Hacking to Kill..., Family fun with virtual space Options

[Draco18s]

Allowing hackable cyber leads to situations where players hack NPC cyber left and right to the point at which a PC is "rigging" a metahuman against their will and without a stirrup interface.
("He's got two cyberlegs? Awesome, I command the legs to walk him up to the vault...")

[Yerameyahu]

Slaving to your commlink should be safe, because your commlink should be properly protected. I don't think it's a good idea, in a whizzy cyberpunk game, to say things like 'the limb can't be controlled', etc. It's kind of the whole point.

[LurkerOutThere]

But what do you possibly gain by slaving your arm to you comlink? If someone named me one single benefit to connecting your cyberarm to your pan I might consider it, but as it stands there is none, just a whole pacel of risks and the very real possibility your very limbs might be turned against you, which is utter bull.

[Draco18s]

Slaving to your commlink should be safe, because your commlink should be properly protected. I don't think it's a good idea, in a whizzy cyberpunk game, to say things like 'the limb can't be controlled', etc. It's kind of the whole point.

How is your commlink "safe"? You have to actually buy a decent comm first, which most people don't do, and then you have to load it up with 3 or 4 (good) expensive programs.

A player will be able to do this most of the time, but NPCs? Doubtful that every security guard ever runs a R5 agent, R5 Armor, and R5 IC on his R5 comlink with an R5 firewall. It's just retarded. You shouldn't need to buy $15,000 worth of software to protect your arm from being hacked.

[Possession Mage]

While I have pointed out that the rules do allow, and even suggest it, I am 100% against being able to do it. My living character rolls 18 dice in a probe attempt and is running stealth 6 armor 6. Unless someone else is REALLY prepared for me, I can and will destroy their commlinks. A TM could do it with even more dice. Commlinks are NOT sare, period. Best way is to sit on signal 0 so people have to be next to you to hack (or daisy chain thru someone with higher signal that is next to you). There are alternate methods to communicate with your team on a run, and they aren't even that expensive.

If someone is that into VR, it's just as easy for that person to get a Samurai drone with a ingram white knight. Cheap and effective way to join in the combat. However, that said, as a GM I always advise talking through "powerful tactics" with your GM. They may not want you to do it as it would detract from the game. If you let your GM know you are entirely a hacker (not rigging at all) they may even accomodate that so you aren't useless in fights. It's a game and all about fun, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I think I said "should be safe" and "should be properly protected". Are you saying it shouldn't be safe? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I wasn't talking about NPCs. Neither did I say that you *have* to slave your cyberware. However, the alternatives are having your cyberware be a (very weak) node by itself, removing the 'ware from your PAN (with *potential* losses in options), and skinlinking.

While we're focusing on cyberlimbs for some reason, lots of 'ware benefits from being PAN'd. A plain old replacement limb might not, and you're not *forced* to do so. Why are you whining about something you don't have to do?

We already know that technomancers are insane, and mundane runner hackers are also able to do some amazing things. They're shadowrunners; that's the whole *point*. That's no reason to fundamentally alter the setting.

[Draco18s]

While I have pointed out that the rules do allow, and even suggest it, I am 100% against being able to do it. My living character rolls 18 dice in a probe attempt and is running stealth 6 armor 6. Unless someone else is REALLY prepared for me, I can and will destroy their commlinks.

Just to point out a set of rules I wrote up in an attempt to get hacking to work a little better. It would solve the "out of chargen pwns Renraku servers" characters, as it would be impossible for a character to start with the best equipment (rating 6/6/6/6 commlink) and pushing up the level that a non-hacker would be willing to spend money on (for example: signal very unimportant, 1; firewall important, 4; system unimportant, 2, response unimportant, 2 --> cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 3600). It's still hackable but would put up a defense against moderate hackers.

My write up needs a few tweaks still, but I haven't gotten around to it yet (for example, I intended for a hacker can only control 1 node at any given time, so you can't hack "all of their comlinks" you can only hack one of them, if you leave and hack another you lose control of the first one, but I don't think I actually wrote that down). But the most important change, that programs are "free" and that hardware is what's statistically important (and hard to acquire!) really helps balance things out (a rating 6/6/6/6 comm would cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 61800! Or almost twice what your current hacker needs to spend to be untracable*).

*Tops you need four programs:
Stealth
Exploit
Spoof
Armor
Though Decrypt, Databomb, and Defuse also come in handy.
So assuming R6 on all of them, and all of them are Hacking programs, and assuming you buy all 7 that costs you a mere (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 42,000. Spoof you could go cheaper (R4) and Databomb you could drop all together, and skim down to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 29,000. Armor is only necessary to survive long enough to get out of any cybercombats that you get into because you got observed, but if you think you can forgo that you can slim down another (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 6,000. Common use programs (every single one) at R6 totals all of about
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 8,000 (I've forgotten how much exactly), which is excessive (you don't need all of them).

[LurkerOutThere]

That's the problem, ware being able to be hacked is a fundamental alteration of the setting. Logically there are things you may want to put in your pan to get benefits of, your cyber eyes perhaps, your ears ditto, your arm? Why?

[Draco18s]

That's the problem, ware being able to be hacked is a fundamental alteration of the setting.

Er? Typo? Ware is hackable by the setting.

[LurkerOutThere]

I meant between editions in previous editions there was no practical way to hack a persons cyberware now by the somewhat soft and funky hacking rules supposedly everyone hooks their ware up to their pan for seemingly no other purpose then to make it hackable.

[Wandering One]

Er? Typo? Ware is hackable by the setting.

In SR 2, no, it wasn't. Not without walking up to it with a wire hanging out of your head and asking the pissed off troll very nicely to let you hook that thing into his arm. I agree and allow any character to completely disable wifi for cyberware and consider it 'old school', where there is no wireless, period. They DNI it just like they did in the old days, and there's a nice jack to hook in a wifi signal if you needed to. It does mean you're not recording your eyesight/hearing without head-data-storage, if you take that route, but that's a different story.

[RunnerPaul]

A player will be able to do this most of the time, but NPCs? Doubtful that every security guard ever runs a R5 agent, R5 Armor, and R5 IC on his R5 comlink with an R5 firewall.

What says that the rating 5 node that the security guard's equipment gets slaved to is an individually owned commlink strapped to his belt? It'd be much more cost effective for one of the building's nodes to serve the same purpose.

[Yerameyahu]

Um, you *can* disable the wireless, as I said. And, as people have pointed out, there are various great reasons *not* to. I don't see how this messes up the game. The whole point of cyberpunk is ability/security tradeoffs.

[LurkerOutThere]

What says that the rating 5 node that the security guard's equipment gets slaved to is an individually owned commlink strapped to his belt? It'd be much more cost effective for one of the building's nodes to serve the same purpose.

This the way I design systems for corporations my runners go against the downside is of course that once they've suberted the security node they own everything at once, although that can simplify and save a lot of rolls so it's almost a good thing from a GM perspective.

[Wandering One]

This the way I design systems for corporations my runners go against the downside is of course that once they've suberted the security node they own everything at once, although that can simplify and save a lot of rolls so it's almost a good thing from a GM perspective.

Hey Lurker, have you figured out the slaved to a slaved node rules? Specifically, cybereyes/ears from the guards slaved to the comm which is then slaved to the spyder node? Curious how that layering actually works out.

[Yerameyahu]

Assuming you can do that, it should just forward everything to the last Master. I don't think it would save on Subscription limits, though, because the Master is still processing as many subsidiary nodes either way.

[Possession Mage]

Well, in this case, you would likely register the commlink (assuming you ARE having it control the cyberware) to a parent node. In shadowrun, this means you MUST go through the parent node to get to the child (the security guards commlink). It doesn't give you auto success, it's just an extra level.

I am pretty sure (I will check up in a little) that this means no matter the signal, you can't hack the commlink at all without going thru the buildings node (not logical in the real world, but then a lot of things in shadowrun aren't when you look at it).

The most important thing if you do want to guard against this, is Analyse! This is what spots when someone is breaking in. Get an agent...have it run analyse non stop. So long as you have the same or less programs running as your commlinks response, it will scan every time. Firewall is also important to detect them on probe attempts (the initial check). Both of these together make it at least more likely you will spot the hacker and can react from there.

[Yerameyahu]

Just to be clear, *slaving* automatically and completely forwards connections to the Master. There's no 'hacking your way through multiple layers'.

Personally, and there's nothing explicitly about this is the rules AFAIK, I agree that you could slave the 'ware to the personal comm, hidden-mode connect the personal comm to the central node, and *then* hacking the central node would mean you still had to hack the personal comm. I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kanada Ten]

In the event of an emergency or security breach, all non-essential security personnel will be routed to safe zones located inside the facility, or designated evacuation areas. Please obey all official corporate AROs, which will provide the safest and swiftest path to your destination. Failure to follow official AROs will negatively affect any future insurance claims, and may result in employee termination.

[Draco18s]

In SR 2, no, it wasn't. Not without walking up to it with a wire hanging out of your head and asking the pissed off troll very nicely to let you hook that thing into his arm.

My mistake, I wasn't catching the full context.

[Nyost Akasuke]

A player will be able to do this most of the time, but NPCs? Doubtful that every security guard ever runs a R5 agent, R5 Armor, and R5 IC on his R5 comlink with an R5 firewall. It's just retarded. You shouldn't need to buy $15,000 worth of software to protect your arm from being hacked.

While I totally agree with this statement, I feel compelled to ask. How much can you buy that will protect you from a Mage's Control Actions? Influence? Control Thoughts? Correct me if I'm wrong, please, or if I've somehow got this backwards, but at the cost of one round of action, and maybe some stun damage, an enemy mage could conceivably have complete control over everything you do, not just your cyberarms or legs. I suppose there's something to be said for resisting the spell, but a large enough dice pool and really, it takes some luck to not fall under the power of those spells. A Hacker has to somehow connect to the cyberware target first, then go do his hacking mumbo jumbo to take control of the arm. Not quite sure how many rounds that might take, can't recall offhand since I'm still very inexperienced, but even a somewhat decent firewall or IC program can delay a hacker for a while, right? I mean, did I miss some sort of MC? Magical Countermeasure? That you can load up into your brain so street punks don't hex you into walking into traffic? Is there a Black Hammer program I missed for spells and the astral plane?

Hmm... MC Hammer.

Just throwin' it out there. I agree that it sucks to have to pay a gripload of nuyen to protect your limbs, but the abilities a mind mage possesses don't seem to have many effective countermeasures, excluding others with the Talent, compared to all the programs you can load up into your chrome to keep it safe. I'd happily pay 15k to give myself a magical defense against ''mind hackers'' in the SR world, especially if I worked for a corp, and especially if I was a security guard.

Or did I skip over a piece of equipment? I've got to be wrong, so what am I missing?

[Draco18s]

There is no similar protection from a mage, sadly. However, I am of the opinion that the mind control spells need to be removed. Suggestion and Influence are OK though, although need some tweaking (they should be compulsions that you get composure tests to resist, though it might not be obvious why you have a sudden craving for fudge and act on it anyway...)

By fluff they are highly illegal spells ("mind rape") but there's nothing actually stopping a PC from having or using the spells in question.

[Nyost Akasuke]

I agree. Control Thoughts is a pretty ridiculous spell, in terms of use and power.

[Possession Mage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, or if I've somehow got this backwards, but at the cost of one round of action, and maybe some stun damage, an enemy mage could conceivably have complete control over everything you do, not just your cyberarms or legs.

My brief forray into a mind control mage makes me think this is slightly incorrect. It doesn't cost the mage an action per round. The force of mind control dictates how many rounds until the person can attempt to break free again. F5 control would mean complex action for the mage to gain control...then the "possessee" would do as told for 5 rounds then try again. If they fail again...another 5 rounds. Yes, much more powerful than Hacking options and a good observation. If you are willing to roll the stun for group control too...just nasty.

[Nyost Akasuke]

Oh, I meant that it takes about one round of action for the mage to pull off the spell. Spending one 'round' to cast Control Thoughts, and gain possession over the target. Then, afterwards, it's a Simple Action to issue commands, correct?