So lastnight was epic. The players through amazing planning and resourceful use of contacts completely bypassed almost all of the second 'Dawn of the Artifacts" adventure. The story teller in me wants to give the players a high-five but the GM in me wants to stab them in the neck for wasting the money.

Just so i dont spoil the adventure if you havent done it, I'll be vague. The runners accomplish the objective, but the bad guy is still alive. The thing is, the bad guy can just take it from the players if he wants to... prepared mages are mean.

So here is the question:
Do I just congratulate the players on an amazing play, or do i keep it real and take it back?

-Congratulations involves crap tons of work and a little waste of IRL money (which I hate).


-Keeping it real involves invalidating the players hard work and all around great plan.
-If I do this right though, it could be an epic fight and chase to the end.


Any Ideas?? Thanks in advance, and may your first child be a masculine one.

-the love dr

Why not something in between? Reward them for thinking outside the box and executing what you firmly believe to be a great plan, and have the Big Bad Villain seek revenge on top of that? Perhaps through means other than taking away their well-earned rewards. I'm not familiar with the adventure you're speaking of, so I don't know the details, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or situation. Especially if you thought the whole thing was very well done.

Play it realistically if they had an epic plan up to one flaw then that flaw should bite them in the ass. Hell a good extension of a story could be much more fun. As with Dr. Funkenstein I've not played or read the adventure in question.

But maybe reward them for the awesome plan and still have it taken back. When retrieving it for the second time sprinkle some added loot/pay-data/contacts what ever seams appropriate. The key think is if the plays in the world would seak the stole item back and can do it then they will. The other key thing is as a GM to make sure fun is had. Don' play it like an utter ass-hat unless you GM that way all the time (or its the them of your current GMing)

Wait, did you see DoTA and thought the second one would actually be worth spending money on? Ok that's a bit harsh but to be honest if the first DoTA is any guide the second will be about as much as a railroad as one can possibly hope for without involving a train whistle. As a GM by the module you are sposed to do everything in your power to make the palyers loose or win only in the exact way the module allows. Would I do this? Certainly not.

What he said. Never be afraid to just take five, and think about things "Great plan, it really worked. But I need five minutes to get my shit together people."

Just because you're a poor GM doesn't make the DotA series bad modules (as proved by thelovedr).

You are exactly right that the two have no correlation, the fact that I am not a poor GM has nothing to do with Dusk being a rather poorly conceptualized setup for a "Mary Sue" moment, a "your naked in a foreign country" module, and "suprise twist" that isn't very well thought out. Frankly I'm not sure where you infer whether or not I'm a good or bad GM from but ok.

In retrospect I shouldn't use this thread to rag on Dusk or DoTA in general. I'm being careful not to offer specifics because I don't know details. Currently I'm trying to decide whether or not to get this module, on the one hand Dusk was quite bad, but there's always the hope that things will improve.

Ok so with that out of the way lets try this:

Knowing what I know about Dusk ending I'm presuming the NPC in question is working to steal an artifact back that the PC's stole? What method does he have to get it back that's absolutely foolproof?

Addendum and parting shot: Uh Dead? If DoTA is so great why would he need to come here for advice on debugging it? Shouldn't it include that?

I like railroads. Choo-choo!

I'm saying that just because you can't evaluate a plan that the writers hadn't envisioned and adapt the adventure to that plan, doesn't mean it's a bad module. If you believe that using a moule means you must railroad the players into following the module, then you are a bad GM.

to the OP, if your players made a brilliant plan, followed through well, and didn't make any mistakes, then I say give them a Karma bonus because they SHOULD be rewarded! Also, who says the the big bad has to take the item off the players? I've never read the module so if what I say doesn't make sense then please forgive me.

They are going to hand it to Mr. Johnson. Just have the big bad steal it from the Johnson and he (or his friend if the Johnson is dead) hires the Runners to get the item back... intro into the second module.

Just a hypothetical question then...

If the player's characters tend to ignore the main hooks, how do you intend to get them to the ending? This is not a unique question, as Character's are known for doing the exact opposite of what is expected... in some cases, you can quickly recover and manuever options to bring things back on course... in other circumstances, you really have no hope, and it just peters out... So, Do you railroad them back onto the path, or do you scrap the story for a new one?

Me, I don't mind the consequences of the players not following (or intentionally disregarding) the story... and yet, the story will continue on without them... maybe eventually, they will intersect back with the story, and if they do, that is great... but if they do not, then the story ends without their participation... The world moves along...

Keep the Faith

If I am understanding him correctly, he is saying the same thing as thelovedr. He is saying that thelovedr should ignore what the module says and go with the flow of his own campaign. That is what GOOD GMs do.

Play it realistically.

If there is anything I've learned GMing it's not to try and adhere to a "plan" or "script" for the players to follow. Waste of time and energy because the players will always do something differently.

Instead, I try to make the rest of the world operate logically given what the players do. So consider what each NPC's motivations are and then what their capabilities are. Works much better. In this case, if your antagonist has the motivation and means to steal it back then he should, or at least try. Just don't let it seem like a GM screwover and be sure to reward them for the good planning and out-side the box thinking.

I'd say your sarcasm detector is broken but there were points in there where I wasn't sarcastic at all and you still failed to pick it up. Frankly I stand by my statement that Dusk is a bad module, all modules requre a level of adaption by the GM, this one is worse then most, what is the point of buying precaned product if it's so hugely unfun for the players and kind of boring from the GM standpoint.

My first thought is that if the big bad is in a position to take the item back, then the module (and maybe more importantly, the story)hasn't been completed yet. I mean, yes, the getting in and out with the thingummy is impressive, but if the guy they took it from can get it back, and he wants it bad enough, well... the dance ain't over. I'd say once they successfully complete the mission, give them some well-deserved bonus karma, but definitely have the big-bad do his thing as well.

Well I for one always buy modules even if I don't use them in the fashion that the writers envisioned. But for the OP, Dude just roll with it and see if you can salvage it in a way that fits with the story. I'm not familiar with the module in question, so it is hard to make a judgement call on what you should do. I have run so many games over the years that I have learned to just roll with what the players do. I firmly believe that:

Players are the worse things that ever happened to RPGs.

The always ruin the best planned out adventures. Nowadays I buy adventures and read them over and kinda use the stuff as a framework to portray the vision on the adventure. Become like water and your players can never halt you because you will adapt and flow in the direction that is needed.

I've got DotA: Midnight so I can guess who you're referring to as "Big Bad". I presume it's a certain mage that has "let power go to his head". Quite frankly, with that much power, I can't see how it wouldn't go to his head. The lackey that this guy has would be the big enemy in my game. The guy himself is like someone took an entire magical group and stuck all the members together to make one really big mage. Any plan that leaves him mad at you and knowing how to find you is not a perfect plan.

What's happened in your game has happened. You need to go with it. They've got the "A" part of "DotA". Now you need to whip up a new game where they deal with their new enemy. (Possibly by dropping dragons on his head).

K.

Have them hand over the gizmo, give them a high five, have big bad steal the gizmo back from J...

My take would go like this...

Congratulate them, award them karma, run another game or two, and then have the bad guy reappear (because I love villains that show up more than once).

No adventure survives contact with the players intact.

Hedge your bet, have at least a secondary mini-adventure on deck in case they blow through your big scenario (which does happens from time to time).


As for the "poor GM" comment...anybody who is willing to undertake running a game always gets a tip of the hat from me. Look, not every published adventure/splat book/source book/etc. is going to appeal to everyone, this is extremely subjective stuff. If a person offers up legitimate critical analysis of a product I am willing to listen, especially if it is something that I wrote. I prefer the person who is going to give me their straight up opinion about something that I wrote over a fanboy review. One may actually help me improve my writing the other just inflates my ego...which won't improve much of anything.

The nice thing, to me, when a group ignores a hook I've laid out is, like has been mentioned several times now, that those hooks don't just stop because you've ignored them. This isn't to say it directly affects the PC's, but eventually the blow back will catch up with them.

Imagine a scenario where this sort of thing bites them in the ass. "Yeah I'd have hired you for this job, but yeah you just blew that last one off." Or "Well if you had killed so and so he wouldn't have kidnapped your [someone important here] and destroyed your [something important here]." Obviously it doesn't need to be that drastic at all times, there can be numerous butterfly wing beats before the hurricane right?

LOT: I can't say I know you personally, but I've followed your posts on this forum and I think a couple of others-assuming you use the same handle elsewhere-and I have no doubt that you're not a poor GM. In fact all indications seem, to me, to say otherwise. (Sorry if that makes me look like an ass kiss, but often things like this aren't said enough, and places like DSF develop a pretty negative rep that sets the wrong tone.)

I've plainly stated to my group that each run is pitched on the basis of the previous one. If they do great, the next time they're hired, it will be for a slightly harder, more rewarding run. If the mess up, the next run will be something a little easier and more forgiving. My group did a couple of good runs in succession, so I bumped them up to slightly bigger leagues. Unfortunately they then messed up quite badly so next session they get a Consequence Session. A Consequence Session is one where they aren't going out doing something new, but where things come to them because of what they've done and they have to deal with it. Most campaigns are a mixture of both.

K.

Paul: Thanks man I do appreciate it, although now you've got me blushing.

In the interests of giving Midnight a fair shake and trying to answer Dr's query I bought and read it, by the way did anyone notice it's the future? I can just click on my computer and buy books! Sorry I'm just old enough to be tickled by this. Anyway here are my thoughts related to thelovedr's question: I will spoiler the bulk of my commentary as it does contain some spoilers from the book. I may post a full review elsewhere but I read the book at going on 2AM and don't have access to it here at work and if I'm going to review something I wanted to give it full dilligence.



So here's some thoughts in a more general frame: First off if the players had fun and did cool stuff and you had fun and did stuff it was hardly a waste of money was it? If that's going to be your metric for how modules are evaluated I don't think your going to find many that meet your criteria. Now a possible salve for the wound is there are a ton of modules available for Shadowrunn through resources like Knasser's excellent site or through the Shadowrun Missions. The denver campaign is available for free on the shadowrun 4 site. While I didn't always care for the tone of denver with multiple modules freely available the very least you can do is mine them for concepts and ideas.

Now as to the big fight my advice is by all means have it but have it thematically appropriate. Remember in Terminator 2 where the T1000 crashes the semi-truck down from the bridge? That is the kind of theme I would go for, he's not going to grandstand, he's not going to use good tactics, he's just going to come at the runners with everything he's got in the first window he gets and hope to nail them and get his toys back before they can escape, this either gives the runners an even footing or a significant tactical advantage depending on their level of planing. You might also consider a consolation prize or consequences, the runners used their contacts to recover the artifact, perhaps the big bad tracks them through their contacts, killing one in the process, this isn't a punishment, this is just a possible consequence of life in the shadows. The flip side of this is of course with the big bad having to chase them they might know about certain countermeasures he's got in place and take steps to neutralize them allowing them to capture him alive, which potentially leads to a major bounty from Dunkelzahn's will.

Yet he says things like:



Which is textbook bad GMing.

I've read more than a few modules over the years that basically say "If they get off track, bring the pain train" right in the bloody book. I'm not saying that's what happened with Dusk, mind you, since I haven't read it, but the fact that things can get so off track that you end up going off on your own tangents anyway is why I stick to setting books and give modules a miss. At the very least just deciding so and so is a bad GM based on their dislike of a module hits me as pretty unnecessary.

If the module says to do that from the beginning, then yes, that is a bad module. If it says to do that at certain points, where it's used to emulate the danger of the region, it's normal (neither good nor bad). Dusk specifically states that there's a very good chance the players will go outside the module, and you need to either be prepared for it or be able to wing it.

Oh boy your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.. Let me bold and fill in what you seem to be missing.






I'm not sure how I could make it any clearer that the behaviors your presuming I engage in are the exact opposite of my standard procedure. Perhaps I could display a picture or something? I don't have dusk in front of me but it's "preparation" is basically the form of Frosty the super elf telling the runners they can't do stuff, that's it's suggested fix in a number of places. Rather then using logic or setting constraints it uses a super powered baby sitter, and at one point an infinite number of ghouls. It's not just that it railroads, it's that it railroads poorly and in places isn't internally consistant. As to just winging it, yes that is an option, but that's an option without buying dusk or any printed adventure. Rule zero shouldn't be used as a crutch to support bad writing.

Witch is why I don't buy adventure books apart form for DnD and then its only if its a massive dungeon for a railroaded hack and slash min/max'd crawl witch is a different type of game entirety. Then the fun is purely form smashing goblin's faces in and the plot is your in a dungeon kill shit and loot it all. That's not really GMing its more rolling the other set of dice for the NPCs Still fun but a then railraoding like a spoon is acceptable and only then.

Don't like the Mary sue NPC's. Remove them and add your own batch of NPCs, to suite your taste. I used the DOTA module quite effectively, and I changed a few BS things I didn't like and other items to fit the campaign.

Yeah,

Understand how you feel.

I have one player that is more of a social gamer at least as far as Shadowrun is concerned. More of a wargamer.

Usually lets the others take lead RPG wise, but every once in a while he will come up with a plan totally out of the blue that drops my jaw.

He totally short circuits much of what I have planned out for the session, but it is nice to know he is listening.



So you roll with the punches. Take a break if needed.

Congratulate the player and let your players celebrate their victory.



Then decide what other bad stuff happens to them. Play fast and loose with an eye to the story. Beef up a later encounter.

Cause PC's always end up where things are thickest. Perhaps because the GM can always have an extra elevator of security show up if needed.



The important thing is to let them enjoy their victory and to not cheapen it no matter how much you want to stab them in the neck.

Their actions need to have an impact on their world especially in Shadowrun run where runners are just hired tools for the real players.


Having the Johnson lose it after they are paid off is also a real good way to handle it. Cleaning up after some one else always works plus they get the ego boost of being the highly paid specialist brought in to fix the problem.

They can also get paid twice for the same job.



Plus even if they short circuit a large section of the adventure, recycling is the name of the game.

There will be some where down the line that with a little filing off of the serial numbers, that you will be able to reuse that entire section they by passed.



Just take good notes and remember no good deed goes unpunished.

Sooner or later they will end up shooting themselves in the foot.

And it is always so much better when they do it to themselves.

THIS

At the least, if they sidestepped the BBEG, then he's still out there looking for what your team has nabbed. They should start feeling his ripples as he stomps around looking for them. Then they can go hunting their hunter.

How fast do Babylon 5 ships travel? The literal canon answer is, "At the speed of plot." Should the BBEG be waiting down the left path in the forest or the right path? He should be waiting down whichever path the PC's choose. Adjust the situation for how many clues the PC's picked up on, whether or not they choose the more advantageous path. It's like life. Do we humans actually have free will and freedom of choice or not? Well, we certainly appear to and that's all that matters. Sometimes, the illusion of free will is what matters most.

That being said, sometimes you just have to take the module, set it aside and wing it.

If the PC's just destroy the module, then they've destroyed it, reward them and move on. If you're playing a campaign together and not just a single mission at a con, then have the BBEG come back 2/3 of the way through the next module, or two or three adventures later or whatever. Or take the end that they "missed" and run it as a full stand alone adventure sometime.

PC's sometimes don't just think outside the box -- they take the box, turn it into a tactical nuclear weapon and use it to blow the problem to smithereens. That being said, you're the GM -- they can't overpower you because you control the entire freaking bloody world. You can do it. I have faith in you, especially since you're coming here asking advice. I can't give any more specific advice, though, since I haven't played that adventure or run it.

Good luck.

My general motto as GM is...

If the characters aren't in some way worse off by the end of the adventure than they were before the adventure began, then I'm doing something wrong.

That doesn't mean I go out of my way to intentionally screw them over, but I do apply a liberal amount of consequences to their actions (or sometimes inactions). IMHO this helps to bring the world to life and prevents each 'run' from feeling like its done in a void.

So I say, let them have their shining moment in the sun and bask in glory of their accomplishment... then while they are distracted hit them with the consequences of their actions by introducing them to Mr. Not Happy With Their Accomplishments and all his special friends from The Hit Squad.


[Edit]Also it is never ok to stab your players in the neck. Characters sure. Players no.

I'm actually kind of curious how things turned out for the OP especially after this bruhaha. Now being more familiar with the module itself after reading it here is the basic situation.

Module in brief: Runners are on a merry chase looking for the Macguffin, so are other parties. One of those other parties by the module gets to it before they do and they pretty much have to chase said big bad down the proverial cobra hole being scripted to be assisted by NPC's if their under strength, NPC's that they were in an adversarial role to in the earlier module or this one potentially. The whole module basically predicates on the runners 1) Edge not refilling 2) Not having access to their best gear 3) Being in a city where they are lacking contacts/assistance and must grope around hoping to find the links you need. Their saving grace is every day or so they get a Mcguffin sense basically telling them where the item is, basically enough to keep them constantly running behind.

Now here is the issue, the OP's players through use of their contacts etc somehow got out ahead of the problem and took the Macguffin from the target before the target's employer (the big bad) could intercept it. Now the Big Bad doesn't have Macguffin sense his only way to stay competitive in this race was the fact that his employee was presumably keeping him informed of their whereabouts. Short of GM fiat to force the module confrontation if the big bad doesn't make a headlong rush to get them soon after the pickup the players should be able to get away scott free.

The problem is the GM kind of feels like his players being smart and resourceful have caused him to waste his money on the module, that I have no real fix for.

Best suggestion, try and re-use whatever they skipped from the module later in a different context. I'll add to LurkerOutThere's synopsis with the comment that the enemy of the piece in this module is really, very, very powerful. Letting him find the PCs in any realistic fashion is probably a death sentence for them. Conversely if he can't find them, it makes no difference. Near misses and climactic battles are hard enough to pitch in Shadowrun as it is. When one side is so much more drastically powerful than the other (I would expect), then it becomes even more difficult.