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> Rules Q's, Subduing, Suppression Fire, Illusion Spells, and more
Octopiii
post May 21 2010, 03:27 AM
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Over the course of a few sessions I've picked up quite a few rules questions. Perhaps Dumpshock can help out.

Subduing:

By RAW, if an attacker succeeds on his Subdual attack the defender needs to roll Strength + Unarmed with a threshold of Attacker's net hits on the subdual attack. If the defender doesn't meet the threshold, he doesn't break free. However, as far as I can tell, there is no way for the defender to reduce this threshold: he either beats it, or he remains stuck; there is no way for him to reduce the threshold. As an example, a character in my game completely screwed his defense roll, while the NPC rocked his - 9 net hits. There was no way for the PC to realistically break free with such a high threshold, even though he subsequently got 4 success and then another 4 successes. The attacker can spend an action to increase his grip and increase the threshold; shouldn't the defender's struggles to break free reduce the threshold similarly?

Suppression Fire:

By RAW, you make a blank attack test which becomes the threshold to dodge. Anyone currently within the suppressed zone makes a Reaction + Edge test. The book states that this lasts until the Shooter's next action. What happened in my game was that the drone mounted mini-gun used suppressive fire, forcing the characters to make the threshold. Then, later in the pass, the characters acted, whereupon they needed to make another test, as the drone had not acted yet. The suppressive fire rules required the characters to make two tests, while the drone only needed to make one. This doesn't quite sit right with me; did I miss something?

Illusion Spells:

I have a hard time finding anything regarding what happens when a character interacts with an Illusion. In my game, the PCs were ambushed; the mage was the only one who made the perception check; he also managed to go first. He cast Phantasm, creating an illusion of a cement wall growing out of the ground to surround the PCs (and most likely preventing the TPK). I decided the NPC's wouldn't randomly shoot at a cement wall; one of the PCs, however, decided that it would be perfectly fine for his character to try drive through it. Obviously, his car went through with no problem; my question is, should I have made him do some sort of test to see if his character would be willing to drive through a cement barrier?

Healing:

Characters heal too fast. My team routinely goes from physical overflow to bouncing around just fine the very next day. Heal spells + first aid tests helped, but what they were really nailing was the Body x 2 test. I'm probably going to houserule that to a straight Body test; I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions.

Possession:

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm just houseruling it away. I'll grandfather in the current PC, but even with my houseruled nerf to ItNW, possession is too... well, not gamebreaking, but just obnoxious.

Manhandling People/Drones/Etc:

On of the PC's wanted to flip over a drone. I decided it would be a subdual roll (to grab) and then next turn a Str + Bod check. Has anyone had any other similar issues? How have you decided on it?
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HappyDaze
post May 21 2010, 04:05 AM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 10:27 PM) *
Possession:

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm just houseruling it away. I'll grandfather in the current PC, but even with my houseruled nerf to ItNW, possession is too... well, not gamebreaking, but just obnoxious.

I disagree - it's both obnoxious and gamebreaking! But you already knew my feelings on it.
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Banaticus
post May 21 2010, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 08:27 PM) *
There was no way for the PC to realistically break free with such a high threshold...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_M6HmrekvI Once you've been put in what's called a "cradle", there's really no way to break free unless you have super strength compared to the other guy. You're put in a position where your muscles are at their most ineffective and where the other person's muscles have the freedom to fully act. If you "really" grappled someone, they're not really going anywhere until you let them go. That being said, if the other person tries for a better grip, then the defender gets a chance to reduce the threshold.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 08:27 PM) *
The book states that this lasts until the Shooter's next action. What happened in my game was that the drone mounted mini-gun used suppressive fire, forcing the characters to make the threshold. Then, later in the pass, the characters acted, whereupon they needed to make another test, as the drone had not acted yet. The suppressive fire rules required the characters to make two tests, while the drone only needed to make one. This doesn't quite sit right with me; did I miss something?

That's how it works. "Characters in the suppressed area who do not move, remain behind full cover, or simply drop prone are not at risk." So, how to get past that. Grenades or thrown weapons. Smartguns all (by RAW) have integrated cameras -- tip the gun around the corner and start shooting at the drone. Summon more drones. Use magic. Push whatever you're hiding behind forward. Get someone else to try to take out the drone, then use their body as improvised ballistic armor. Hack the drone.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 08:27 PM) *
...one of the PCs, however, decided that it would be perfectly fine for his character to try drive through [the illusion of a cement wall].

Did the character know that it was an illusion? If it stopped NPCs, then it should have stopped the PC, unless he was metagaming (less karma for him in that case). Does he ordinarily drive through walls? Maybe make a random test to see which wall he drives through. Tacnets are great for communicating this kind of information.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 08:27 PM) *
My team routinely goes from physical overflow to bouncing around just fine the very next day. Heal spells + first aid tests helped, but what they were really nailing was the Body x 2 test.

Well, that extended test has a 1 day time. The rules say, "The character must rest for the entire day for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness also count)." So, they can't take damage on Wednesday and be fine on Thursday, they at least need to wait until Friday. In my experience, if you have a day of down time, you usually have all the downtime you need to recover, but when things are going hot and heavy you can't really get a day of down time without missing the window of opportunity (in my experience).
QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 08:27 PM) *
Possession

"The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the hostís knowledge, skills, or experience. The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration." "In this case, the conjurer is aware of the spiritís actions (he still perceives through his body), but he has only indirect control rather than direct motor control." "The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the hostís knowledge, skills, or experience." It seems like someone who conjures a spirit to possess them should lose access to their physical skills, as they don't have direct motor control and the spirit who's in control of the body can't access the host's skills. So, only the spirits physical skills can be used. No summoning Force 1 spirits and using your level 6 Unarmed Attack.
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CeeJay
post May 21 2010, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 21 2010, 05:27 AM) *
Illusion Spells:
I decided the NPC's wouldn't randomly shoot at a cement wall; one of the PCs, however, decided that it would be perfectly fine for his character to try drive through it. Obviously, his car went through with no problem; my question is, should I have made him do some sort of test to see if his character would be willing to drive through a cement barrier?

Did the character (not the player) knew the wall was an illusion? If yes, than I don't think a test is needed.

QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 21 2010, 05:27 AM) *
Healing:
Characters heal too fast. My team routinely goes from physical overflow to bouncing around just fine the very next day. Heal spells + first aid tests helped, but what they were really nailing was the Body x 2 test. I'm probably going to houserule that to a straight Body test; I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions.

Healing times in SR are fast. As Banaticus pointed out, a whole day of rest is needed so at least 24 hours are gone, before the first damage box is healed. Also note, that all Stun damage has to be healed, before the healing of physcial damage can even start. If the body x2 dicepool size is a problem for you, you could also use the optional rule and apply the damage modifier to the healing rolls or use some of the modifiers from the Healing Modifiers Table.
But this will really affect low-body characters far more than ones with high body attributes who will still heal pretty fast.

QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 21 2010, 05:27 AM) *
On of the PC's wanted to flip over a drone. I decided it would be a subdual roll (to grab) and then next turn a Str + Bod check. Has anyone had any other similar issues? How have you decided on it?

Maybe just an attack to knockdown? Against the drone's body x2 as threshold, since drones usually don't have unarmed combat? But that really depends on the drone's size. A little body 1 ferret drone isn't weighing more than max. 10 kg, but flipping a steel lynx would totally call for a Str + Bod lifting test.

-CJ
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Saint Sithney
post May 21 2010, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 20 2010, 08:36 PM) *
That's how it works. "Characters in the suppressed area who do not move, remain behind full cover, or simply drop prone are not at risk." So, how to get past that. Grenades or thrown weapons. Smartguns all (by RAW) have integrated cameras -- tip the gun around the corner and start shooting at the drone. Summon more drones. Use magic. Push whatever you're hiding behind forward. Get someone else to try to take out the drone, then use their body as improvised ballistic armor. Hack the drone.


Drop prone and the suppressive fire is nullified. Firing from the prone position doesn't even carry the -1 penalty of firing from cover. Though, if any melee troops run up on you, they get a +3 to stomp you.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post May 21 2010, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 21 2010, 12:27 AM) *
Healing:

Characters heal too fast. My team routinely goes from physical overflow to bouncing around just fine the very next day. Heal spells + first aid tests helped, but what they were really nailing was the Body x 2 test. I'm probably going to houserule that to a straight Body test; I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions.


Take a look at the optional rules presented in Augmentation, there are plenty, one of the drops the bodyx2 to just body tests.
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PatB
post May 21 2010, 12:23 PM
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Suppression Fire: could be nasty, but one way to look at this is too slow down the fight ... especially if a SWAT team is coming. Also, it uses 20 bullets. That's only a single suppressive fire for SMGs, and maybe 2 for Rifles. After that, the guy needs to change clip or fire mode. Again, all time consuming (granted, all depending on smartlink).

Illusion spells: great assets to use when the mage casts *without* anyone to notice. If you see a wall coming out of the ground and you believe it's an illusion, then drive through it. No test needed. However, if you're trying to hit something behind that wall, apply modifiers as if the driver is blind because he's not seeing the target.

Illusions are great strategy spells. If the mage is obviously showing he's using illusions, he should have a plan in mind, like hidding something or using the illusion as a distraction, or to cover tracks, or to hid the direction the team is going, you name it. If the mage is simply popping out a cement wall from the ground, don't expect any opposition to believe it is real.

healing - just a reminder on RAW: First Aid must be applied before the Heal spell. Boxes that are not healed by First Aid cannot be healed again by First Aid. Boxes not healed by the Heal spell cannot be healed by either First Aid or another Heal spell. Also, healing takes time. Here's an example:
- Runner A has 8 boxes of physical damage.
- Runner B does First Aid and gets 2 Net Hits over the threshold. After 2 combat turns, Runner A is down to 6 boxes
- Runner C casts a Heal spell and gets 3 Net Hits. After 3 combat turns, Runner A is down to 3 boxes
- Later, Runner A suffers 1 additional box of physical damage - total 4 boxes. The next First Aid and Heal spell can only heal that box of damage. The other 3 boxes will have to be healed naturally using Body x2 per completed 24 hours

Hope this helps
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koogco
post May 21 2010, 05:52 PM
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Illusion Spells:
If the cement wall comes out of the floor in a realistic manner (im sure "optional" walls like that is used in some facilities) and the team does not see the mage casting the spell (or knows very little about magic), I would probably have them roll a perception check to see if they spot the illusion, if it is for some reason obvious to them, then they know ofc.
I would probably still ask for a composure test (1) to drive towards the illusion at speed. Unless you are used to driving into solid-looking things, ramming cement walls isnt exactly sane at a glance.


Healing:
Lets say someone has taken a total of 12P damage during a fight, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) knocking him out, and giving him a bit of overflow. He has 4 body, so he isnt dead, but he definatly needs help:
The team does the smart thing, applying first aid first (since magic would close the wounds in a way that renders first aid impossible): They manage to heal 3P
Then the mage takes his turn, managing to heal 4P
Our runner is now completely stable, but still have 5P damage to heal when he gets home.
Assuming complete peace for this: His 8 dice (bodyx2) allows him to heal an average of 2-3P per 24 hours, this leaves him with aruond 3 full days where he can do nothing more than resting and fluffing about at home.

Now, this wall all assuming decend rolls. Ofc it could be alot faster, or alot slower depending how things goes.
I think this is an appropriate amount of time for the game, sure, its not very realistic in comparison to the real world, but the real world doesnt feature magic healing like that anyway. The only issue I see with this system, is that the 9 body troll would have healed the remaning in a single day, which seems like too much of a difference to me.



Manhandling People/Drones/Etc:
Yeah, its one of those things that you just GM rule on the spot. Unless your runners uses this tactic consistently, in which case you would have to make a house rule on the subject (a grabling test and then a lifting test against half the drones weight comes to mind)
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DireRadiant
post May 21 2010, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 09:27 PM) *
Over the course of a few sessions I've picked up quite a few rules questions. Perhaps Dumpshock can help out.

Suppression Fire:

By RAW, you make a blank attack test which becomes the threshold to dodge. Anyone currently within the suppressed zone makes a Reaction + Edge test. The book states that this lasts until the Shooter's next action. What happened in my game was that the drone mounted mini-gun used suppressive fire, forcing the characters to make the threshold. Then, later in the pass, the characters acted, whereupon they needed to make another test, as the drone had not acted yet. The suppressive fire rules required the characters to make two tests, while the drone only needed to make one. This doesn't quite sit right with me; did I miss something?


The person firing suppression isn't firing at the the Characters, but at the space the characters might enter.

The Shooter test is to see if they can target the suppressed area. The Shooter does this once on their action.

The characters test is to see if they get hit when they enter the area. If they enter the area 16 times, they make 16 tests. The characters can avoid the test by letting themselves be suppressed.
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DireRadiant
post May 21 2010, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Octopiii @ May 20 2010, 09:27 PM) *
Illusion Spells:

I have a hard time finding anything regarding what happens when a character interacts with an Illusion. In my game, the PCs were ambushed; the mage was the only one who made the perception check; he also managed to go first. He cast Phantasm, creating an illusion of a cement wall growing out of the ground to surround the PCs (and most likely preventing the TPK). I decided the NPC's wouldn't randomly shoot at a cement wall; one of the PCs, however, decided that it would be perfectly fine for his character to try drive through it. Obviously, his car went through with no problem; my question is, should I have made him do some sort of test to see if his character would be willing to drive through a cement barrier?


Did the character know it was an illusion before driving through it? If they saw the wall appear, they might reasonably conceive to drive through it. With AR and VR and Magic being a part of life, it's entirely reasonable for them to try. If you like, you could ask the PC to try a Composure Test to overcome their natural instinct to avoid the wall.

If they didn't know, then they should behave like it is a cement wall. However, PCs drive through cement walls all the time in many games.
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