Wouldn't anyone who tried this have a giant signature problem?
IN that their siguature would be impossible to hide and every mage in town could follow it?

About the only thing I can find about pissed off spirits is that when mistreated they fight you and cause in effect a sustaining penalty when bound and being used. Edge, I can't find a thing. Summoning I can see some kind of argument against spirits using edge, but binding is resented as its seen as forced servitude instead of a deal between equals. And that screams please use edge here to me.

Force X complex actions is the standard. But I could see an argument that 1 it would cause a background count and that could be followed back to you, the signature would be across the entire area so you can't just clean it up. But if you want to be rules picky there is nothing like that described, it makes sense sure, but the rules don't make sense all the time, that is why there are GMs to fill in the blanks.

I recently decided on what I think is a reasonable means of determining when a spirit uses edge.

If a spirit's forcex3 exceeds the sum of the summoner's cha, int, log and wil stats, then he throws edge, because he resents being bound by what is obviously his mental inferior.

I think I hear New York burning... pretty much within rules.

Sorry, I'm not seeing protects against directed magical attack. It works against "accident", but sadly no mention of any other form of attack. Also I don't think a magically induced quake qualifies as "normal"



Actually it does. The command 'murder everyone in this city' is a single service if the spirit could actually accomplish it.


Wow, so you're going to blow all those binding materials for that? Hell why not just ask it to make a martini for Mr. Bond while you're at it? Hackers are cheeper, and can actually prevent the vibration sensors from picking you up, instead of alerting everyone to your presence.


So's any skill which doesn't involve pulling a trigger. Use chemistry, step 1) whip up 20kg of c-12 step 2)......... Step 3) profit


Which would mean they are not common in security applications, cause the last thing you need is a pissed off spirit pulling the fire alarm every other day.

The whole shake New York thing would basicly need a motive such that the survival of the caster was not actually a consideration.

Ya, too bad when I engaged the devs about that one, figuring the same thing, they said spirits don't do it unless previously offended by the summoner. I don't pretend to get it, cause if I'm going to kill you for trying something, I'll likely use edge to stop you, but it seems for whatever reason, spirits don't work that way.

BTW, having read the rules on endowment more closely. Any GM that allows the whole Sapient Kitten thing is just an idiot. Sapient for Spirits maybe listed as a Power, but /everything/ is listed as a power. It's a mistake on the part of SR not to have just listed Sapience as a trait for spirits, instead of a power.

I'd bitchslap the first player who tried to ruleslawyer it in any of my games.

AND it's not permanent, so even if I was willing to say you give a kitten sapient level intelligence, it would only be temporarily and I would rule it wouldn't count for Blood Magic Rituals.

Which sadly would be a house rule. Because you're trying to cheat the system, it would be funnier to allow the player to 'think' he's bound the spirit, but have it gut him at an inopportune time. Seriously, if you're going to house rule it, make it something worth while. Maybe allow the summoner to catch on if he asesenses the spirit.
(edit)
But there is nothing stating the creature must naturally be sentient, or that the sentience of the creature used in the sacrifice need be permanent. Considering how magic is often controlled, and tainted by emotion, it actually makes perfect sense the sacrifice would only have to be experiencing the necessary feelings at the moment of the sacrifice, as unless specifically necessary for the ritual, because prior history of the victim doesn't really seem to matter.

I don't see how saying, no you can't use endowment to grant sapience to a dog, is cheating the system.

It's clearly a bonehead move. The Endowment power is for granting powers, not for jobbing sentience for your pet Vampire or Blood magic Ritual.

If you read the description on the power, it's clearly meant for a different purpose.

Actually I meant granting sapience was cheating. Its rules legal, but depending on how the 'magic' of your tradition functions, it may result in a fubar.

If all that is needed for the ritual, is the agony and fear a sentient mind experiences during the sacrificial process then this method should be just fine.
If all that is needed for the ritual, is the life force for the target, with blood and emotion as the conduit, then this method should be just fine.

If there is some other quality which the act of sacrificing produces which is needed however, and to be honest I can't really name one, then this method could potentially screw you. But the dev's have been asked if the power can grant sapience, and indeed it can.

Wow the Dev's disappoint in this one.

And yes, I agree granting sapience feels like cheating.

The whole spirit thing just feels broken in some way. I mean even more broken and overpowered than the Magic system already is.

If you want broken, try banishing, and then binding a succubus. Forcing/bribing it into a power pact, and using it karma drain ability at a hedonistic night club, where maybe 30+ couples are all engaged in 'activity' at any point in time. Karma up the wazoo there. And depending on the club, its in theory possible to even have that sort of activity be 'legal' if you prostitute out the succubus, so long as the clients know it might cost some karma for the ride of their lives.

A thrill like none other for the cost of a little bit of your soul?

Worse has happened for that price.

Karma, its a renewable resource.

It protects against normal environmental hazards what is a quake? To me it is an environmental hazard. Who gives a shit why or how it was started my spirit with guard can guard against it.
As you pointed out it is an instant power. The spirit just caused the quake, once it gets going its just a quake. Guard does not stop the hazard from happening it just protects you from it. So go ahead and quake the city there is a big earthquake and everything, no damage occurs because it was guarded against.




Sorry this is D&D where the wording of the wish matters. Once the spirit sees the task hits what they see as a service they are done. If you bind a spirit with Karma you can get it to do extended tasks for a year and a day. A GM can say an earthquake is a single instant task and not an extended task for which a spirit can be bound for a year and day. What are extended tasks is up to the GM to decide. You act like a general rule means players can warp things to do what ever they want and sorry that isn't so.



Blow, what 1 service out of 2,000 nuyen to cause a distraction which increases our chance at success to increase, um yeah I'd do that. Hackers may be able to do it cheaper and easier if it is a wi-fi set up but no wi-fi on a remote system for a buildings seismic alarms does not sound like a stretch to me.



Except force 8+summoned spirits break the game and you have them on call all the time with blood magic. Blood magic is a pile of broken fail.




Force 3 does not mean retard spirits. Force 3 provides solid security, it just isn't good in a fight.

I don't think anyone denies blood magic is a pile of broken.

So then, let's change the thought experiement. Throw blood magic out. How would you do it?

Well fire is a normal environmental hazard, so it protects against fire ball. Heavy metal poisoning is also a normal environmental hazard especially in areas of acidic soil, so it should protect against drinking cadnium. Cyanide is found naturally almonds and apple seeds, so it protects against cyanide. Car accidents are normal environmental hazards in cities, so it protects against people tying to run you down. Burning to death is a normal hazard in the middle of a pyroclastic flow, so it protects against being immersed in lava. Vitas was a naturally occurring virus, so it portects you against infections and diseases....

No sorry, no where does it list earth quakes as something it protects against. Guard keeps you from being "unlucky" and if your building is touching the ground there is no amount of 'luck' which is going to change that. A 10 on the Richter scale will demolish pretty much everything.



Actually that is where you're wrong. A character can bind a spirit to 'protect him' for a year and a day. Every time that character is attacked during that year, the spirit will is obligated to intervene. It will also do so in what ever way it sees fit, and whether or not the character actually wants it to happen at this point. A service can and does include a virtually unlimited number of uses of the spirits powers so long as all those powers are directed towards a single goal.


Does to me, its way cheaper to use wi-fi then to run cables everywhere. Is also cheaper to rig a stolen car to crash into a building, or do the same with a stolen plane.


Would you like a tissue?


Force 3 provides spirits intelligent enough to be malicious for being forced into long term binding. If you claim long term binding is universally loathed by spirits as you have, then it would not be a common security procedure.

Well fire is a normal environmental hazard, so it protects against fire ball. Heavy metal poisoning is also a normal environmental hazard especially in areas of acidic soil, so it should protect against drinking cadnium. Cyanide is found naturally almonds and apple seeds, so it protects against cyanide. Car accidents are normal environmental hazards in cities, so it protects against people tying to run you down. Burning to death is a normal hazard in the middle of a pyroclastic flow, so it protects against being immersed in lava. Vitas was a naturally occurring virus, so it portects you against infections and diseases....

No sorry, no where does it list earth quakes as something it protects against. Guard keeps you from being "unlucky" and if your building is touching the ground there is no amount of 'luck' which is going to change that. A 10 on the Richter scale will demolish pretty much everything.



Actually that is where you're wrong. A character can bind a spirit to 'protect him' for a year and a day. Every time that character is attacked during that year, the spirit will is obligated to intervene. It will also do so in what ever way it sees fit, and whether or not the character actually wants it to happen at this point. A service can and does include a virtually unlimited number of uses of the spirits powers so long as all those powers are directed towards a single goal.


Does to me, its way cheaper to use wi-fi then to run cables everywhere. Is also cheaper to rig a stolen car to crash into a building, or do the same with a stolen plane.


edit: to each their own.


Force 3 provides spirits intelligent enough to be malicious for being forced into long term binding. If you claim long term binding is universally loathed by spirits as you have, then it would not be a common security procedure.

Possess a sub orbital, and have it dive into the city while overloading is fusion core.

Or use the sucubus combo I spoke of above, and steal Karma till you have 60 magic, and levels in initiation, with centering, and other such metal magics, and do it yourself. At some adult themed clubs it's possible to rake in 30ish a night. So 'work' for 2 years and save up. By the time you're done, you'll be able to asplode cities if you feel like it.

Not if you can't summon, bind, and then invoke the Spirit you don't... You still have not provided a way for the Spirit to realistically be summoned, bound and then invoked yet... Spirit spending edge to oppose the summoner (will pretty much insure that the summoner dies) is still going to stop your plans...

Keep the Faith

Which I believe was the point being made... You will not see Force 8+ Spirits in this situation...

Keep the Faith

And yet, nowhere is that in the books, or the Errata... Amazing that...

Keep the Faith

FIrst off, even 8 hits on the table isn't a 10 on the Richter scale. A 10 on the Richter scale is when the top layer of ground liquefies.

8 Many buildings collapse, crevasses appear in pavement and
open ground.

"Many buildings" could be 10, 12. Maybe even 20. BUt not the '100's' that exist in Manhattan.
Also, "places that are susceptible to them." That would not be NYC in 2072. Most of the buildings are built to withstand siesmic events. And, I could see binding earth spirits, specifically to protect Manhattan Inc buildings.

The sprawl would suffer, but it' the sprawl.. sorta to be expected.

Earth spirits have no power which protects against earthquakes. Also my math indicated a 10 was a 25% chance for each seismic even, with 4 events happening every combat turn, meaning its a virtual guarantee in 2 combat turn, the minimum projected response time.

Blood magic is a virtual shield of steel against spirits behaving like that, just need to murder enough sapient kittens, and you're golden.

With spirits behaving maliciously as you claim they will, you will not see any spirits in this application, which directly contradicts street magic, and thus can be safely ignored.

Really, so no where in all the books it says they'll use edge either then?

Or just crash a sub orbital into the city while its fusion core explodes. That works too. Now only if I could get a spirit to possess the plane.

And when was the last time you really used your soul anyhow?

Besides you're only selling a little bit of it. It will grow back.

In the section where Edge is discussed...

Anyone with Edge may use it as they please, under the conditions set forth on the expenditure of Edge...
I thought that you knew that.
Hmm... Apparently not...

Keep the Faith

Well, it is a good thing that Blood Magic is forbidden to Players then isn't it?

Keep the Faith

Its not. Sorry. But there is no where in the text for blood magic indicating its 'forbidden'.

A mage could just go out in a boat, 50 miles from the target city, and bind and rebind a rating = [char magic] great form spirit for one service after another, simply moving after each attempt.

Eventually that mage would create a rating 6 quake, which is enough to produce a 12m high tsunami. Hell, they might be able to hit a higher rating if the dice fall correctly. NYC getting pummeled by a 36m Tsunami would mangle the harbor and sweep clear across the island causing such loss of life and property that it would be talked about for centuries.

Now this has potential.

Well giving it a quick glance I see a side bar on pg 178 of the BBB which says spirits won't try be abusive to the magician unless the magician was do first. Synner, and I believe Franktrollman has stated much the same in the past as well.

It actually just recommends the gm be very careful about handing it out. For what ever reason the book wishes to restrict it to toxic traditions, but given the number of religious traditions which involve some form of blood sacrifice, and/or ritual cannibalism I don't really see the point. Blood magic need not loss of life, and the blood used in the ritual, can in fact be given willingly.
So not only does the book not forbid it, but casts it in an unnecessarily evil light, in a game where murder is almost as common place as shopping trips. The double standard while amusing is also grating.

Again comes the problem of if spirits hated it as much as you claim, they would be unusable for the security applications the book clearly says they are employed for. So either you're right and their not used for security, or the book's right and they are. Since the book governs the universe, and they are used for security applications, they don't function the way you claim unless you abuse them according to your traditions.

Did you just quote the same post twice to address different points?

It's kinda supported by canon though. People might tend to see it in a bad light when a certain Darke decided to use it to try to invite his buddies the horrors over for a weekend of fun and Armageddon... But, as you mentioned, it can be used for good as well:

The letting of blood is a time honored tradition, and there are very few if any religions in the world where it isn't practiced in some form, even if only symbolically.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm just saying that since it was used to almost bring about the end times prematurely there are forces at work that want to limit it's use and availability.

The fact that they are listed as "Threats"... Pretty much makes them an Antagonist, not a Protagonist... If you like those games where you are the most evil bastard Blood Mage who sacrifices Kittens for power, well, that is definitely something that you can do, but please do not make the mistake of calling it an Archtype that is available as a Player, as it is not...

Keep the Faith

Well, that is a bunch of fail, as My Copy of SR4A has no such listing on the page referenced... care to try again?

As for the probable relevant section, it is on Page 187 of the SR4A Book (Sidebar) and it is talking about the penalties for having more spirits around you than one... the -2 penalty per spirit to control them to do what you want them to do...

NOWHERE does it EVER mention the expenditure of EDGE... I would refer you to the relevant secitons on EDGE to see what the rules are on this subject... Hint: There is no mention of only spending Edge if Spirits have been abused... Any creature that has an EDGE attribute may spend it as they see fit... Again, That seems pretty cut and dried to me... you may disagree, which is indeed your perrogative, but then you are using the House rule you continue to comment upon, not me...

And in respect to another Sidebar on Binding (Page 189), if the Summoner goes unconscious due to Drain in a Binding, the Spirit TRIES TO KILL THE SUMMONER... Seems to me that if they do not want to be bound, they are going to spend that EDGE to Resist... In fact, In my opinion, if they do not want to serve at all, they will spend it to resist the summoning itself...

Do what you will, but it is well within the rules for Sirits to spend their Edge as they see fit...

Keep the Faith

Blood Sacrifice is not necessarily equivalent to being a Toxic Tradition that relies upon Blood Sacrifice of a Sentient being...
Again, if it is your desire to play a Magician that MUST kill to power their Magic, that is your choice, just don't say that it is a natural thing for magicians to pursue, as it is not...

Keep the Faith

Yet these traditions do not REQUIRE the sacrifice of a Human as part of that tradition... Why do you not understand that?

Keep the Faith

Sounds more like the spirit is saying "You can attempt to bind me. You had better do it right or else there will be hell to pay."

Fail the binding, the spirit tries to toast you. Succeed or don't attempt to bind and the spirit doesn't try kill you. It doesn't sound antagonistic. Just punitive with regards to failure.

The information for Binding heavily implies (if not explicitly) that Spirits abhore Binding... AS a result, on a failed attempt, nothing bad happens (except the Drain, of course) UNLESS the character is rendered unconscious due to Drain, at which point the spirit tries to kill the summoner... I see the Spirit hedging his bets by spending that Edge to try and insure that the summoner pays heavily for his hubris, and if the summoner goes unconscious, well, the spirit kills him for it...

Keep the Faith