It would not protect against the fireball, but if the fireball started fires it would protect against that. And you are right it did not list earthquake it instead said environmental hazards. Coming up with a list of every environmental hazard would take a bit too much space when just saying environmental hazard would do the trick. If you decide to rule that damage form an earthquake is not an environmental hazard go for it. Don't pretend it is a rules decision though its just a judgment call. And if you want to continue to make judgment calls that make quake worse and then complain about quake that is your prerogative.

1. Guard can protect against it if you decide to call an earthquake an environmental hazard.
2. Blood magic is generally not available to players and is recommended not to be available because it is unbalanced.
3. They expressly state spirits do not like to be bound, have high force spirits use edge.

Mostly thought of something else later, and didn't feel like altering the original post to avoid problems of being misquoted.

double post

True, but the same can be said of anything which can be used in a dangerous fashion.

No, it doesn't. The protagonist need not be a nice person or even a good one. It simple means the 'first actor', or the central character in a story. The antagonist is the person opposing the protagonist, which COULD be a nice or even a good person.


Ahem: most evil bastard who sacrifices kittens for power? Seriously listen to yourself, you might have some traction if it was babies or something, but seriously. "Hello 911." "Yes I'm calling to report a most evil bastard, my next door neighbor keeps buying kittens, and they keep disappearing. I think he's killing them." "Mam, you do realize there it is a crime to make prank calls to 911? I'm hanging up now."

As I didn't specifiy SR4A, but instead the BBB which SR4A is not, no, I don't.


The relevant section says spirits will become a pain in the ass of the summoner AFTER the summoner has provoked them and not before. So long as the summoner is behaving according to his tradition, this is not going to be a problem.


Hence my 2 previous statement about you bring wrong because this makes them untenable in security applications. When you have a spirit who will go as far out of their way as physically possible to render their services to you detrimental as opposed to beneficial, you cease having useful tools and have liabilities. Because the book clearly indicates this is NOT the case, I can safely conclude you are wrong.

Potato, Potato... And go ahead and practice your cat slaying in real life and find out just how fast a police response will be sent... things like this are frowned upon in real life, why do you think that it will be okay in a game?

The fact is that Blood Mages (the kind lsited in the Threats section of the book) are not allowed as a player character... Rationalize it all you want, bu the fact remains that they are not Player Characters for a reason... If you were playing someone who uses his own blood as a focus for your magic, while that may be called blood magic, it is not what the books are talking about... The book describes Sacrificing Sentient Beings to gain power... no matter how you slice that, you cannot escape it. Those types of characters are not allowed for Players... They are Threatsz for the Player to bring down if they can...

No one said you had to be nice as a Protagonist... It is after all Shadowrun where you play a criminal, who performs criminal acts... Blood Magic falls under the "Hell No you can't play that" heading. If you wish to do so, no one can stop you, but do not pretend that it is within the rules for being a Player Character, as it obviously is not...

Keep the Faith

By this logic, it can not 'guard' against the first magical quake/fireball, but can against any subsequent 'natural' quakes/fires. Also guard protects against bad luck, so unless you can explain how good luck is going to prevent the bottom of your building from being in contact with the ground, and transferring the motion up the building.....


Given cities in SR HAVE been devastated by quakes and guard existed then, it makes sense that guard can not protect against earthquakes, because if it could, those quakes could not have had the effect they did. Guard protects against bad luck, and miss fortune, and accidents. The most potent example is dealing with heat stroke and drowning, please have some sense of scale. By your interpretation, using Guard on earth would protect the from the sun exploding because its a 'natural hazard'. Guard could prevent a vase from falling off a pedestal as a building shakes, but will do nothing to prevent it from being crushed when the building collapses on top of it because of the 'natural hazard' of gravity pulling the building down. If you think you're safe to stand on a beach as a 5000 ft tall tidal wave rushed towards you, because you have 'guard' up, you are clearly giving that ability far more power then I ever would.


I'm sorry, but since this ability can make a quake hit in the middle of the canadian shield, hundreds of miles away from any fault lines, the quake is NOT natural, any more then fire from a fireball is natural.


I don't actually see there being a huge problem with it. Anything can be 'abused' to make it unbalanced, and I also tend to never any have power present in a game which is ONLY available to you're evil NPC clone, as abilities like that just piss me off. There is seriously nothing which prevents a player from learning all the tricks of the trade and using them as well as anyone else. There are however consequences for doing so, and if the player is not very careful about where, when, and how they use the blood magic, it will come back to bite them.


already addressed this exact point 3 times now, not repeating myself.

double post

Just because YOU do not see a problem with Blood Magic does not invalidate that everyone else around you does... Blood Magic is not meant for Players... If you choose to use them as such, that is definitely your choice, but your choice does not invalidate the text in the book... the book states that they should not be made available for Players...

Keep the Faith

All this talk of killing kittens is making me hungry, I wonder where my neighbors cat is...

Yes, but the problem with the text as I see it, is it relates blood sacrifice to being 'twisted'. If that's the case, the every catholic on the planet is 'twisted' as they ritually partake in the blood sacrifice of their god every week on sunday.

But can you grant it sapience first? I hear sapient creatures are extra tastey.

BUT, Catholics do not sacrifice Sentient Creatures... Transubstantiation is not Blood Sacrifice of a Sentient Human, it is a Symbolic Representation of Christ's personal sacrifice... Your argument is not correct in that regard... And before you say that Christ was Sacrificed to provide magical power, Just don't go there. Christ was Sentenced to Die by the Romans for Transgressions agains the Empire (even if they were trumped charges), which is not the same as Ritual Sacrifice... The last Supper (and its attendant passages in the Bible) are symbolic in nature...

Blood Sacrifice as they have named it in the books uses Ritualized Sacrifice of a Sentient Being, which is VERY TWISTED... However, If you were to use your own blood, cut from your body as you cast a spell as a component (note that it would not do anything for you, except maybe count as a Fetish for Drain Purposes, assuming that your spells were learned that way), then I would have no problems with your definition of Blood Magic... that is perfectly acceptable, as no one but yourself is hurt, and it represents a personal sacrifice on your part...

However, once you turn to Ritually Sacrificing Sentient Beings, well, then you have crossed the line, and have become Twisted, with all the connotations that that brings... and as such would no longer be allowed to play the character, as those types of Blood Mages are not for player characters...

Keep the Faith

As the catholic belief is that the wine and bread undergo transubstantiation, and become the blood and flesh of their god, who according to the religious tradition was tortured, and murdered. Ya actually, they do. Also as should be noted, nothing says a) the blood can't belong to the caster or some other willing volunteer, and b) that the sacrifice must be fatal.


Actually if you look at the catholic dogma on the matter it isn't symbolic. The 'substance' of the cracker is actually changed according to them, same for the wine.


By the catholic religion, Jesus knew his death was coming and allowed it to happen to unleash some kind of magical power to wash away to sins of mankind. Which is utter crap, but whatever. The parallels to how big D committed suicide and used blood magic to prevent the horrors from crossing over is actually uncanny. I really hate the break this to you, but this isn't really a point you have any traction on.


Actually any damage inducing blood letting done with a melee implement will suffice. The wound need not be life threatening, or even deep.


Not when you compare it to most of the wet work some runners do. Its actually rather run of the mill.


Wow must suck to play in your games. Runners can only steal their own cars, break into their own apartments, and rob their own bank accounts. Sorry, but the vast majority of the runner world plays by the law of rob from the rich and give to themselves. I don't see why you expect blood mages to be any different.


Yep no runner has ever taken someone's life, for fun or profit before, so I can fully see why you would be so upset about a mage doing it. I mean all those guns and grenades the samurai have are just for show after all. The lmg's on the riggers drones actually spray love and candy. They're quite the riot at children's parties. Oh no wait. life in the 6th age is cheap as a cup of coffee and twice as black. Murder for profit are as common as they ever have been in human history, and corporations routinely kill/displace/experiment on dozens to hundreds of people at a time to benefit themselves. You have a very interesting double standard, and I think you really need to have a look at it.

Whole lot of text... no need to continue to post it...

Seeing as how you are predicating negating a ton of Drain for Summoning, you would have to inflict Fatal Lethal damage (as in the target dies) and it must be done in a single attack (Takes 2 Complex Actions by the way, PRIOR to casting your spell) and damage inflicted reduces the Drain DV point for point... And I still say that you could not totally negate the damage inflicted from a Edge Resisted Attempt at Invoking a Force 8+ Spirit, as the damage would be monstrous indeed (on the probable order of 30+ Boxes)

I will avoid further talk on Catholocism, as it really is not that relevant, and Religion is against the TOS when not related to Shadowrun, the line of which I believe we have indeed crossed.

As the book specifically indicates that Twisted Metamagic Techniques remain outside the purview of normal characters, it is a Houserule at best that allows you to use it, and does not fly at any tables that I have had an association with (including at Conventions)...

However, I would definitely allow you taking a Tradition of Magic, and learning the associated spells with the Fetish limitation (Blood), and use YOUR own blood (inflicted upon casting, Damage not necessarliy needing to be added as actual damage track; And I would not allow any one else's blood to suffice at all) for the -2 Drain that a fetish limited Spell provides... This is a FAR cry from the Twisted Metamagic that is discussed in Street Magic (Though it may indeed have several points of similarity), but would still be a bit of a risk, as many would not be able to tell the difference between the Fetish Limited Spell vs. The Actual Twisted Magician using Sacrifie Metamagic. I would also not allow the Summoning of Blood Spirits (nor the Calling of Same) for someone who was using the Fetish Liomited Spell...

For the Flavor of Blood MAgic, that would be as far as I would allow for a Player Character... Anything else is the purview of the GM...

As Always, your points are interesting, even if I do not agree with them...

Keep the Faith

Double Posted by Mistake... Ooops!

Keep the Faith

Sorry, about that, my bad. I thought any melee attack could do it. As for the rest of your other objections, in this specific instance we're talking about someone leveling a city, and possibly killing millions of people, and you're worried that he 'extra evil' because he wants to stab someone while doing it? Seriously that's your problem? Ok..... "Run along kids, and have fun committing genocide, just don't commit murder while you're at it."
As for getting 30+ drain off a force 8 spirits, there's a good chance if it edges, which depending on the casters tradition it won't. By the time I'm ready to level a whole city, I'm likely rather toxic/insane, and its more then likely any spirit I'm summoning would get a giggle out of blowing up a city.


Your choice, but as it was drawing directly parallels between real world religions, magical traditions, and in game events, I do not believe you are correct.


There is no house rule required. A house rule would be needed if it said 'players can NOT learn this'. It just says its twisted, and unless the player is twisted they should not learn this.


As I can point to several references in real world holy books where the god(s) are demanding payment in lifes blood, I can quite easily see the sacrifice metamagic being far more wide spread then you or even the book is willing to permit. Jephthah after all was able to purchase defeat of the children of Ammon, and all the god wanted in return was the life's blood of his daughter. Its really far more common in religion then anyone cares to admit, which is part of why everyone is so squeamish about it, but seriously, its no different then any other form of murder. SR has yet to comment on if human souls survive death, and to the best of my knowledge there is no evidence to suggest they do, so whether the soul is extinguished through natural processes, wiped out in a ritual, or even if the ritual has any effect on the soul at all, they have not said. So to pin this one form of death as being more terrible then all the others runners face and inflict is making a mountain out of a molehill.

There is no argument that many religions throughout history have required Blood Sacrifice... most of them (though by no means all), however, drew the line at animals... What makes this form of Blood Magic so reprehensible (when lives are sacrificed) is the Life that is being sacrificed...

As I said before, I have no problem with the Magician who wants to treat Blood as a personal Fetish... I do (as well as the authors of the books), however, draw a distinction when you are so reprehensible enough to take a Sentient Beings life for the purposes of Magical Power... Call it a Trope (or some other term of your liking), if you will, but Literature also tends to draw that line... I just see no need to gratify that through a Player Character... I agree that it should not be allowed as a playable option, as the Authors obviously intend it to be...

All other things aside, if you like that kind of game, more power to you, enjoy, but I (and a great many others) do not...

No big deal, though, As always, I appreciate your opinion, even if I do not agree with it...

Keep the Faith

Oh, and one more thing. I've heard calling referenced twice. What is it, and where do I find rules for it?

Running Wild I believe...

Keep the Faith

Thanks.

I am the OP of this thread and 1st off I appologize for any Insult its existance caused

in response to the "The spirit will use edge to resist blah blah"

Exerpt from Street Magic page 95

SPIRITS AND EDGE
A spirit is generally under the control of the magician who
conjured it, but to one degree or another it is still an independent
entity. Even while bound and compelled to obey, a spirit
has its own fate and its own free will—as such, a magician cannot
compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge on a given test.
Spirits will likely use Edge to save themselves from disruption
or banishment, or to assist with the completion of a goal important
to the spirit or if completion of a service demands. Any
use of Edge is at the discretion of the gamemaster.
*** Spirits can also use Edge to assist their resistance roll to
the original summoning, but will generally not do so unless
the discrepancy in power between them and an impudent
conjurer is large or the conjurer has a history of mistreating
spirits.And yes, spirits do know if a conjurer has mistreated
other spirits.*** Whether the rumor mill in the metaplanes
works really fast or spirits can somehow pick up the telltales
in a conjurer’s aura, the spirits know if a magician’s been bad
or good.

That is the closest you will come to a spirit using edge "Guide" there is .... or as far as I am aware of

now while no there is no provision listed for edge on resistance to binding .... there is to summoning ...

VOODOO PRIEST!!!! stop maken the zombies!

DLN, no offense intended, just my POV.

That is actually something I have a problem with. If someone of jewish ancestry plays shadowrun today then most likely (at worst) someone like their grandparent or other relative might actually have been in a deathcamp since there are few 50+ age players around. Now, that IS a horrible fate but using the nazi or jew or (insert other minority) that have had some kind of horrible fate then we can make a long list of people not to insult or make sure they are not disturbed by it.

50 million Russians died in the second world war
About 6 million jews and others died in german concentration camps
POW’s in Japanese prison camps tortured
Unlawful detainment of ‘illegal combatants’ in GITMO and disregarding international law
Unlawful torture (waterboarding) in GITMO (Allied troops hanged Japanese officers after the second world war for that)
3500+ people died at WTC
X amount of people dies in Russian gulags
Tens of thousands have been slain in tribal warfare in African countries in the last decade
Mass raping of women (primarily virgins) in the belief they cure AIDS in africa
Pol Pot wanted to ‘restart’ his country with farmers and started killing intellectuals (a few million citizens or so)
Ethnic cleansing of muslims in the Croatian/Serbian war
Suicide bombing on trains in England
A tsunami killing over one hundred thousand people.
Christians are slain in muslim countries for being…christians

Now, SR wouldn’t be much of a game if we should ignore all of the above in order not to offend people – and it is damn easy to offend people as they just have to have the feeling of being offended.

Since what we write is on the internet we have (often) no fucking clue about the others who’s avatars and names we see on the forums since many of them we don’t even know from which country they are.

With the above in mind then EVERYTHING we write about SR should be deeply disturbing topics but we don’t get bent out of shape of it because we do know it is a game of fiction – the real horror is what happened in reality but that is another story.

You really ought to read the Magister Trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Her novels are a bit strange but she tells outstanding stories. The Magister trilogy is about a magic user (Males are wizards, females are witches), specifically a witch who sees no reason for her life to end when she uses up her magic.

The basic premise of this world is that casting magic uses up one's life force. A witch finds a Magister (male wizard who has learned how to siphon other people's life force to power their magic) who will teach her how to do the same. He makes it clear to her that doing so is impossible (females cannot learn to do so). She makes him a deal he cannot refuse and he teaches her. But the final test of whether or not she can do it is up to her to pass or fail. Failure = death. Success = Power & Immortality.

Magical apprenticeships in that world are a bit... dangerous, heh.

It's not really viewed as reprehensible per se because the people don't know the secret behind the Magisters' power and the Magisters aren't telling. They also take care to not being excessive in their usage of magic due to the cost.

Sounds familiar... I will look into it...
Thanks