating 3) costs 240,000 Nuyen, not 80,000...
and the Delta Equivalent would be 2.4 Million Nuyen, not 800,000...

Just wanted to point that out...

Good point! Thanks!
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 20 2010, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Hand-E-Food @ May 19 2010, 08:44 PM) *
Good point! Thanks!


Hey... Null Perspiration Chummer...

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HappyDaze
post May 20 2010, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE
After beta-grade or delta-grade bioware is grown, roll a Cybertechnology (Bioware) + Logic (threshold, 1 day) extended test to customize the specimen for the recipient.

I'm pretty sure this is backwards - you need to customize it first then grow it out for betaware and deltaware.
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Hand-E-Food
post May 20 2010, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 20 2010, 01:56 PM) *
I'm pretty sure this is backwards - you need to customize it first then grow it out for betaware and deltaware.

You're probably right. In that case, I'd still suggest that the test be rolled at the end of the growth period. This way, if this test fails, you don't know about it's effects until the bioware is finished growing.

I just had another look, and it turns out the customization applies to cyberware, not bioware. The only obstacle with cultured bioware is the double growth time (and price and difficulty.) I'm scratching that rule from the list.
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