the topic is what it is ...

before you start freaking out

I assure you that the ability is out there to level a whole city or at least a Sizable portion of one ...

and yes it is available to land in a players hand

so my question is .... how would one handle this .... aside from the Obvious Noterity and public awareness gain of 10+ for the simple act ....the Mana Ebbs / Voids extending from the epicenter due to the massive and sudden loss of Life as well as character retirement becoming mandatory

Hmmm... is this an SRM in-game threat against NYC?
If the gauntlet has been thrown, I suspect PCs themselves would not take kindly to being vaporized....

Citation needed.

in SRM under the Invoking Rules

an Earth spirit with the appropriate success test gains Quake

Quake as listed on p 102

Reads as follows

Quake
Type: P • Action:Complex •Range:Special •Duration: Instant
The spirit can create earthquakes with potentially devastating
effects in areas which are particularly vulnerable to them.
The quake affects an area with a radius of (spirit’s Force) kilometers,and
the shaking persists intermittently for (Force) minutes.
Areas especially vulnerable to earthquakes are usually not areas
that receive them frequently, as people in those areas tend to
build dwellings with earthquakes in mind. An earthquake that
has little effect in the San Francisco might be very destructive
were it in Istanbul. The spirit makes a Magic+Willpower Test
and the number of hits represents the magnitude of the quake, as
noted on the Quake Table (p.101).


the quake table is also as follows

QUAKE TABLE
While the effects of an individual quake are highly dependent upon
the conditions of surrounding soil, the quality of engineering, and the
preparedness of the surrounding citizenry, the following vague guidelines
can be used:
Hits Effects
1 Motion detectors useless for the duration; sleeping people awaken.
2 Top-heavy objects fall; unlatched doors and windows swing open or shut.
3 Furniture shifts; objects fall of shelves in bulk; drivers of land vehicles must make Vehicle Tests.
4 Ordinary buildings damaged; doors jam; mine fields detonate.
5 Furniture overturns; windows break;entire area considered diffcult ground.
6 Freestanding fences, walls, and trees sag or fall over; gas lines are unsafe.
7 Roadways become impassable;some buildings collapse.
8 Many buildings collapse, crevasses appear in pavement and open ground.

now when we look at this .... the proposed Idea is a Force 8 invoked Earth ... giving a Radius of 8km or a Diameter of 16km (or 9.94193908 miles).....

now Imagine that a possession tradition with the channeling metamagic feat is involved where the spirit possesses the Magician and the magician uses his own edge to augment the spirits use of the power

now place this into downtown Manhattan ....

I am by no means a Geoligist ... but my own research into this via Wiki and all that makes the prospect of this for me a tad scary .... In the example of the Quake it mentions Istanbul .... being that Istanbul
is on the North side of Turkey while the Closest tectonic plate is south of Turkeys southern most border I Reason that the Idea of this is indeed possible ... as well as the fact that there have been Earthquakes in the new york area before with the largest recorded being a 5.8 on the Richtor scale in 1944

now lets get into the approximate energy equivalents in terms of TNT explosive force... this energy is released underground so that the force is dispersed through the earths crust ....

a magnitude 8.0 Earthquake is 15 megatons
a magnitude 9.0 Earthquake is 476 megatons
10.0 is around 15 gigatons
then the Yucatán Peninsula impact which created the Chicxulub crater (credited with the extinction of the dinosaurs) was estimated at 13.0 magnitude and 476 teratons (no this was not an earthquake but is included as an estimate of the force of this type of event)

The Following is an Excerpt from a yahoo answers about a magnitude 10.0 Earthquake

"It is thought that the energy required to cause the earth's crust to fail (ie, a measure of the maximum energy that can be stored in the crust before it gives way) is somewhere between magnitude 9 and 10, and therefore an earthquake of magnitude 10 would not occur."


A friend asked me "Why are you applying science to an RPG when the Word Magic comes into it" the answer is The end Effect can be measured scientifically

so based on all of this .... how would one handle such an event

Ah, yes. That was a considered option during a recent demolition themed run, and rejected for causing too much collateral damage. Someone attempting this wouldn't be very long for the world, even if they were successful...

So, did this actually happen in your own SRM universe, or are you advocating this as a method of mass destruction?

Well this debate came up when the Quake power was first introduced in Shadowrun. The problem is the Quake power, not what you could do with it in Manhattan, specifically.

If you're the type of GM to not somehow bar this power from being used to it's full potential, then there isn't really anything to say. The PCs do it, part of Manhattan is levelled, econo-politcal balances shift, UCAS invades under the pretext of 'helping', etc. The ramifications are well beyond the scope of SRM. You either decide that someone, somewhere sees this coming and stops the player from doing it, or Manhattan is destroyed.

Or a whole bunch of free spirits and astrally projecting cops spend an Edge to go first and nuke the posessing mage using their unpublished, unlimited stats.

Just because you can escalate a situation doesn't mean you should...

the question is not weather I "Would" Allow it .... its that this would be a missions char and as Missions is a Global Campaign and as such I cant Disallow it

I was unaware that this Debate has come up before ... tho I dont doubt it did as this is potentially the most destructive power I have seen in SR4

Personnaly, I would downplay the effects. "Manhattan buildings are meant to survive quakes". Sure, it would be massive damage, but I wouldn't play it as strong as it is supposed to be. Would the player be disapointed? Probably. It's either that or you wreck manhattan, and next week there is no mention of it. In either case, it won't really work well.

good news is this is all theoretical ATM ... nothing has happened yet ... I was approached with this concept last wed night and began a LOT of research on massive quakes trying to find stuff out ... Hell we haven't even cleared Denver yet

my main thing here was .... how would it be handled and I got my answer ....

So, would the small armies of elementals that the Corps in NY have on hand be able to do anything to negate this Quake?



-karma

Channelling doesn't allow this, unless it's stated in an errata. As written in SM, you share control of the vessal's motor skills, and the possessed can use his own skills. Everything else follows standard possession, and that doesn't allow sharing Edge. This is academic, b/c I believe in the last game I GM'd a player bound a greater form force 11 spirit (not earth though), so it's possible to get a spirit large enough to have 8 net hits.





First, a major city like this would be built to with stand this power. I'm sure a mad bomber tried this more than once. Second, it's very likely that with all the divination, that both corp and NYPD would have a warning a week out. I could see a montly, "Anything going to destroy my corp/city this month" divination being asked as a safty protocol.

Heh. I would completely agree with you.

Except. Well.

One word:

Bridge.



-karma

ok so at least that removes the use of edge from the equation because I know for sure that a spirit of nature (Earth) while would allow its power to be used to Wreak havoc on new york ... causing permenant damage to the Earth in the form of something with the sheer power of the Yukitan impact is not something it would allow ....





and TBH I doubt New York would be prepared for something like this .... with the Mention of Istanbul in the description of quake using Tectonic maps ... Istanbul is Closer to a fault line than New York.... but I do see your point


also which spell allows this sort of advanced Warning point it out to me and you may very Well Save New York

NYC was already levelled by a quake. Most likely, the new buildings are all fairly quake resistant. I'd look at the big quakes out around LA and treat it very similar. There is plenty of destruction, death, fires, etc. Response moves in faster, however, and the fires are put out quickly. With so much security, there's not a lot of rioting. And all of the places with money are well protected, so minimal damage there.

Tie that in with how the US responded to 9/11. Within about two days they know who did it, have sent shamans to the earth metaplane to get your signature and chat up the spirit involved. They know where you are going. They are happy to ship anyone you know overseas for a vacation chat for a few years. They have cameras in every airport watching for you and a hundred million nuyen reward for any smuggler who brings you in. Since it isn't the UCAS after you but the corporations who now own NYC, it wouldn't be limited to just UCAS territory either - it would be everywhere the corporations operate (and it would be all of the corporations.) Within a week you're caught. Then they'll make an awfully nice show about how much it sucks to spend your own overseas vacation in Atzlan for a few years.

Source ?

It's been a canon event since the original SR. Manhattan was devastated by an earthquake in 2005, which is why the Stock Exchange was moved to Boston until the 2nd Crash. The city was rebuilt by the members of the MDC on top of the rubble of the old Manhattan.

huh so it is .... 1 part of the history I seemed to have missed

Additionally great form earth spirits were used in the raising of buildings like the flat iron building to their post quake city level, as a GM I would have no qualms about telling the PC it doesn't work as there are great forms on call to coutner such an event. However my fix for this is:

Look the player right in the eye and say firmly and calmly; "Don't be a dick."

If they persist firmly and calmly tell them to leave the table and not return until they value your and the other players time. A requirement to let things work by the rules isn't a free license to ruin things for the other 4-5 people at the table, the same fix that works in a home game works here. This is my standard policy for dealign with disruptive players regardless of type, because we all know that guy, that guy who wants to pick a fight with the other PC's because they didn't choose his "brilliant" plan, why let that guy run the show, you are the GM, the show stops with you.

My take on it would be to have the spirit flat out refuse or at the very least have a passing free spirit walk over and give someone a slapping at the vital moment. No magical being in their right mind would allow the kind of background count/rift to be created in their back yard. Such an extraordinary act requires far more than your average spirit summoning/binding i.e. the great Ghost Dance ritual.

Hmm, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered. A run-of-the-mill, non-toxic spirit might refuse to perform destruction on this scale. Then again, why have the Quake power in the first place, it's inherently mass-destructive. Could be argued quakes are natually occuring in the first place and mother nature is a tough bitch. Could go either way, really.

WingKnight, you're brilliant.

The Ghost Dance was to unleash magic, not to command a spirit. The rules clearly state that the spirit obeys you, no where does it even mention they have a D&D Efreeti like chance to twist your wording. I'd personally find your answer deux ex machina and I'd be very disappointed. I'd rather be told "No. Don't be a dick" than have the rules twisted against my character.

Normal spirits are also not bound to a place on this plane, its backyard is a metaplane somewhere.

While I obviously prefer my method I believe you could definitely make the case for a great form spirit having more will and concern then a run of the mill spirit, of course you could just as easily make the argument that it might come up with a personality that won't give a crap about causing destruction a spirit that might enjoy it. Non-toxic does not necessarily equal good.

There are two basic things that need to be addressed here.

Nothing new under the sun theory: Just because something is out there and theoretically possible your character is likely not the first to think of it, why doesn't it happen all the time? I think a GM has a right to come up with plausable reasons why things wouldn't work. Three times now completely independant of each other I've had characters come to me wanting to use the chemistry skill/nanites/whatever to get through walls. I always have to explore with them the potential downsides and draw backs, the usual easy fix is substituting one problem for another. THeir wall eating solution is silent but creates a horrible smell, is too expensive to be used for most runs etc etc. I feel earthquake falls into that category.

Consequences: I believe that Shadowrun even more then most RPG's is about infinite choices but also the consequences that go along with. Missions partially because of constraints of the medium doesn't always reflect that. I do not believe that is a free license to run roughshod over things. I do not believe for example if in monkeywrench the team decides to ambush the oncoming security in the parking lot that NYPD inc might not roll an appropriate resposne for a large scale gunfight in broad daylight in downtown manhattan. I believe that a GM has the duty and the right to come up with realistic responses to characters actions and try and shift things back to the mod. For things like this that are so outside the pale I think the best option is an out of character one.


That's my take on it.

And if you are not caught a ritual assassination team will cause each of you to start exploding in a spectacularly destructive fashion a few days later.

If they just took it 24 miles north of NYC to the Indian Point Energy Center, they could cause a meltdown which would render the entire Northeastern US uninhabitable for 500 years.

You know, since we're talking about terrible ideas which would ruin games and all...

Ruin games? Dude, you could introduce mutants into the setting, Deadlands: Hell On Earth meets Shadowrun!

Having the means to destroy a city so easily achievable raises the question why it's not done all the time (especailly by toxics). Bringing up various deus-ex-machina counter measures often opens a bigger can of worms, making players ask why other things work with such measures in place.

The hunted quality for maximum BP, dossier on file and 10+1d0 megacorporate enemies built by the group connection rules are appropriate. Not to him but to the other PC too (guilty by association).

The site as such would have a warp-level background count, but unless there is a nuke involved, I see no voids happening.


Yeah, and the UCAS would get their own SOX. Fun!

Personally, I'd say a number of sustained large-scale detection spells anchored in critical places, divination, and every elemental in corp service available being thrown on the PC attempting this and using Edge to go before him would suffice to make this end badly and with little destroyed city. That, or let them do it and kill them for it. With a fair Offplay warning about the fate of the 9/11 attackers of course, so they know what they're getting into.

Plus shedims. Zombie-hunting in the ruins of New York, while mutants shoot you with radiation spells! That would make for a cheesy game par excellence!

Shadowrun meets Fallout

which I could be pursaded to play

MAGIC RADIOACTIVE MUTANT ZOMBIES in the ruins of New York. Awesome. I MUST use this, at the very least as a Sim.

Reminds me that I always wanted to make soemthing like a campaign out of Surf Nazis Must Die. Or Erotic Nights Of The Living Dead (which I also have to find and watch before, but that title had me fall off my chair laughing).

Errrr why was this topic stealth moved? The context was originally related to missions and was more or less asked and answered in a pass. If the OP had wanted a general discussion of consequences for a given cities destruction they sure could have asked it here.

My parents live just north of New York city. I was raised there. I suppose it has not occured to any of you that this might be a deeply destrubing topic, especially after 9/11.

With due respect DLN: As opposed to any of a thousand horrible things that have happened in the Shadowrun time line or the destruction that has already occurred in NYC? Once agian in the main forum this thread is out of context by it's placement.

Isn't the topic interesting for non-Missions-players/GMs too?

Sigh

And I grew up in NYC.
It's not any more disturbing than Escape from NY, or I am Legend.
Or 2012 where NYC is literally drowned in a tidal wave so large it dwarfs the Empire State Building.
or in Independence Day when Aliens blow up large chunks of NYC.

This is a world setting where VITAS occured. VITAS makes the black plague looks all cuddly.
If after almost 10 years, you find the idea of something bad happening to NYC in a Fictional Role-playing game as 'disturbing' perhaps you need to get some help with your PTSD.

You're probably one of those people who thought that having images of the Twin Towers in Spiderman 2 was deeply insulting, and that it was a good thing that they edited them out.

Did you ever go up the Twin Towers? Because I did. Often. Not as often as someone who worked there. But probably a dozen times in my life. I took my HS Prom date to the restaurant on top. I still think about that view. So get off your high horse. This is a /roleplaying game/ as gm's and players we have all sorts of crazy shit in our games.

The context of the topic, per the authors clarification was how to handle it within the context of the missions campaign a seperate topic could be started on how to handle the rediculous quake power in SR, but that should in my opinion be a separate topic.

I don't know if this will help any but food for thought: IIRC part of Vancouver Regional, SSC (BC, Canada) - Richmond was destroyed by an earthquake, one that was rumored to be magical because it didn't seem to harm the surrounding region as much. That was in a SR novel suggested to me that the name of is escaping me at the moment. The wiki page makes note of it as well but not the magic rumor (2059 - December 3, An earthquake levels Richmond on the outskirts of Vancouver.)

Could this have been caused by this power? Whatever may have happened to whoever caused that one?

My concern is it is about someone TRYING to destroy the city not a natrual disaster. Like the song says:
I've seen the lights go out on Broadway
I watched the mighty skyline fall...

This is also a game where players routinely TRY to murder and kill and steal and do generally awful things for money. I think it goes without saying that no one is advocating actual mass destruction on any scale. I don't think it is at all fair to pull the I'm offended and you should all be more sensitive card. Not when we are talking in a game context.

I also object to you refering to it as 'playing the card.' You apparently think it is 'unfair' when someone says they are offended by such ideas? I am expressing a very real concern and sentiment.
Sure it is a game where people regularly do illegal things but this whole thread is based on 'how do I commit mass murder." Would you say the same thing as ok if someone set up a thread asking how to set up gas chambers and cremetoriums for a final solution? I would hope there was a stop line but apparently there is not.

There is a stop line.
But you're way over reacting.

And if the question was:
I'm thinking of having a plot line where a Polis Club has taken over some area and is trying to come up with ways of exterminating anyone who isn't human. That would be a valid topic of discussion. Both what would be feasible in 2072, and what the powers that be reactions might be.

I would also find the topic of discussing the effects of a Dirty Bomb Explosion in London, or LA, or NYC.

If you're really offended, perhaps you need to examine why.

Actually, it is more about "how to handle a player perfectly capable of mass murder and very willing to commit it next weekend", as I understood it.

Honestly, if you are on meds you should take them. If you are not on meds perhaps you should look into getting some. No one asked ways to destroy the city someone asked a question about what to do in the event players wanted to use the quake power in a missions module and what possible repercussions or actions a GM could take in the mission legal game. What you are advocating, or at least getting offended by the lack of, if thought police. For a topic you do not fully understand. You have the ability to be offended we have the ability to be suprised by how easily you are offended, especially in the context of the game world.

I'll start by apologizing for the playing the card statement. Looking back I can see that it could be offensive and I should have been less blunt. I did not mean to offend nor did intend to make slight of your feelings. I'll try to clarify what I meant. Terrible things happen all the time in the scope of this game and as the game's unofficial 'official' forum they are bound to be discussed here,sometimes in great detail. This being science fiction, parallels with real life are inevitable. But I think you misunderstand the intent of the thread. This is not a "how to commit mass murder" thread. This game being what it is, that is already known. Same as "how to murder someone". The game, in its very rulebook, discusses this at length. I think the intent was how to handle this or if it is even feasible. If you are sensitive about a certain topic, I'd suggest you do not read it. With a thread titled Destruction of New York, I think you knew what you were getting in to to a certain extent. But the way you worded your post it sounded like you were basically saying "I can't believe how insensitive you pricks are being". Maybe not the way you intended it, but that's the way I interpreted it.

I'm happy accept your graciously worded apology. I know it is a game setting where the players are criminals. We have had games in NYC that have included violence but the idea of someone planning city wide destruction, not stopping a villain from doing it but being the actor is unpleasant and unnerving. I am serious about having seen the sky line fall. I think for most New Yorkers the idea of someone planning such mass murder, even in a game setting is unnerving and seems to be making light of 9/11. Hunting down such a person, would be a wonderful game. I'm sure outside of the New York area it is not as traumatic.

I hate to play the 'nazi' card, and here I'll accept that term, which is over blown, but I would liken it, as I did, to maybe a Jewish gamer reading about someone asking how to set up death camps and ethnic clensing. again, thank you for your apology and thoughtful words over our disagreement.

I saw the skyline fall too.
I still think you're being way over reactive.

"Some see planes and wonder 'Where will I go?'
Elsewhere, some see planes, then they're shattered into stars."

I'd like to raise another point about Quake.
Instant Tsunamis on demand.

Gotta say that this power is asinine.

If they have not bound the spirit yet have it use edge to resist them. Force 8 16 dice+another 8 edge dice all of which explodes, probably 10 successes on average or 30 drain. I'd like to see them soak that. Also even at force 8 the great form spirit is probably getting 5 hits on the test so I don't think that is in the mass destruction column especially since in NY2.0 after the first quake it is probably built fairly well. So if I were to run it I'd likely have a handful of building collapse due to shoddy and corrupt building materials practices but otherwise have the city whole and pissed off.