=)



Now that that's outta the way. I'm playing around with the character concept of a combat hacker. From my understanding, when most people think of combat hacker, they think of a hacker who has enough physical ability and skill to contribute to and/or survive a firefight. While this character should certainly be able to accomplish such, I'm more interested in the applications of hacking towards a combat scenario. The common example of hacking a cyberlimb to interfere and/or redirect attacks comes to mind as an example. So, what I'm looking for is other ideas or scenarios where hacking would be useful or taking out opponents, or otherwise aiding the runner team in a combat situation. Really, I'm trying to gauge whether there's enough reason and uses for this concept to be worth making.

- Is this concept practical from chargen? What attributes, skills, and equipment would aid the concept? Can the build be sturdy enough at the game's start to be able to accomplish the general idea without ridiculously large dice pools, and function in a way that's beneficial to the group as a whole? Can it be done without sacrificing any core hacking skills (which I doubt)?

- What race/''class'' combinations would be ideal? Would a Hacker have an easier time accomplishing this than a 'Mancer would? My information on Technomancers is lacking, as it's been a while since I've read Unwired, but the Mesh Reality echo comes to mind as something potentially useful

- In what ways can hacking be utilized to injure or kill enemy opponents? (Such as the whole cyberarm deal)

- In what ways can hacking be utilized to grant an extra advantage to the runner team during combat? (Such as hacking enemy TacNets or taking control of a security system)

- In what ways can hacking debilitate or render useless enemy combatants? (Such as hacking smartlinks to provide false information, or do that biofeedback sensory overload thing I simply can't seem to remember what to call)

I'm in need of ideas. If any of you have been through a similar situation, or have other information that could contribute to the idea, I'd greatly appreciate it. If for some reason this isn't very practical, and you have reasons for saying that, that would be a big help as well. =) As well, if this subject has been covered already, a link would be wonderful and I can skip off to reading rainbow and leave you all to your devices.

Gracias.

Most security guards should have wireless access points in cyberware turned off (especially if they're any good). You can easily turn it back on for the 3-month checkup or after its been damaged. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30819

You could turn off the lights, activate the fire suppression system. Retreat and hack doors to lock? The things you've suggested sound good (although again most cyberware should have its wireless access points turned off if the guards are any good).

Use the environment. Cars are driven electronically, and have wireless on (if only to connect to gridguide). Crash one on top of your enemies, odds are it'll hurt.

Work with the mage... make the water sprinklers in the fire suppression system kick off over top of the opposition right before the mage casts a lightning bolt/ball spell on them...

Creative use of the environment will make even the wimpiest of characters exceedingly lethal.

Psst... did you notice the bad guys guarding the inside of the server room and the HALON fire suppression system in there? Hehehe...

Hacking cyber (no guard or shadowrunner in their right mind would leave the wireless on, or even have a wireless antenna for this exact reason)
Hacking cars (might as well steal them, see the "stealing cars is more profitable" problem)
Hacking smartlink (assumes that the gun is hackable when the cyberarm holding is not, see first line)
Hacking comlinks and flooding the target with distracting noise/visuals (tops 1 simple action stolen from the target--turn off the comlink/earbuds/display glasses--for a cost of 2 or more complex actions: at least 1 to hack past the firewall, and at least 1 to command the device)
Hacking comlink and forcing the user into VR where you can hit them with Black IC (requires that the target be capable of VR and various other issues, such as spending more complex actions than the target spends disengaging)
Hacking drones (easier to use your own or just destroy it: drones are not that durable)

Long story short: anything that you could do to be a "combat hacker" is less effective than picking up a mother f*cking gun.

Compare: assume any of the above takes EXACTLY 3 complex actions: 2 to hack, 1 to command and that you have 3 IPs in VR space and 1 meat.

You can:
Turn off a guy's arm/leg (or shot him for 8P* six times)
Turn a guy over with a car (+1 Complex action for the vehicle to reach the target) (or shot him for 8P eight times)
Give the target a -2 to shooting you because he lost his smartlink bonus (or shoot him for 8P six times)
Distract the target (-2 to all actions for 1 IP) (or shoot him six times)
Spend 3 IPs forcing him into VR and then beating him up with black IC (or shoot him for 8P six plus number of rounds hit with black IC times)
Gaining control of a drone (or shooting it for 8P six times)

I don't know about you, but shooting for 8P six times seems...oddly better in every scenario I can think of.

*5P heavy pistol +3 net hits, 6P rifle +2 net his, 5P gun +1 explosive +2 net hits, 5P +2 ex-ex + 1 net hit....

Creative use of the hacking examples can be better. Especially if you're trying not to kill everyone in sight (in a chase an they have more than one vehicle? hack one to crash it into another of their own vehicles).

But it all depends on the situation. There certainly will be times that shooting your enemy many times for 8P each will be better than hacking something for a distraction.

There's nothing wrong with creative uses for hacking, but because they are entirely situational they are almost always less effective than using a gun.

The problem is that players try to use creative hacking to kill people and that's not what hacking is for.

Except maybe this last one, because hey, free drone. Why spend your own nuyen on gear?

It really doesn't matter if it's better than a gun. Hacking is the do-everything in 2070. It's cool, fun, flexible. Enjoy, 'nuff said.

That one is likely the only one where hacking is actually the better option, and really, it should be that way.

Another important difference between combat hacking vs. shooting them in the face is that the first doesn't necessarily make them aware of you yet.

You can hack a group of guards' comlinks and set up a script that fills their audio/video input with lots of noise/static, trigger them all at the same moment, THEN shoot them all in the face.

And also, since most of the time your gonna have your smartlink/smartgun combo slaved to your com, as soon as you get their com, you get the smartlink/gun. Eject their clips, activate advanced safety or anti-theft systems.

And remember, you don't necessarily have to do this DURING combat. set it up before it starts...assuming you can begin the engagement on your terms. Imagine the reactions of a patrol of guards when you hack all their smartgun systems and have all their sidearms empty their clips while still in their holsters.

See OP:

An ambush is still a combat situation.

One thing of note is that wireless signals ignore cover. So if you're engaged in a firefight in, say, a warehouse, where opponents are hidden or not visible, or otherwise behind significant cover, the hacker should still be able to find/access their commlinks (though it may be difficult, depending on their sniffer abilities).

Once hacked, that hacker should be able to relay the opponents locations to friends for indirect fire, ambushes, flanks, etc., as well as A/V distractions, false information, disabling of weaponry, misfires, etc.

Thinking of misfires, could a hacker trigger an airburst linked grenade launcher to fire at 0 range, disabling any safeties?

Thanks everyone. =)

Turning off the lights might be a good idea, especially if the runner team has some sort of vision modification or enhancement through cyber eyes or glasses or something. Then again, how common is it for security guards to possess things like, say, thermographic vision? Activating the fire suppression system is a good one I didn't see coming.

Taking control of a vehicle during pursuit or something would be handy, 'course, so long as I'm not trying to multitask driving and hacking. Synergistic use of hacking with other members of the team (water sprinklers + mage), to give an advantage, is definitely something I'd like to do with this character concept.

Draco18s has a good point. There are a lot of situations where firing the gun would be better, especially if any sort of stealth or ''low-keyness'' is compromised or not needed. Of course, this character isn't just some guy with commlinks on him like bling who hacks everything, he's gonna be built to fire a gun (or two) should the situation arise. I'm not planning on having a guy who can walk down the hall, make cybered security guards shoot themselves in the faces while the hacked security system murders everyone in the building, with said guy carrying nothing but a commlink. Isn't that what mind mages are for? =P

A combination of what ZeroPoint and Erastosthenes said gave me the idea in the first place. In a situation where enemy combatants have a technological edge over you (in terms of equipment, or just more men to use that equipment), in which my ''combat hacker'' may not have the best physical attributes and skill levels to be able to hold his ground in a firefight. Since he's a hacker, he would hack stuff to turn the tide in his (and his team's) favor. Ejecting clips was a neat idea I should've included, but can a hacker really make a gun misfire? I assume, maybe, if it was all electronic but....

That would suck to be holding a gun with some explosive rounds, only to have an enemy hacker insult you by blowing you fingers to bits when you pull the trigger.

well, you probably couldn't cause a gun to missfire unless safety controls on the system were connected to the smartgun system. Most likely they would be an electronicly closed system in relation to the "smart" system. so Hacking the smartgun couldn't allow you to send the fire command at a lower voltage than is needed to fire caseless electronic firing weapons, leading to missfires. but as to the airburst, you should be able to override that system since it is tied to the smartgun system. would probably take more than a few rounds though. I'm away from my books right now so I'm not sure what the existing test is to modify that.

My understanding of cyberware is that it NEEDS a commlink (or some kind of computer) to process it. By default, they DO broadcast (signal 0). Players can choose to get rid of this but would need a commlink in their head with absolutely no signal (not even 0!) to represent a wired link so the limb is non hackable. If there was even a signal 0, and the runner had another commlink (you need to have one running to stay in contact with your team, even if in hidden, +4 threshold to spot I beleive) they could daisy chain through that to hack said limb.

Having played a hacker a lot, I see the negative effect on the team when I run a game. There are very few missions where a hacker will not be useful, and creative use of them is half the fun of the game for me. Not only can you open and shut the doors, take over automated defences and get pay data while sitting 3km away in your chameleon coated van but you can use your own drones for combat when the needs arise. Stealth(spydrones), combat(large combat drone....flying drones....), get-away(who doesn't take a good pilot skill when rigging!) and wetwork(exploding pigeon anyone?). Surely one of the most versatile and fun builds in the SR world!

Oh...and have you seen how easy it is to hack vehicles/commlinks? Even with good security it's not usually too hard.

I'd think even an electronic airburst grenade would still contain a mechanical safety that simply won't allow detonation before the grenade has travelled a set distance, like they do today.

Your understanding is flawed not supported by the rules or the previous editions cyberware worked just fine prior to the wireless matrix I can see no reason for it to stop working and require an outside connection just because hacker's are along for the ride.

The game went for three editions without such a requirement, and no such requirement is explicitly stated in the fourth edition rules. What the rules do say (SR4A, p.338), is that "most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions," in other words the circuitry that lets your body control your cybereyes or cyberarms or what have you, and receive sensory data back from them is built right in -- any wireless functionality is additional on top of that, and not required for normal operation. This is further supported by text in Augmentation (p.28) that states that security-minded cyber users typically only turn on wireless functionality in controlled settings, and text in Unwired (p.102) that states that some "external" implants such as cyberlimbs offer up dedicated maintenance jacks in lieu of a wireless connection.

Quoted from page 102 of unwired:

"The Signal rating of internal implants tends to be low (usually 0), meaning that a hacker needs to be in close range. Such implants are often slaved to the character’s commlink, however, so a hacker who infiltrates the master node can access slaved implants (see Slaving, p. 55)."

On checking the SR4 book, yes, I agree with runner paul, this does seem to contradict, but as unwired came later (tho not later than A) I assumed it was "overwriting".

Edit: Page 31 of augmentation additional explains the wireless nature of the DNI.

For most cybernetics, the wireless is there solely for diagnostics, not actual control. Why would a cyberarm need outside control, when it has a DNI? That said, the wireless capabilities could be used to, say, shut the limb down for diagnostics tests (or otherwise disable it). But I wouldn't go so far as to see a hacker being able to use the cyberlimb to strangle the owner.

For Cybereyes/Ears/etc., I could see the cyberware having wireless so as to transmit the data they take in (as if they were a sensor) to something else, but control should still be via DNI.

With regards to hacking a gun to misfire, if it's modded with electronic firing and a smartgun system, I see no reason not to allow it to be fired remotely, or by a hacker.

Which, TBH, is stupid. If it hadn't been slaved it would have a signal range of 3m. By slaving it, it gains the signal range of the comlink.
(Except that the comlink would act as a universal router for the limb anyway because the wireless matrix is retarded)

Yes, I would agree with that, but the ominous example given in unwired is...

"Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or even the cyberlimbed character."

Entirely, it does suggest that most cyberarms shouldn't be hacked on re-checking, but also gives it as an example of what to hack. Common sense, I think, should win the day in this situation. I wouldn't allow someone to hack a cyberarm, I would assume it needed no software update (it's not like you need to update the software so it's able to make new movements!) and so could not be hacked. Some GM's would allow it though, so if you plan to use it, consult your GM on how it works in his world!

Allowing hackable cyber leads to situations where players hack NPC cyber left and right to the point at which a PC is "rigging" a metahuman against their will and without a stirrup interface.
("He's got two cyberlegs? Awesome, I command the legs to walk him up to the vault...")

Slaving to your commlink should be safe, because your commlink should be properly protected. I don't think it's a good idea, in a whizzy cyberpunk game, to say things like 'the limb can't be controlled', etc. It's kind of the whole point.

But what do you possibly gain by slaving your arm to you comlink? If someone named me one single benefit to connecting your cyberarm to your pan I might consider it, but as it stands there is none, just a whole pacel of risks and the very real possibility your very limbs might be turned against you, which is utter bull.

How is your commlink "safe"? You have to actually buy a decent comm first, which most people don't do, and then you have to load it up with 3 or 4 (good) expensive programs.

A player will be able to do this most of the time, but NPCs? Doubtful that every security guard ever runs a R5 agent, R5 Armor, and R5 IC on his R5 comlink with an R5 firewall. It's just retarded. You shouldn't need to buy $15,000 worth of software to protect your arm from being hacked.

While I have pointed out that the rules do allow, and even suggest it, I am 100% against being able to do it. My living character rolls 18 dice in a probe attempt and is running stealth 6 armor 6. Unless someone else is REALLY prepared for me, I can and will destroy their commlinks. A TM could do it with even more dice. Commlinks are NOT sare, period. Best way is to sit on signal 0 so people have to be next to you to hack (or daisy chain thru someone with higher signal that is next to you). There are alternate methods to communicate with your team on a run, and they aren't even that expensive.

If someone is that into VR, it's just as easy for that person to get a Samurai drone with a ingram white knight. Cheap and effective way to join in the combat. However, that said, as a GM I always advise talking through "powerful tactics" with your GM. They may not want you to do it as it would detract from the game. If you let your GM know you are entirely a hacker (not rigging at all) they may even accomodate that so you aren't useless in fights. It's a game and all about fun, right?

I think I said "should be safe" and "should be properly protected". Are you saying it shouldn't be safe?

I wasn't talking about NPCs. Neither did I say that you *have* to slave your cyberware. However, the alternatives are having your cyberware be a (very weak) node by itself, removing the 'ware from your PAN (with *potential* losses in options), and skinlinking.

While we're focusing on cyberlimbs for some reason, lots of 'ware benefits from being PAN'd. A plain old replacement limb might not, and you're not *forced* to do so. Why are you whining about something you don't have to do?

We already know that technomancers are insane, and mundane runner hackers are also able to do some amazing things. They're shadowrunners; that's the whole *point*. That's no reason to fundamentally alter the setting.

Just to point out a set of rules I wrote up in an attempt to get hacking to work a little better. It would solve the "out of chargen pwns Renraku servers" characters, as it would be impossible for a character to start with the best equipment (rating 6/6/6/6 commlink) and pushing up the level that a non-hacker would be willing to spend money on (for example: signal very unimportant, 1; firewall important, 4; system unimportant, 2, response unimportant, 2 --> cost 3600). It's still hackable but would put up a defense against moderate hackers.

My write up needs a few tweaks still, but I haven't gotten around to it yet (for example, I intended for a hacker can only control 1 node at any given time, so you can't hack "all of their comlinks" you can only hack one of them, if you leave and hack another you lose control of the first one, but I don't think I actually wrote that down). But the most important change, that programs are "free" and that hardware is what's statistically important (and hard to acquire!) really helps balance things out (a rating 6/6/6/6 comm would cost 61800! Or almost twice what your current hacker needs to spend to be untracable*).

*Tops you need four programs:
Stealth
Exploit
Spoof
Armor
Though Decrypt, Databomb, and Defuse also come in handy.
So assuming R6 on all of them, and all of them are Hacking programs, and assuming you buy all 7 that costs you a mere 42,000. Spoof you could go cheaper (R4) and Databomb you could drop all together, and skim down to 29,000. Armor is only necessary to survive long enough to get out of any cybercombats that you get into because you got observed, but if you think you can forgo that you can slim down another 6,000. Common use programs (every single one) at R6 totals all of about
8,000 (I've forgotten how much exactly), which is excessive (you don't need all of them).

That's the problem, ware being able to be hacked is a fundamental alteration of the setting. Logically there are things you may want to put in your pan to get benefits of, your cyber eyes perhaps, your ears ditto, your arm? Why?

Er? Typo? Ware is hackable by the setting.

I meant between editions in previous editions there was no practical way to hack a persons cyberware now by the somewhat soft and funky hacking rules supposedly everyone hooks their ware up to their pan for seemingly no other purpose then to make it hackable.

In SR 2, no, it wasn't. Not without walking up to it with a wire hanging out of your head and asking the pissed off troll very nicely to let you hook that thing into his arm. I agree and allow any character to completely disable wifi for cyberware and consider it 'old school', where there is no wireless, period. They DNI it just like they did in the old days, and there's a nice jack to hook in a wifi signal if you needed to. It does mean you're not recording your eyesight/hearing without head-data-storage, if you take that route, but that's a different story.

What says that the rating 5 node that the security guard's equipment gets slaved to is an individually owned commlink strapped to his belt? It'd be much more cost effective for one of the building's nodes to serve the same purpose.

Um, you *can* disable the wireless, as I said. And, as people have pointed out, there are various great reasons *not* to. I don't see how this messes up the game. The whole point of cyberpunk is ability/security tradeoffs.

This the way I design systems for corporations my runners go against the downside is of course that once they've suberted the security node they own everything at once, although that can simplify and save a lot of rolls so it's almost a good thing from a GM perspective.

Hey Lurker, have you figured out the slaved to a slaved node rules? Specifically, cybereyes/ears from the guards slaved to the comm which is then slaved to the spyder node? Curious how that layering actually works out.

Assuming you can do that, it should just forward everything to the last Master. I don't think it would save on Subscription limits, though, because the Master is still processing as many subsidiary nodes either way.

Well, in this case, you would likely register the commlink (assuming you ARE having it control the cyberware) to a parent node. In shadowrun, this means you MUST go through the parent node to get to the child (the security guards commlink). It doesn't give you auto success, it's just an extra level.

I am pretty sure (I will check up in a little) that this means no matter the signal, you can't hack the commlink at all without going thru the buildings node (not logical in the real world, but then a lot of things in shadowrun aren't when you look at it).

The most important thing if you do want to guard against this, is Analyse! This is what spots when someone is breaking in. Get an agent...have it run analyse non stop. So long as you have the same or less programs running as your commlinks response, it will scan every time. Firewall is also important to detect them on probe attempts (the initial check). Both of these together make it at least more likely you will spot the hacker and can react from there.

Just to be clear, *slaving* automatically and completely forwards connections to the Master. There's no 'hacking your way through multiple layers'.

Personally, and there's nothing explicitly about this is the rules AFAIK, I agree that you could slave the 'ware to the personal comm, hidden-mode connect the personal comm to the central node, and *then* hacking the central node would mean you still had to hack the personal comm. I think.

My mistake, I wasn't catching the full context.

While I totally agree with this statement, I feel compelled to ask. How much can you buy that will protect you from a Mage's Control Actions? Influence? Control Thoughts? Correct me if I'm wrong, please, or if I've somehow got this backwards, but at the cost of one round of action, and maybe some stun damage, an enemy mage could conceivably have complete control over everything you do, not just your cyberarms or legs. I suppose there's something to be said for resisting the spell, but a large enough dice pool and really, it takes some luck to not fall under the power of those spells. A Hacker has to somehow connect to the cyberware target first, then go do his hacking mumbo jumbo to take control of the arm. Not quite sure how many rounds that might take, can't recall offhand since I'm still very inexperienced, but even a somewhat decent firewall or IC program can delay a hacker for a while, right? I mean, did I miss some sort of MC? Magical Countermeasure? That you can load up into your brain so street punks don't hex you into walking into traffic? Is there a Black Hammer program I missed for spells and the astral plane?

Hmm... MC Hammer.

Just throwin' it out there. I agree that it sucks to have to pay a gripload of nuyen to protect your limbs, but the abilities a mind mage possesses don't seem to have many effective countermeasures, excluding others with the Talent, compared to all the programs you can load up into your chrome to keep it safe. I'd happily pay 15k to give myself a magical defense against ''mind hackers'' in the SR world, especially if I worked for a corp, and especially if I was a security guard.

Or did I skip over a piece of equipment? I've got to be wrong, so what am I missing?

There is no similar protection from a mage, sadly. However, I am of the opinion that the mind control spells need to be removed. Suggestion and Influence are OK though, although need some tweaking (they should be compulsions that you get composure tests to resist, though it might not be obvious why you have a sudden craving for fudge and act on it anyway...)

By fluff they are highly illegal spells ("mind rape") but there's nothing actually stopping a PC from having or using the spells in question.

I agree. Control Thoughts is a pretty ridiculous spell, in terms of use and power.

My brief forray into a mind control mage makes me think this is slightly incorrect. It doesn't cost the mage an action per round. The force of mind control dictates how many rounds until the person can attempt to break free again. F5 control would mean complex action for the mage to gain control...then the "possessee" would do as told for 5 rounds then try again. If they fail again...another 5 rounds. Yes, much more powerful than Hacking options and a good observation. If you are willing to roll the stun for group control too...just nasty.

Oh, I meant that it takes about one round of action for the mage to pull off the spell. Spending one 'round' to cast Control Thoughts, and gain possession over the target. Then, afterwards, it's a Simple Action to issue commands, correct?