Oh, yes, I misunderstood sorry. But you have to assume the mage isn't going to issue commands all the time. So long as the target has a reasonable logic(not always the case...I know) it should be able to interpret the mages wishes so he doesn't need to. But yes, he could issue a command every round as a simple(worth noting that it doesn't state these commands are verbal, and I think it likely they are not).

I think we should all agree that Hacking should not be judged against magic, especially not control thoughts.

I believe so, based on the last time it came up in my group.

Likewise, Erase Memory is Force in months between attempts. You make someone forget with a F6 mind wipe and they're gone. By the time they recover their real memories your long gone and they've already provided their testimony.

I just thought that, for a virtually similar effect, hacking cyberware isn't as big a deal as hacking someone's body or mind completely with magic. =P
Nice sig by the way.

@ Possession Mage: Indeed. There's many possible things to do with someone under your control, who does anything you say (or think?) for only a Simple Action. My Mind Mage would attempt a Decrease Willpower spell on the target, through a sustaining focus, before casting Control Thoughts. =) Yay for potential long-term slavery.

@ Draco18s: Good thing Hackers can't erase your brain.

Attempting to hop back on topic here, is there anything else anyone can think of, for hacking, that would assist the combat situation? =)
Maybe something against enemy mages, since we're kinda on the subject?

Edit: Even if they are highly situational. Never know when you might be stuck in that same scenario.

Well, if the mage has a commlink and you can hack it, you could make it play an annoying sound at him to distract him from spellcasting If they have glasses/contacts with AR, you could block people from line of sight by AR'ing a black block in the way (be careful with this...if I GM allows this, why wouldn't it work the other way? Do a simple IFF(identify friend or foe) system and have it block friends...then your stunball won't affect them!).

You could also get a directional jammer to stop all comms, a party that can't talk isn't effective. Er...will think of more if I can.

Hm. So does that mean that if a hacker shut down all the lights, a human mage wouldn't be able to cast a spell? I was under the impression that the LOS was determined by potential more than actuality. Meaning, if you COULD see the target, the spell would work, and as such things like low-light areas, sunglasses, etc. wouldn't impede the sorcery process at all. Do you actually have to have the target in your direct line of sight, or is it just within the area, as a whole, in which you could directly see in normal lighting circumstances?

If he was wearing image-link'd sunglasses, and it was spammed with ads and black blocks.. that really impedes the LOS? Maybe I should re-read sorcery.

To my knowledge the line of sight must be optical not electronic, unless payed for with essence through cyber eyes, which would affect magic. Some upgrades are optical. I know magnification can be optical, I am not sure about the others. I always thought that perception enhancements would work, maybe low light, Image link, and flare comp, as I think of them as overlays to your natural vision.

Sorry I don't have the page numbers

edit: Yes a mage that can't see you can't hit you with a spell. if you are out of sight behind cover, and a mage cast an area affect spell, unless it is an elemental spell that makes a physical effect, you won't be affected. Also at least in the older rules cover modifiers affect you as well.

Situationally, hackers can cause a lot of effects about the battlefield, or via disrupting the enemy.

Engaging system security, opening/closing/locking doors, fire suppression systems, alarms, lights, environmental effects (HVAC), cameras (tracking enemies), PA systems, etc. What they can do really depends on where they are. In the middle of a field or a jungle, they're probably limited. In an office building? Probably quite a bit.

Vs. enemies, besides the AR distractions, they can spoof false commands/communications, display false information to a tacnet/subvert said tacnet, disable smart-weapon systems, disable an opponents technical advantages.

Turning out all the lights, then disabling the enemy's vision enhancements? Huge boon to your side.

Cause each member of a corp-sec team to display fellow members as being out of action (via spoofed biomonitor feedback)? Potential morale breaker. Spoof inter-party commands, or spurious tactical data (He's over here! No, over here!) to sow confusion. Spoof commands to not engage, fall back, or not to use lethal force, etc.

That corp sec mil-spec armor has an auto-injector? Let's engage it...OD them on the combat drug of choice, or just fill them full of meds/opiates.

Well, behind cover I understand. But I mean like, if you are standing directly infront of the mage, and he can see you with his eyes. Then, if you block out his vision (either by spamming his sunglasses, contact lens, turning out the lines, etc), he then cannot cast the spell? I mean, technically, you're still in his line of sight, even though he can't see you. I was under the impression that under that sort of scenario, a spell would still be possible to cast.

@ Eratosthenes: Thanks. Lotsa good suggestions, like the auto-injector =) I think I might start making a list of these somewhere and write 'em down for future reference and/or use.

My understanding of LOS is that you actually have to see (except in the case of spells like fireball which physically create the ball). Arguably, a mage could use a toilet tube to limit sight and cast "ball" spells of type M. This is the way I have understood it, tho it's not something I would ever be happy seeing in actual play as it does feel like an abuse. If it didn't work this way, the fibre optic mage security thing wouldn't work.

Assuming you can't actually help in the combat, there are still things you can be doing like getting an overview and video feeds, then do a little liberal editing to make it look like your team are innocent etc. If I have nothing to do, I state I am watching for signals being sent. You can intercept and even edit them real time...see who the call for help is going to.

Most people will have AR going to some degree. Wouldn't it be annoying if the area was spamming adverts on AR but not to your team?

Hmm. Alrighty then. I'll hafta remember that. =)

Thanks all!

The magician has to actually see the target, not just have an uninterrupted space to them. Maybe it's some sort of confidence/meta-physical limitation: unless the magician is 100% certain the target is there, they cannot cast something at them.

Note that they can cast at something they cannot see, if they can touch it. Maybe if the creature had echolocation, they could use that to target their magic as well.

I think the magician basically has to know where the person is - not just guess - in order to make a magical link to them to cast a spell at them.

It's been discussed, and while some people think "yes" it means that a mage can target things using Ultrasound and by extension Ultra Wideband Radar (meaning they can target through walls).

So the by RAW understanding is that echolocation is not "sight" and therefore doesn't qualify. However a GM-fiat awakened bat magician that can target through walls is generally seen as a "really nifty twist" that would be a bitch of a critter to fight, but a one-off thing.

Yea, I figured it'd been discussed a lot here.

I was thinking more along the lines of creatures that rely on their hearing, not sight, as their primary sense. I think there was a thread or discussion about blind mages. The awakened bat-shapeshifter enemy is a pretty nifty idea! I'm not sure about targeting through walls (as wouldn't the sound reflect off the walls?), but around corners potentially. But that's probably grist for a whole other (slew of) threads.

I think my original concept (when it came up) was an awakened bat (not a shifter) that got UWB radar implanted so it could "see" through walls in a similar manner to its natural sense (UWB radar and echolocation use the same principle though with different mediums) and thus could target spells with it.

It bends the rules in that echolocation can be used to target spells (and would be functionally identical to LOS) and then "upgrading" it to UWB radar.

As a mission, I'd suspect that the bat would have its limits (such as only casting through barriers with lower than some threshold of barrier rating), etc. But it'd be a tough fight.

Even in Darkness, a mage can switch to Astral Perception and still cast a spell at you, assuming that they still had LOS otherwise... so that will really not work...

Keep the Faith

Well, it forces them to do so.

Why would a professional guarding something have his wireless on? he can seriously just turn 'hacking' to 'off' and he is just going to do that.

at no penalty even (Other visibility modifiers notwithstanding, of course)...

Keep the Faith

Indeed... anyone with active wirelessly enabled cyber is just asking for trouble; especially when you can just turn off the wirelsss to avoid the situation entirely...

Keep the Faith

...

http://i46.tinypic.com/2exbx1s.png

Why does this switch exist?

No. It forces them to switch to Astral, be open to astral, and the min penalty is -2. *shrug*. It's not nothing.

For the same reason I don't blow my phone up, but instead leave it at the door when I go into the NOC. Nor do I set my cameras on fire, I just don't take the work.

It might very well be convenient to have hacking set to 'on' when you're getting a checkup or having some maintenance work done after hours, but as a credible security professional you're not going to have it on when it poses a risk. For example, many security conscious places disable the capability to connect USB drives to computers in secure facilities. This is setting hacking to 'off' - but no doubt, USB drives are useful elsewhere, just like mobile phones and cameras

This is the fundamental problem with the SR hacking rules. People are supposed to not set hacking to off because of convenience. But even today I am forbidden from always carrying my convenient phone or using a convenient file transfer mechanism because of the security risks, and I don't even work in the end of town that has armed guards.

No doubts that the drawbacks of such a situation do exist, but for casting of spells, there is still no penalty... the -2 penalty only applies to tasks not magical in nature...

Keep the Faith

The problem with everyone switching off their commlink all the time is the way it is portrayed in shadowrun. Peoples commlinks are their lives. Switch it off and they lose AR, they can't call their mates, or play minesweeper. They can't recieve the information as to when their shift is over, or check the time. They can lower their signal, yes, but most people WANT to stay connected to some kind of network, and as soon as that is the case, you have a route to hack through.

Plus, it'd be boring and lame if you couldn't hack anything. High-level security is harder, that's all. You're the GM, make it harder.

Really? Neato. I always thought that Astral Perception was a ''Sixth Sense'' that didn't necessarily qualify as sight, sound, etc.
But I guess that's kinda cool.

Just because you have a comlink active, it does not mean that your cyberware is hooked into the PAN...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

My cyberarm lets me play AR solitaire? My cyberlung lets me check the time?

You're thinking about the wrong switch.

We've already covered this: so turn it off. That doesn't mean all cyber, and it doesn't mean you can't hack people. It's the whole point of cyberpunk. There will be people who don't secure their gear, and people who do.

I agree, sorry, i missed the part about cyberware at that point. Thought it had moved on somewhat

The problem when it comes to comlinks is that there is no "secure" setting. You're either hackable in a fraction of a second or you're hackable in 10 seconds. Its far easier to hack something than it is to secure it from hacking which really moves hacking from the "dramatic conflict" section of a game to the "routine annoyance" category.*

*I'd come up with a comparison to That Other Game, but "checking for traps" doesn't really have dramatics to it. If the door isn't trapped the players are surprised (and have a Timber Rogue open it anyway). The closes I could come is:

"I check the room for traps"
You don't find any.
"I enter the room"
You get hit by the trap on the ceiling, which you didn't check.
"..."
Next room:
"I check all surfaces in the room for traps. That means the ceiling. And I do this for every room I enter every time, and it goes without saying, because that was cheap."

wireless has its bennies and i can see people running around with it turned on most of the time. but if your going to break into a secret headquarters or do something else illegal its nice to have the option to turn it off to.