Destruction of New York, a theoretical discussion Options

[sabs]

Wouldn't anyone who tried this have a giant signature problem?
IN that their siguature would be impossible to hide and every mage in town could follow it?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Page Number please...

And not bloody likely at our table... And for a Table Reference, ALL Force 3 or lower Spirits do not spend Edge... unless you piss them off... Any Spirits Force 4+ ALWAYS spend Edge unless you have taken great pains to actually appease the spirit... Pretty much within the rules...

Keep the Faith

About the only thing I can find about pissed off spirits is that when mistreated they fight you and cause in effect a sustaining penalty when bound and being used. Edge, I can't find a thing. Summoning I can see some kind of argument against spirits using edge, but binding is resented as its seen as forced servitude instead of a deal between equals. And that screams please use edge here to me.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Wouldn't anyone who tried this have a giant signature problem?
IN that their siguature would be impossible to hide and every mage in town could follow it?

Force X complex actions is the standard. But I could see an argument that 1 it would cause a background count and that could be followed back to you, the signature would be across the entire area so you can't just clean it up. But if you want to be rules picky there is nothing like that described, it makes sense sure, but the rules don't make sense all the time, that is why there are GMs to fill in the blanks.

[Saint Sithney]

About the only thing I can find about pissed off spirits is that when mistreated they fight you and cause in effect a sustaining penalty when bound and being used. Edge, I can't find a thing. Summoning I can see some kind of argument against spirits using edge, but binding is resented as its seen as forced servitude instead of a deal between equals. And that screams please use edge here to me.

I recently decided on what I think is a reasonable means of determining when a spirit uses edge.

If a spirit's forcex3 exceeds the sum of the summoner's cha, int, log and wil stats, then he throws edge, because he resents being bound by what is obviously his mental inferior.

[Mordinvan]

Page Number please...

And not bloody likely at our table... And for a Table Reference, ALL Force 3 or lower Spirits do not spend Edge... unless you piss them off... Any Spirits Force 4+ ALWAYS spend Edge unless you have taken great pains to actually appease the spirit... Pretty much within the rules...

Keep the Faith

I think I hear New York burning... pretty much within rules.

[Mordinvan]

Well guard came out before quake so it wont be specifically mentioned but it protects from things like avalanches. It never says it protects against an avalanche unless it was caused by a spirit.

Guard
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
The Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal
environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced
by the Accident power)

Sorry, I'm not seeing protects against directed magical attack. It works against "accident", but sadly no mention of any other form of attack. Also I don't think a magically induced quake qualifies as "normal"

If you want to allow spirits to do that, it is your game. But I don't think it follows what you need to do by the letter of the rules.

Actually it does. The command 'murder everyone in this city' is a single service if the spirit could actually accomplish it.

1-6 successes count as a distraction will set off vibration sensors and a wide variety of other ancillary effects.

Wow, so you're going to blow all those binding materials for that? Hell why not just ask it to make a martini for Mr. Bond while you're at it? Hackers are cheeper, and can actually prevent the vibration sensors from picking you up, instead of alerting everyone to your presence.

Hard to do in a fight, but farking easy to do every single time you summon up a powerful spirit for the day and every time you bind. So yeah it is broken from start to finish and if manage a way to do it in combat, broken as hell there to.

So's any skill which doesn't involve pulling a trigger. Use chemistry, step 1) whip up 20kg of c-12 step 2)......... Step 3) profit

It would stop high force binding yes. And I do not have a problem with that at all. A force 4ish spirit probably could still be bound and force 3s would probably still be common. And I think in most cases long term bound spirits do follow the letter of the instruction giving as little as they can, because again they find it distasteful.

Which would mean they are not common in security applications, cause the last thing you need is a pissed off spirit pulling the fire alarm every other day.

[Mordinvan]

Wouldn't anyone who tried this have a giant signature problem?
IN that their siguature would be impossible to hide and every mage in town could follow it?

The whole shake New York thing would basicly need a motive such that the survival of the caster was not actually a consideration.

[Mordinvan]

About the only thing I can find about pissed off spirits is that when mistreated they fight you and cause in effect a sustaining penalty when bound and being used. Edge, I can't find a thing. Summoning I can see some kind of argument against spirits using edge, but binding is resented as its seen as forced servitude instead of a deal between equals. And that screams please use edge here to me.

Ya, too bad when I engaged the devs about that one, figuring the same thing, they said spirits don't do it unless previously offended by the summoner. I don't pretend to get it, cause if I'm going to kill you for trying something, I'll likely use edge to stop you, but it seems for whatever reason, spirits don't work that way.

[sabs]

BTW, having read the rules on endowment more closely. Any GM that allows the whole Sapient Kitten thing is just an idiot. Sapient for Spirits maybe listed as a Power, but /everything/ is listed as a power. It's a mistake on the part of SR not to have just listed Sapience as a trait for spirits, instead of a power.

I'd bitchslap the first player who tried to ruleslawyer it in any of my games.

AND it's not permanent, so even if I was willing to say you give a kitten sapient level intelligence, it would only be temporarily and I would rule it wouldn't count for Blood Magic Rituals.

[Mordinvan]

BTW, having read the rules on endowment more closely. Any GM that allows the whole Sapient Kitten thing is just an idiot. Sapient for Spirits maybe listed as a Power, but /everything/ is listed as a power. It's a mistake on the part of SR not to have just listed Sapience as a trait for spirits, instead of a power.

I'd bitchslap the first player who tried to ruleslawyer it in any of my games.

AND it's not permanent, so even if I was willing to say you give a kitten sapient level intelligence, it would only be temporarily and I would rule it wouldn't count for Blood Magic Rituals.

Which sadly would be a house rule. Because you're trying to cheat the system, it would be funnier to allow the player to 'think' he's bound the spirit, but have it gut him at an inopportune time. Seriously, if you're going to house rule it, make it something worth while. Maybe allow the summoner to catch on if he asesenses the spirit.
(edit)
But there is nothing stating the creature must naturally be sentient, or that the sentience of the creature used in the sacrifice need be permanent. Considering how magic is often controlled, and tainted by emotion, it actually makes perfect sense the sacrifice would only have to be experiencing the necessary feelings at the moment of the sacrifice, as unless specifically necessary for the ritual, because prior history of the victim doesn't really seem to matter.

[sabs]

I don't see how saying, no you can't use endowment to grant sapience to a dog, is cheating the system.

It's clearly a bonehead move. The Endowment power is for granting powers, not for jobbing sentience for your pet Vampire or Blood magic Ritual.

If you read the description on the power, it's clearly meant for a different purpose.

[Mordinvan]

I don't see how saying, no you can't use endowment to grant sapience to a dog, is cheating the system.

It's clearly a bonehead move. The Endowment power is for granting powers, not for jobbing sentience for your pet Vampire or Blood magic Ritual.

If you read the description on the power, it's clearly meant for a different purpose.

Actually I meant granting sapience was cheating. Its rules legal, but depending on how the 'magic' of your tradition functions, it may result in a fubar.

If all that is needed for the ritual, is the agony and fear a sentient mind experiences during the sacrificial process then this method should be just fine.
If all that is needed for the ritual, is the life force for the target, with blood and emotion as the conduit, then this method should be just fine.

If there is some other quality which the act of sacrificing produces which is needed however, and to be honest I can't really name one, then this method could potentially screw you. But the dev's have been asked if the power can grant sapience, and indeed it can.

[sabs]

Wow the Dev's disappoint in this one.

And yes, I agree granting sapience feels like cheating.

The whole spirit thing just feels broken in some way. I mean even more broken and overpowered than the Magic system already is.

[Mordinvan]

Wow the Dev's disappoint in this one.

And yes, I agree granting sapience feels like cheating.

The whole spirit thing just feels broken in some way. I mean even more broken and overpowered than the Magic system already is.

If you want broken, try banishing, and then binding a succubus. Forcing/bribing it into a power pact, and using it karma drain ability at a hedonistic night club, where maybe 30+ couples are all engaged in 'activity' at any point in time. Karma up the wazoo there. And depending on the club, its in theory possible to even have that sort of activity be 'legal' if you prostitute out the succubus, so long as the clients know it might cost some karma for the ride of their lives.

[Doc Chase]

If you want broken, try banishing, and then binding a succubus. Forcing/bribing it into a power pact, and using it karma drain ability at a hedonistic night club, where maybe 30+ couples are all engaged in 'activity' at any point in time. Karma up the wazoo there. And depending on the club, its in theory possible to even have that sort of activity be 'legal' if you prostitute out the succubus, so long as the clients know it might cost some karma for the ride of their lives.

A thrill like none other for the cost of a little bit of your soul?

Worse has happened for that price.

[Mordinvan]

A thrill like none other for the cost of a little bit of your soul?

Worse has happened for that price.

Karma, its a renewable resource.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sorry, I'm not seeing protects against directed magical attack. It works against "accident", but sadly no mention of any other form of attack. Also I don't think a magically induced quake qualifies as "normal"

It protects against normal environmental hazards what is a quake? To me it is an environmental hazard. Who gives a shit why or how it was started my spirit with guard can guard against it.
As you pointed out it is an instant power. The spirit just caused the quake, once it gets going its just a quake. Guard does not stop the hazard from happening it just protects you from it. So go ahead and quake the city there is a big earthquake and everything, no damage occurs because it was guarded against.

Actually it does. The command 'murder everyone in this city' is a single service if the spirit could actually accomplish it.

Sorry this is D&D where the wording of the wish matters. Once the spirit sees the task hits what they see as a service they are done. If you bind a spirit with Karma you can get it to do extended tasks for a year and a day. A GM can say an earthquake is a single instant task and not an extended task for which a spirit can be bound for a year and day. What are extended tasks is up to the GM to decide. You act like a general rule means players can warp things to do what ever they want and sorry that isn't so.

Wow, so you're going to blow all those binding materials for that? Hell why not just ask it to make a martini for Mr. Bond while you're at it? Hackers are cheeper, and can actually prevent the vibration sensors from picking you up, instead of alerting everyone to your presence.

Blow, what 1 service out of 2,000 nuyen to cause a distraction which increases our chance at success to increase, um yeah I'd do that. Hackers may be able to do it cheaper and easier if it is a wi-fi set up but no wi-fi on a remote system for a buildings seismic alarms does not sound like a stretch to me.

So's any skill which doesn't involve pulling a trigger. Use chemistry, step 1) whip up 20kg of c-12 step 2)......... Step 3) profit

Except force 8+summoned spirits break the game and you have them on call all the time with blood magic. Blood magic is a pile of broken fail.

Which would mean they are not common in security applications, cause the last thing you need is a pissed off spirit pulling the fire alarm every other day.

Force 3 does not mean retard spirits. Force 3 provides solid security, it just isn't good in a fight.

[Doc Chase]

I don't think anyone denies blood magic is a pile of broken.

So then, let's change the thought experiement. Throw blood magic out. How would you do it?

[Mordinvan]

It protects against normal environmental hazards what is a quake? To me it is an environmental hazard. Who gives a shit why or how it was started my spirit with guard can guard against it.
As you pointed out it is an instant power. The spirit just caused the quake, once it gets going its just a quake. Guard does not stop the hazard from happening it just protects you from it. So go ahead and quake the city there is a big earthquake and everything, no damage occurs because it was guarded against.

Well fire is a normal environmental hazard, so it protects against fire ball. Heavy metal poisoning is also a normal environmental hazard especially in areas of acidic soil, so it should protect against drinking cadnium. Cyanide is found naturally almonds and apple seeds, so it protects against cyanide. Car accidents are normal environmental hazards in cities, so it protects against people tying to run you down. Burning to death is a normal hazard in the middle of a pyroclastic flow, so it protects against being immersed in lava. Vitas was a naturally occurring virus, so it portects you against infections and diseases....

No sorry, no where does it list earth quakes as something it protects against. Guard keeps you from being "unlucky" and if your building is touching the ground there is no amount of 'luck' which is going to change that. A 10 on the Richter scale will demolish pretty much everything.

Sorry this is D&D where the wording of the wish matters. Once the spirit sees the task hits what they see as a service they are done. If you bind a spirit with Karma you can get it to do extended tasks for a year and a day. A GM can say an earthquake is a single instant task and not an extended task for which a spirit can be bound for a year and day. What are extended tasks is up to the GM to decide. You act like a general rule means players can warp things to do what ever they want and sorry that isn't so.

Actually that is where you're wrong. A character can bind a spirit to 'protect him' for a year and a day. Every time that character is attacked during that year, the spirit will is obligated to intervene. It will also do so in what ever way it sees fit, and whether or not the character actually wants it to happen at this point. A service can and does include a virtually unlimited number of uses of the spirits powers so long as all those powers are directed towards a single goal.

Blow, what 1 service out of 2,000 nuyen to cause a distraction which increases our chance at success to increase, um yeah I'd do that. Hackers may be able to do it cheaper and easier if it is a wi-fi set up but no wi-fi on a remote system for a buildings seismic alarms does not sound like a stretch to me.

Does to me, its way cheaper to use wi-fi then to run cables everywhere. Is also cheaper to rig a stolen car to crash into a building, or do the same with a stolen plane.

Except force 8+summoned spirits break the game and you have them on call all the time with blood magic. Blood magic is a pile of broken fail.

Would you like a tissue?

Force 3 does not mean retard spirits. Force 3 provides solid security, it just isn't good in a fight.

Force 3 provides spirits intelligent enough to be malicious for being forced into long term binding. If you claim long term binding is universally loathed by spirits as you have, then it would not be a common security procedure.

[Mordinvan]

It protects against normal environmental hazards what is a quake? To me it is an environmental hazard. Who gives a shit why or how it was started my spirit with guard can guard against it.
As you pointed out it is an instant power. The spirit just caused the quake, once it gets going its just a quake. Guard does not stop the hazard from happening it just protects you from it. So go ahead and quake the city there is a big earthquake and everything, no damage occurs because it was guarded against.

Well fire is a normal environmental hazard, so it protects against fire ball. Heavy metal poisoning is also a normal environmental hazard especially in areas of acidic soil, so it should protect against drinking cadnium. Cyanide is found naturally almonds and apple seeds, so it protects against cyanide. Car accidents are normal environmental hazards in cities, so it protects against people tying to run you down. Burning to death is a normal hazard in the middle of a pyroclastic flow, so it protects against being immersed in lava. Vitas was a naturally occurring virus, so it portects you against infections and diseases....

No sorry, no where does it list earth quakes as something it protects against. Guard keeps you from being "unlucky" and if your building is touching the ground there is no amount of 'luck' which is going to change that. A 10 on the Richter scale will demolish pretty much everything.

Sorry this is D&D where the wording of the wish matters. Once the spirit sees the task hits what they see as a service they are done. If you bind a spirit with Karma you can get it to do extended tasks for a year and a day. A GM can say an earthquake is a single instant task and not an extended task for which a spirit can be bound for a year and day. What are extended tasks is up to the GM to decide. You act like a general rule means players can warp things to do what ever they want and sorry that isn't so.

Actually that is where you're wrong. A character can bind a spirit to 'protect him' for a year and a day. Every time that character is attacked during that year, the spirit will is obligated to intervene. It will also do so in what ever way it sees fit, and whether or not the character actually wants it to happen at this point. A service can and does include a virtually unlimited number of uses of the spirits powers so long as all those powers are directed towards a single goal.

Blow, what 1 service out of 2,000 nuyen to cause a distraction which increases our chance at success to increase, um yeah I'd do that. Hackers may be able to do it cheaper and easier if it is a wi-fi set up but no wi-fi on a remote system for a buildings seismic alarms does not sound like a stretch to me.

Does to me, its way cheaper to use wi-fi then to run cables everywhere. Is also cheaper to rig a stolen car to crash into a building, or do the same with a stolen plane.

Except force 8+summoned spirits break the game and you have them on call all the time with blood magic. Blood magic is a pile of broken fail.

edit: to each their own.

Force 3 does not mean retard spirits. Force 3 provides solid security, it just isn't good in a fight.

Force 3 provides spirits intelligent enough to be malicious for being forced into long term binding. If you claim long term binding is universally loathed by spirits as you have, then it would not be a common security procedure.

[Mordinvan]

I don't think anyone denies blood magic is a pile of broken.

So then, let's change the thought experiement. Throw blood magic out. How would you do it?

Possess a sub orbital, and have it dive into the city while overloading is fusion core.

Or use the sucubus combo I spoke of above, and steal Karma till you have 60 magic, and levels in initiation, with centering, and other such metal magics, and do it yourself. At some adult themed clubs it's possible to rake in 30ish a night. So 'work' for 2 years and save up. By the time you're done, you'll be able to asplode cities if you feel like it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think I hear New York burning... pretty much within rules.

Not if you can't summon, bind, and then invoke the Spirit you don't... You still have not provided a way for the Spirit to realistically be summoned, bound and then invoked yet... Spirit spending edge to oppose the summoner (will pretty much insure that the summoner dies) is still going to stop your plans...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which would mean they are not common in security applications, cause the last thing you need is a pissed off spirit pulling the fire alarm every other day.

Which I believe was the point being made... You will not see Force 8+ Spirits in this situation...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ya, too bad when I engaged the devs about that one, figuring the same thing, they said spirits don't do it unless previously offended by the summoner. I don't pretend to get it, cause if I'm going to kill you for trying something, I'll likely use edge to stop you, but it seems for whatever reason, spirits don't work that way.

And yet, nowhere is that in the books, or the Errata... Amazing that...

Keep the Faith

[sabs]

FIrst off, even 8 hits on the table isn't a 10 on the Richter scale. A 10 on the Richter scale is when the top layer of ground liquefies.

8 Many buildings collapse, crevasses appear in pavement and
open ground.

"Many buildings" could be 10, 12. Maybe even 20. BUt not the '100's' that exist in Manhattan.
Also, "places that are susceptible to them." That would not be NYC in 2072. Most of the buildings are built to withstand siesmic events. And, I could see binding earth spirits, specifically to protect Manhattan Inc buildings.

The sprawl would suffer, but it' the sprawl.. sorta to be expected.