Food... Slaughter?, First Shadowrun and Morality in P&PRPG's Options

[bellis]

Just ran our first Shadowrun session, and it was awesome. Feel a little strange because we RP'd pretty hardcore... We ran that introductory adventure, Food Fight, right? Typically in the games we've played before we would run an adventure if an event like this happened we would stop or kill the bad guys, but since we're criminals (I play a Vory Orc Assassin) SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED FOOD FIGHT it made sense ingame to kill all the witnesses. My fellow player cast some spell that allowed her to command the mage leader of the gang to do things (haven't played a mage yet; just focusing on my assassin character so far so not sure what the name of the spell was - you all probably know) she told him to do. She told him to overcast a spell and it ended up blowing up the inside of the stuffer shack, killing everyone inside (all witnesses). Is this normal for Shadowrun? The chaotic good part of me feels kind of yucky about it, but the gamer who hates the idea of black and white alignment system'd games kind of loved it. This is what playing a killer for hire is like, right? Have any of you had experiences like this?

[Geminon]

No that is not normal. It is a very bad idea to do that sort of thing in most games because if the game world is at all reasonable, there will be severe consequences. The magician's astral signature will also be found by a magical forensics specialist working for the police even if it was only to make another mage blow everything up. And in such a public display of violence that is almost guaranteed to happen. With that signature they will have an easy time tracking the group's mage down and bad things will ensue.

But if you are playing the type of game where everyone is just going around killing things without worrying about the law then I guess that would be normal. But you could do that in any game.

[Neraph]

No that is not normal. It is a very bad idea to do that sort of thing in most games because if the game world is at all reasonable, there will be severe consequences. The magician's astral signature will also be found by a magical forensics specialist working for the police even if it was only to make another mage blow everything up. And in such a public display of violence that is almost guaranteed to happen. With that signature they will have an easy time tracking the group's mage down and bad things will ensue.

It may take a couple of in-game weeks, but expect hard response from the Knight-Errant security forces. Heck, Stuffer Shack may even pull out some corpsec on you guys for that.

Honestly, if you guys survive that, your GM isn't playing it properly (or he's giving you some serious slack).

EDIT: One of my games the players killed multiple security guards, caused a ghoul outbreak (one of them had Carrier), make thousands of nuyen worth of damages, and stole 50-ish elderly from an old-folk's home (that was actually their 'run). Oh, and no one messed with the camera feed, and many of the members didn't have masks/helmets. In response, they had a couple reskinned Tir Ghost squads go after them while they were at home.

Luckily, an exec at the megacorp they hit got to them before anyone else did. He had the Ghosts pop them with Slab and told them he'd take care of things, as long as they worked for him when he asked for it. For compliance, he had blood samples taken of all the members. Some of the blood was used to make full body clones that were used in a carfire to cover up and provide bodies for the heinous crimes the group commited, while the rest was used as a Ritual Link to send them Dream spells telling them what they needed to do for their new Johnson.

And if they ever refused, the blood could also be used for a Ritual Powerbolt/Powerball.

[bellis]

No that is not normal. It is a very bad idea to do that sort of thing in most games because if the game world is at all reasonable, there will be severe consequences. The magician's astral signature will also be found by a magical forensics specialist working for the police even if it was only to make another mage blow everything up. And in such a public display of violence that is almost guaranteed to happen. With that signature they will have an easy time tracking the group's mage down and bad things will ensue.

But if you are playing the type of game where everyone is just going around killing things without worrying about the law then I guess that would be normal. But you could do that in any game.

Woah woah woah woah woah woah - keep in mind this is our FIRST game of Shadowrun - we haven't even gotten into the astral realm or the matrix at ALL, let alone become aware of forensic mages. Maybe that's what our GM has in store for us next game - us dealing with the consequences of wholesale murder. But we're thinking, we're criminals, right? In a world where I'm regularly carrying out hits for the Russian Mafia it seemed like the APPROPRIATE thing to do. We're learning as we go along - it's not like we started the game going, man, we are gonna kill EVERYBODY. But if you're a gun for hire and you kill a bunch of thugs, are you just gonna be like, peace witnesses?

To be fair also to us there was a child there, and we took this child to the Russian Orthodox Church (later our GM worked in a bunch of stuff where it turned out this kid was more special than we thought and we had to fix THAT situation).

Haven't you ever watched The Wire? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't think anyone is condemning you, they're just telling you why that isn't the norm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Repercussions are a Big Deal™ in any decent Shadowrun game. A shadowrunner's biggest asset is their anonymity. Going around blowing up Stuffer Shacks is kind of the polar opposite of that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now if they were hired to blow up a Stuffer Shack, and approached it intelligently and tried their best to cover their bases, that'd be more along the lines of a normal Shadowrun game. Food Fight! is less an example of a typical game and more an introduction to the combat mechanics.

[Neraph]

But if you're a gun for hire and you kill a bunch of thugs, are you just gonna be like, peace witnesses?

No, you do it so that there aren't any witnesses... even in a crowded mall. It's possible, and easy for Shadowrunners.

[bellis]

It may take a couple of in-game weeks, but expect hard response from the Knight-Errant security forces. Heck, Stuffer Shack may even pull out some corpsec on you guys for that.

Honestly, if you guys survive that, your GM isn't playing it properly (or he's giving you some serious slack).

Well, our GM is learning as we go along too. We've played Mage: The Ascension, Mage: The Awakening, Hero System, and D&D 2nd ed. The situation came up, and I was like, is this what this character would do? Realistically (as possible)? My GM's room mate came down to the kitchen where we were playing and I was like, hey, this is my character - is this right? And he's like, come on man, he's an ASSASSIN. Kill the witnesses.

We looked to our GM and he seemed a bit hesitant, but he's like - hey dude, you're playing this character. If you do this, I get it. So we did it.

We just have more to read I guess :B I wonder how things go down when players don't even start with the history in the book like we did and some core mechanics, but just read the quickstart rules? Man, there is a lot to learn about being a criminal in the sixth world. o_O;;

[Ol' Scratch]

We just have more to read I guess :B I wonder how things go down when players don't even start with the history in the book like we did and some core mechanics, but just read the quickstart rules? Man, there is a lot to learn about being a criminal in the sixth world. o_O;;

There really is. That's what makes it so fun!

And that's the most important thing. As long as everyone agrees with what makes sense, that's really all that matters in individual games. It may not be what most people do, but if you're having fun and it makes sense for you guys, then that's the right answer.

[Hagga]

I don't think anyone is condemning you, they're just telling you why that isn't the norm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Repercussions are a Big Deal™ in any decent Shadowrun game. A shadowrunner's biggest asset is their anonymity. Going around blowing up Stuffer Shacks is kind of the polar opposite of that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now if they were hired to blow up a Stuffer Shack, and approached it intelligently and tried their best to cover their bases, that'd be more along the lines of a normal Shadowrun game. Food Fight! is less an example of a typical game and more an introduction to the combat mechanics.

If they have the cleansing metamagic and a fireball spell they don't even need to be intelligent. Sit in the alley, cast a honkin' great fireball, clean it up and have the hacker block calls for help so that any remaining signature is removed by the time the cops and firies arrive.

[Neraph]

We just have more to read I guess :B I wonder how things go down when players don't even start with the history in the book like we did and some core mechanics, but just read the quickstart rules? Man, there is a lot to learn about being a criminal in the sixth world. o_O;;

Things like this work well in the Shadows, but not on the streets. Think of it the same way as The Punisher or other movies in a similar vein. The badguys are badguys in areas the cops don't go to, not neccessarily at the cornerstore Wall-Mart. At least, not unless the badguys really want to take it there...

[bellis]

Thanks dudes. Just gotta get crackalackin' on reading more rules so I can think more like a Shadowrunner.

It's like when we initially got the books and made the commitment to play, I was at a friend's house and trying to put together a character. It took me two hours (and I found out later I didn't even get it right that time, lol). Everyone was fucked up and having a good time when one of my friends laughed and said "It's like you're doing homework, man." And I said, "That's why this game seems so fun."

[Neraph]

Thanks dudes. Just gotta get crackalackin' on reading more rules so I can think more like a Shadowrunner.

It's like when we initially got the books and made the commitment to play, I was at a friend's house and trying to put together a character. It took me two hours (and I found out later I didn't even get it right that time, lol). Everyone was fucked up and having a good time when one of my friends laughed and said "It's like you're doing homework, man." And I said, "That's why this game seems so fun."

Wait... You like homework?

I digress... There are plenty of threads on here about "Tips for Shadowrunners" and "Survival in the Shadows" and whatnot. Some good ideas for "research" or "homework" would be watching like Ghost in the Shell or Blade Runner. More than likely people with post others now that I've opened it up. I suggest people better at searching than I to post links to other threads that cover what I've mentioned, or other things you believe pertinent.

EDIT: Well well, look what I found in my favorites: A Shadowrunner's Best Practices.

[bellis]

Wait... You like homework?

I digress... There are plenty of threads on here about "Tips for Shadowrunners" and "Survival in the Shadows" and whatnot. Some good ideas for "research" or "homework" would be watching like Ghost in the Shell or Blade Runner. More than likely people with post others now that I've opened it up. I suggest people better at searching than I to post links to other threads that cover what I've mentioned, or other things you believe pertinent.

Haha, not homework in the traditional sense, but I like that Shadowrun is game that doesn't dumb itself down to the status quo. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like games that work fast and easy too, but Shadowrun seems different. Seems like a game that takes pride in its own depth instead of eschewing its secrets for ease of play.

[Manunancy]

'The blow them all witnesses up to hell' approach isn't the most common criminal method. It's more a gangsta-syle sort of thing that you'd expect from crackheads who can crawl back to someplace where the cops won't follow. Not out of moral imperative, but out of professionalism.

Corpses in job lots tends to draw a lot of media attention which will put pressure ont the cops to look seriously into the matter. That tends to be bad for business.

In the stuffer shack's case, it's likely there will be a serious effort from the Lone Star to find who did the thing - especially if they can figure out the ganger has been manipulated (say if the surveillance vids show your character casting a spell, then walking to the guy to talk, and leaving him behind to blow up the place) odds are they will be nosey about it. That sort of police crackdown tends to be bad for the vory's business, even if they're not associated to the deed.

That sort of concept can be seen in the 'Casino royal' james bond movie : 007 got a scolding by M not because he blew up a gaz tank in an embassy to get the guy, but because he did it on camera and it brought some serious embarassment to the government.

[Neraph]

...crimibal... ambassy...

Epic.

On a serious note, good points.

[tjn]

Also, keep in mind that whole "kill all the witnesses so you can't be identified" doesn't really work when the soykaf machine has three different cameras itself. Sure the 'Shack was blown up, but what about the shop across the street? The car that was parked outside? The streetlight over the sidewalk? There are more cameras in the setting than there are people to watch the recordings and trying to erase them all is a fool's errand. In an age where they casually spray RFID tags as a cloud of dust- and each mote in that cloud has it's own camera and separate connection to the matrix, there's just no easy way to eliminate every single witness.

Really, the key is to accept that you will be identified. Hell, you may want to be identified, if you're good enough. It's like the shadowrunner version of advertising because the corp you ran against today, might just be your employer tomorrow. But a good runner does two things: he downplays any reason for people to want come after him, while at the same time giving them every reason to not come after him.

Rather, the "professional," in my opinion, specifically goes out of his way to not kill witnesses, and even guards who's job it is to kill the runners, because there is no feasible way to eliminate every single witness. This eliminates the "they killed my friend" motivation of the people involved and reduces the headline grabbing effect. Which would would sell more for a news organization? "Terrorists blow up local factory, killing 38!" or "Local factory will be shut down due to a faulty regulator." Same job, just one approach will bring down a lot more heat than the other.

Secondarily, if they do come after a professional runner, the runner hurts the corporation where it cares most: the bottomline. If the runners wreak enough Citymasters and helicopters to make the corp spend more in retrieval of what was stolen than what it would cost to simply replace what was stolen, the runner discourages the corporations from coming after them because it makes no financial sense, even if they were to get back that awesome prototype or paydata. Thus the professional runner avoids making it personal to the cops or corpsec but at the same time gives the corporation a monetary reason to leave them alone.

This doesn't work 100% of the time as sometimes the head of security will take any run against him personally and sometimes the branch manager will throw obscene gobs of nuyen after sending out two different fully equipped and supported High Threat Response Teams that got obliterated, because he needs to produce some result, any result, to justify all the expenses he's already wasted. But as a general attitude and approach to running, staying quiet and not killing anyone will result in a longer life expectancy in the shadows.

[Synner]

Bellis - If you can get your hands on Runners' Companion there's a chapter near the beginning devoted to Survival Tips which you might find interesting since it covers some of the less obvious risks of running in the default setting and contextualizes some of the stuff people have been stating here.

[ShadowPavement]

If you guys had a good time playing the game then you are doing it right.

If you guys like to do gonzo, over the top things like that then it's all cool. The GM doesn't need to have "repercussions" unless it will be fun for the game and you guys.

Personally I like to run my games like action movies where this kind of stuff happens a lot. Lone Star or Knights Errant only show up if it's important or interesting to the game.

[phlapjack77]

I think watching the movie "Heat" is a good way to get the feel for Shadowrun, and how "professional" criminals view killing innocents.

If you don't want to watch the movie, basically some professional criminals are robbing an armored car. They have a new guy with them, who kills one of the guards for no reason. The professionals then kill all the other guards(since killing one guard automatically makes it a much more serious crime), but are really really pi**ed about doing so, and afterwards they try to kill the new guy for causing them to kill the innocents.

See also, "Ronin" - DeNiro has some of the best Shadowrun movies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[flext]

One thing I tell my players is "Bodies cause investigations." I tend to play a very low combat and high RP game though. In the game we are playing the players did not kill anyone until their third or fourth run and that was a botched run because of it. Whether wholesale murder is normal or not is really up to the group. You can play the game with any degree of dystopia that you want and the gaming police won't break down your door for not "following the rules". I would say that on average a Shadowrunner thinks bodies are bad for business (unless making bodies is the business) and try to avoid killing people unnecessarily.

[Lansdren]

I have always seen the need for repercusions to actions liable to be noticed. Especially when explosions are evident, mostly our game runs with half the team being more cold pro (less deaths if possible be polite but dangeous) where the other half of the team is more pink mohawk (we have a drake whos answer to we have hostages was cool can I burn them alive)

It seems to me that there should be balance fun against setting but for me part of the fun has always been the questions

Will this get us in more trouble then normal?
Are we still getting paid for this?
Are you sure we are getting paid?

[bellis]

To begin with in the adventure a car exploded in front of the Stuffer Shack and blew out the front window, so our second explosion I think wasn't as bad as it seems. And incidentally, we did get paid. It was probably the fact that our GM liked our gonzo ultraviolent approach but also because we are so green at this game that we didn't get straight up destroyed by the end of the adventure. But I have shared what your thoughts with him which I think will definitely enrich our game. We're getting together Saturday to discuss it and maybe play the beginning of the next chapter. I like the gonzoness of it all, but what's the fun of playing such a dense, deep game if you play it on such a superficial level?
Again guys, I really appreciate all of your input. If only because the mechanics/politics of Shadowrun are still so exciting to me, being so fresh. It makes it all feel more fleshed out; smarter.

[Angelone]

I'm glad it worked out in the end. Different groups have different styles so what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. In the end all that matters is everyone involved had fun. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[TheOOB]

In my experience, killing the witnesses and causing explosions is the absolute worst thing for preventing the star/knight errant from getting on your tail. Local law enforcement doesn't make a habit of going after shadowrunners usually, it's dangerous, expensive, and really doesn't solve anything(runners are just deniable assets, it's Johnson who they want).

That said, when runners cause too much collateral damage, become too public, or make the polices job too easy, they pretty much have to cause some trouble. Same goes for corps as well, they tend only to chase after runners if the runners cause too much undue harm, otherwise there is no profit in going after the runners who hit your facility.

Other criminals and people with vendettas are a much bigger problem.

In any case, being paranoid and hiding evidence is good, but making it so no one wants to chase after you is better. The usefulness of astral signatures, DNA, and fingerprints in finding you is debatable, but the danger that could come from that one officer who wants you dead because your explosion killed his brother while he was walking next to the stuffer shack is very, very real.

[Saint Sithney]

Couple of things.

1) Magic forensics can't be used to track someone any more than a fingerprint can be used to follow a man. They can connect independent incidents and build a case against someone, but it's not like a floating trail right to the guy unless they've got a record of his astral fingerprint with the LS and have his current address on file. If that's the case then he is a very poor Shadowrunner.

2) Video surveillance can't record magic use. It takes a live human to see magic. Trid can likely get faces though. I doubt your crew of strangers were chowing on soyburgers wearing balaclavas That's why you need Matrix support. Shit is critical.

That said, going fully lethal on civvies, well, it's not a good look. There's a reason cleaners are a use and burn asset.