Would it be wrong to stab my players in the neck?, When the players out play the GM... Options

[thelovedr]

So lastnight was epic. The players through amazing planning and resourceful use of contacts completely bypassed almost all of the second 'Dawn of the Artifacts" adventure. The story teller in me wants to give the players a high-five but the GM in me wants to stab them in the neck for wasting the money.

Just so i dont spoil the adventure if you havent done it, I'll be vague. The runners accomplish the objective, but the bad guy is still alive. The thing is, the bad guy can just take it from the players if he wants to... prepared mages are mean.

So here is the question:
Do I just congratulate the players on an amazing play, or do i keep it real and take it back?

-Congratulations involves crap tons of work and a little waste of IRL money (which I hate).


-Keeping it real involves invalidating the players hard work and all around great plan.
-If I do this right though, it could be an epic fight and chase to the end.


Any Ideas?? Thanks in advance, and may your first child be a masculine one.

-the love dr

[Ol' Scratch]

Why not something in between? Reward them for thinking outside the box and executing what you firmly believe to be a great plan, and have the Big Bad Villain seek revenge on top of that? Perhaps through means other than taking away their well-earned rewards. I'm not familiar with the adventure you're speaking of, so I don't know the details, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or situation. Especially if you thought the whole thing was very well done.

[Dumori]

Play it realistically if they had an epic plan up to one flaw then that flaw should bite them in the ass. Hell a good extension of a story could be much more fun. As with Dr. Funkenstein I've not played or read the adventure in question.

But maybe reward them for the awesome plan and still have it taken back. When retrieving it for the second time sprinkle some added loot/pay-data/contacts what ever seams appropriate. The key think is if the plays in the world would seak the stole item back and can do it then they will. The other key thing is as a GM to make sure fun is had. Don' play it like an utter ass-hat unless you GM that way all the time (or its the them of your current GMing)

[LurkerOutThere]

Wait, did you see DoTA and thought the second one would actually be worth spending money on? Ok that's a bit harsh but to be honest if the first DoTA is any guide the second will be about as much as a railroad as one can possibly hope for without involving a train whistle. As a GM by the module you are sposed to do everything in your power to make the palyers loose or win only in the exact way the module allows. Would I do this? Certainly not.

[Paul]

Why not something in between? Reward them for thinking outside the box and executing what you firmly believe to be a great plan, and have the Big Bad Villain seek revenge on top of that? Perhaps through means other than taking away their well-earned rewards. I'm not familiar with the adventure you're speaking of, so I don't know the details, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or situation. Especially if you thought the whole thing was very well done.

What he said. Never be afraid to just take five, and think about things "Great plan, it really worked. But I need five minutes to get my shit together people."

[Deadmannumberone]

Wait, did you see DoTA and thought the second one would actually be worth spending money on? Ok that's a bit harsh but to be honest if the first DoTA is any guide the second will be about as much as a railroad as one can possibly hope for without involving a train whistle. As a GM by the module you are sposed to do everything in your power to make the palyers loose or win only in the exact way the module allows. Would I do this? Certainly not.

Just because you're a poor GM doesn't make the DotA series bad modules (as proved by thelovedr).

[LurkerOutThere]

Just because you're a poor GM doesn't make the DotA series bad modules (as proved by thelovedr).

You are exactly right that the two have no correlation, the fact that I am not a poor GM has nothing to do with Dusk being a rather poorly conceptualized setup for a "Mary Sue" moment, a "your naked in a foreign country" module, and "suprise twist" that isn't very well thought out. Frankly I'm not sure where you infer whether or not I'm a good or bad GM from but ok.

In retrospect I shouldn't use this thread to rag on Dusk or DoTA in general. I'm being careful not to offer specifics because I don't know details. Currently I'm trying to decide whether or not to get this module, on the one hand Dusk was quite bad, but there's always the hope that things will improve.

Ok so with that out of the way lets try this:

Knowing what I know about Dusk ending I'm presuming the NPC in question is working to steal an artifact back that the PC's stole? What method does he have to get it back that's absolutely foolproof?

Addendum and parting shot: Uh Dead? If DoTA is so great why would he need to come here for advice on debugging it? Shouldn't it include that?

[Yerameyahu]

I like railroads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Choo-choo!

[Deadmannumberone]

You are exactly right that the two have no correlation, the fact that I am not a poor GM has nothing to do with Dusk being a rather poorly conceptualized setup for a "Mary Sue" moment, a "your naked in a foreign country" module, and "suprise twist" that isn't very well thought out. Frankly I'm not sure where you infer whether or not I'm a good or bad GM from but ok.

In retrospect I shouldn't use this thread to rag on Dusk or DoTA in general. I'm being careful not to offer specifics because I don't know details. Currently I'm trying to decide whether or not to get this module, on the one hand Dusk was quite bad, but there's always the hope that things will improve.

Ok so with that out of the way lets try this:

Knowing what I know about Dusk ending I'm presuming the NPC in question is working to steal an artifact back that the PC's stole? What method does he have to get it back that's absolutely foolproof?

Addendum and parting shot: Uh Dead? If DoTA is so great why would he need to come here for advice on debugging it? Shouldn't it include that?

I'm saying that just because you can't evaluate a plan that the writers hadn't envisioned and adapt the adventure to that plan, doesn't mean it's a bad module. If you believe that using a moule means you must railroad the players into following the module, then you are a bad GM.

[KCKitsune]

to the OP, if your players made a brilliant plan, followed through well, and didn't make any mistakes, then I say give them a Karma bonus because they SHOULD be rewarded! Also, who says the the big bad has to take the item off the players? I've never read the module so if what I say doesn't make sense then please forgive me.

They are going to hand it to Mr. Johnson. Just have the big bad steal it from the Johnson and he (or his friend if the Johnson is dead) hires the Runners to get the item back... intro into the second module.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm saying that just because you can't evaluate a plan that the writers hadn't envisioned and adapt the adventure to that plan, doesn't mean it's a bad module. If you believe that using a moule means you must railroad the players into following the module, then you are a bad GM.

Just a hypothetical question then...

If the player's characters tend to ignore the main hooks, how do you intend to get them to the ending? This is not a unique question, as Character's are known for doing the exact opposite of what is expected... in some cases, you can quickly recover and manuever options to bring things back on course... in other circumstances, you really have no hope, and it just peters out... So, Do you railroad them back onto the path, or do you scrap the story for a new one?

Me, I don't mind the consequences of the players not following (or intentionally disregarding) the story... and yet, the story will continue on without them... maybe eventually, they will intersect back with the story, and if they do, that is great... but if they do not, then the story ends without their participation... The world moves along...

Keep the Faith

[Geminon]

Just because you're a poor GM doesn't make the DotA series bad modules (as proved by thelovedr).

If I am understanding him correctly, he is saying the same thing as thelovedr. He is saying that thelovedr should ignore what the module says and go with the flow of his own campaign. That is what GOOD GMs do.

[tagz]

Play it realistically.

If there is anything I've learned GMing it's not to try and adhere to a "plan" or "script" for the players to follow. Waste of time and energy because the players will always do something differently.

Instead, I try to make the rest of the world operate logically given what the players do. So consider what each NPC's motivations are and then what their capabilities are. Works much better. In this case, if your antagonist has the motivation and means to steal it back then he should, or at least try. Just don't let it seem like a GM screwover and be sure to reward them for the good planning and out-side the box thinking.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm saying that just because you can't evaluate a plan that the writers hadn't envisioned and adapt the adventure to that plan, doesn't mean it's a bad module. If you believe that using a moule means you must railroad the players into following the module, then you are a bad GM.

I'd say your sarcasm detector is broken but there were points in there where I wasn't sarcastic at all and you still failed to pick it up. Frankly I stand by my statement that Dusk is a bad module, all modules requre a level of adaption by the GM, this one is worse then most, what is the point of buying precaned product if it's so hugely unfun for the players and kind of boring from the GM standpoint.

[TheMidnightHobo]

My first thought is that if the big bad is in a position to take the item back, then the module (and maybe more importantly, the story)hasn't been completed yet. I mean, yes, the getting in and out with the thingummy is impressive, but if the guy they took it from can get it back, and he wants it bad enough, well... the dance ain't over. I'd say once they successfully complete the mission, give them some well-deserved bonus karma, but definitely have the big-bad do his thing as well.

[Emeraldknite]

Well I for one always buy modules even if I don't use them in the fashion that the writers envisioned. But for the OP, Dude just roll with it and see if you can salvage it in a way that fits with the story. I'm not familiar with the module in question, so it is hard to make a judgement call on what you should do. I have run so many games over the years that I have learned to just roll with what the players do. I firmly believe that:

Players are the worse things that ever happened to RPGs.

The always ruin the best planned out adventures. Nowadays I buy adventures and read them over and kinda use the stuff as a framework to portray the vision on the adventure. Become like water and your players can never halt you because you will adapt and flow in the direction that is needed.

[knasser]

I've got DotA: Midnight so I can guess who you're referring to as "Big Bad". I presume it's a certain mage that has "let power go to his head". Quite frankly, with that much power, I can't see how it wouldn't go to his head. The lackey that this guy has would be the big enemy in my game. The guy himself is like someone took an entire magical group and stuck all the members together to make one really big mage. Any plan that leaves him mad at you and knowing how to find you is not a perfect plan.

What's happened in your game has happened. You need to go with it. They've got the "A" part of "DotA". Now you need to whip up a new game where they deal with their new enemy. (Possibly by dropping dragons on his head).

K.

[Ryu]

Have them hand over the gizmo, give them a high five, have big bad steal the gizmo back from J...

[Bob Lord of Evil]

My take would go like this...

Congratulate them, award them karma, run another game or two, and then have the bad guy reappear (because I love villains that show up more than once).

No adventure survives contact with the players intact.

Hedge your bet, have at least a secondary mini-adventure on deck in case they blow through your big scenario (which does happens from time to time).


As for the "poor GM" comment...anybody who is willing to undertake running a game always gets a tip of the hat from me. Look, not every published adventure/splat book/source book/etc. is going to appeal to everyone, this is extremely subjective stuff. If a person offers up legitimate critical analysis of a product I am willing to listen, especially if it is something that I wrote. I prefer the person who is going to give me their straight up opinion about something that I wrote over a fanboy review. One may actually help me improve my writing the other just inflates my ego...which won't improve much of anything.

[Paul]

The nice thing, to me, when a group ignores a hook I've laid out is, like has been mentioned several times now, that those hooks don't just stop because you've ignored them. This isn't to say it directly affects the PC's, but eventually the blow back will catch up with them.

Imagine a scenario where this sort of thing bites them in the ass. "Yeah I'd have hired you for this job, but yeah you just blew that last one off." Or "Well if you had killed so and so he wouldn't have kidnapped your [someone important here] and destroyed your [something important here]." Obviously it doesn't need to be that drastic at all times, there can be numerous butterfly wing beats before the hurricane right?

LOT: I can't say I know you personally, but I've followed your posts on this forum and I think a couple of others-assuming you use the same handle elsewhere-and I have no doubt that you're not a poor GM. In fact all indications seem, to me, to say otherwise. (Sorry if that makes me look like an ass kiss, but often things like this aren't said enough, and places like DSF develop a pretty negative rep that sets the wrong tone.)

[knasser]

Imagine a scenario where this sort of thing bites them in the ass. "Yeah I'd have hired you for this job, but yeah you just blew that last one off." Or "Well if you had killed so and so he wouldn't have kidnapped your [someone important here] and destroyed your [something important here]." Obviously it doesn't need to be that drastic at all times, there can be numerous butterfly wing beats before the hurricane right?

I've plainly stated to my group that each run is pitched on the basis of the previous one. If they do great, the next time they're hired, it will be for a slightly harder, more rewarding run. If the mess up, the next run will be something a little easier and more forgiving. My group did a couple of good runs in succession, so I bumped them up to slightly bigger leagues. Unfortunately they then messed up quite badly so next session they get a Consequence Session. A Consequence Session is one where they aren't going out doing something new, but where things come to them because of what they've done and they have to deal with it. Most campaigns are a mixture of both.

K.

[LurkerOutThere]

Paul: Thanks man I do appreciate it, although now you've got me blushing.

In the interests of giving Midnight a fair shake and trying to answer Dr's query I bought and read it, by the way did anyone notice it's the future? I can just click on my computer and buy books! Sorry I'm just old enough to be tickled by this. Anyway here are my thoughts related to thelovedr's question: I will spoiler the bulk of my commentary as it does contain some spoilers from the book. I may post a full review elsewhere but I read the book at going on 2AM and don't have access to it here at work and if I'm going to review something I wanted to give it full dilligence.

[ Spoiler ]

Ok so the question for the doctor is this, when you say "bad guy" I'm presuming your reffering to the Aztlan blood mage. The question to ask yourself is how does he track the team? He is pretty scary and has considerable resources at his disposal but he's hardly omniscient if the runners get out of dodge (or LA, or Chicago or whatever) he's pretty much SoL. Similarly if the runners just head to a more public area of the LA sprawl until they can catch a flight or car out of town they should be fine, there is no reason for the blood mage to be able to track them inherently. He neither has the map or the sextant and he's at a serious disadvantage in the LA or Denver as if he displays his power and affiliation openly the local authorities are extremely hostile to Aztlan and Aztechnology and will come down on him like rods from god.

Don't get me wrong, the conflict with him in the deep lacuna is one of the cooler parts of the module but if the tables are turned (he's doing the chasing and the one forced to make the desperate gamble) you could both have your drawn out brawl to end it all with the runners getting some distinct advantages from being prepared for oncoming hostiles.

So here's some thoughts in a more general frame: First off if the players had fun and did cool stuff and you had fun and did stuff it was hardly a waste of money was it? If that's going to be your metric for how modules are evaluated I don't think your going to find many that meet your criteria. Now a possible salve for the wound is there are a ton of modules available for Shadowrunn through resources like Knasser's excellent site or through the Shadowrun Missions. The denver campaign is available for free on the shadowrun 4 site. While I didn't always care for the tone of denver with multiple modules freely available the very least you can do is mine them for concepts and ideas.

Now as to the big fight my advice is by all means have it but have it thematically appropriate. Remember in Terminator 2 where the T1000 crashes the semi-truck down from the bridge? That is the kind of theme I would go for, he's not going to grandstand, he's not going to use good tactics, he's just going to come at the runners with everything he's got in the first window he gets and hope to nail them and get his toys back before they can escape, this either gives the runners an even footing or a significant tactical advantage depending on their level of planing. You might also consider a consolation prize or consequences, the runners used their contacts to recover the artifact, perhaps the big bad tracks them through their contacts, killing one in the process, this isn't a punishment, this is just a possible consequence of life in the shadows. The flip side of this is of course with the big bad having to chase them they might know about certain countermeasures he's got in place and take steps to neutralize them allowing them to capture him alive, which potentially leads to a major bounty from Dunkelzahn's will.

[Deadmannumberone]

LOT: I can't say I know you personally, but I've followed your posts on this forum and I think a couple of others-assuming you use the same handle elsewhere-and I have no doubt that you're not a poor GM. In fact all indications seem, to me, to say otherwise. (Sorry if that makes me look like an ass kiss, but often things like this aren't said enough, and places like DSF develop a pretty negative rep that sets the wrong tone.)

Yet he says things like:

As a GM by the module you are sposed to do everything in your power to make the palyers loose or win only in the exact way the module allows.

Which is textbook bad GMing.

[Whipstitch]

If you believe that using a moule means you must railroad the players into following the module, then you are a bad GM.

I've read more than a few modules over the years that basically say "If they get off track, bring the pain train" right in the bloody book. I'm not saying that's what happened with Dusk, mind you, since I haven't read it, but the fact that things can get so off track that you end up going off on your own tangents anyway is why I stick to setting books and give modules a miss. At the very least just deciding so and so is a bad GM based on their dislike of a module hits me as pretty unnecessary.

[Deadmannumberone]

I've read more than a few modules over the years that basically say "If they get off track, bring the pain train" right in the bloody book. I'm not saying that's what happened with Dusk, mind you, but the fact that things can get so off track that you end up going off on your own tangents anyway is why I stick to setting books and give modules a miss.

If the module says to do that from the beginning, then yes, that is a bad module. If it says to do that at certain points, where it's used to emulate the danger of the region, it's normal (neither good nor bad). Dusk specifically states that there's a very good chance the players will go outside the module, and you need to either be prepared for it or be able to wing it.