Destruction of New York, a theoretical discussion Options

[Mordinvan]

FIrst off, even 8 hits on the table isn't a 10 on the Richter scale. A 10 on the Richter scale is when the top layer of ground liquefies.

8 Many buildings collapse, crevasses appear in pavement and
open ground.

"Many buildings" could be 10, 12. Maybe even 20. BUt not the '100's' that exist in Manhattan.
Also, "places that are susceptible to them." That would not be NYC in 2072. Most of the buildings are built to withstand siesmic events. And, I could see binding earth spirits, specifically to protect Manhattan Inc buildings.

The sprawl would suffer, but it' the sprawl.. sorta to be expected.

Earth spirits have no power which protects against earthquakes. Also my math indicated a 10 was a 25% chance for each seismic even, with 4 events happening every combat turn, meaning its a virtual guarantee in 2 combat turn, the minimum projected response time.

[Mordinvan]

Not if you can't summon, bind, and then invoke the Spirit you don't... You still have not provided a way for the Spirit to realistically be summoned, bound and then invoked yet... Spirit spending edge to oppose the summoner (will pretty much insure that the summoner dies) is still going to stop your plans...

Keep the Faith

Blood magic is a virtual shield of steel against spirits behaving like that, just need to murder enough sapient kittens, and you're golden.

[Mordinvan]

Which I believe was the point being made... You will not see Force 8+ Spirits in this situation...

Keep the Faith

With spirits behaving maliciously as you claim they will, you will not see any spirits in this application, which directly contradicts street magic, and thus can be safely ignored.

[Mordinvan]

And yet, nowhere is that in the books, or the Errata... Amazing that...

Keep the Faith

Really, so no where in all the books it says they'll use edge either then?

[Mordinvan]

Not if you can't summon, bind, and then invoke the Spirit you don't... You still have not provided a way for the Spirit to realistically be summoned, bound and then invoked yet... Spirit spending edge to oppose the summoner (will pretty much insure that the summoner dies) is still going to stop your plans...

Keep the Faith

Or just crash a sub orbital into the city while its fusion core explodes. That works too. Now only if I could get a spirit to possess the plane.

[kzt]

A thrill like none other for the cost of a little bit of your soul?

And when was the last time you really used your soul anyhow?

[Mordinvan]

And when was the last time you really used your soul anyhow?

Besides you're only selling a little bit of it. It will grow back.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really, so no where in all the books it says they'll use edge either then?

In the section where Edge is discussed...

Anyone with Edge may use it as they please, under the conditions set forth on the expenditure of Edge...
I thought that you knew that.
Hmm... Apparently not...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Blood magic is a virtual shield of steel against spirits behaving like that, just need to murder enough sapient kittens, and you're golden.

Well, it is a good thing that Blood Magic is forbidden to Players then isn't it?

Keep the Faith

[Mordinvan]

Well, it is a good thing that Blood Magic is forbidden to Players then isn't it?

Keep the Faith

Its not. Sorry. But there is no where in the text for blood magic indicating its 'forbidden'.

[Saint Sithney]

A mage could just go out in a boat, 50 miles from the target city, and bind and rebind a rating = [char magic] great form spirit for one service after another, simply moving after each attempt.

Eventually that mage would create a rating 6 quake, which is enough to produce a 12m high tsunami. Hell, they might be able to hit a higher rating if the dice fall correctly. NYC getting pummeled by a 36m Tsunami would mangle the harbor and sweep clear across the island causing such loss of life and property that it would be talked about for centuries.

[Doc Chase]

Blood magic is a virtual shield of golden sapient kittens.

Now this has potential.

[Mordinvan]

In the section where Edge is discussed...

Anyone with Edge may use it as they please, under the conditions set forth on the expenditure of Edge...
I thought that you knew that.
Hmm... Apparently not...

Keep the Faith

Well giving it a quick glance I see a side bar on pg 178 of the BBB which says spirits won't try be abusive to the magician unless the magician was do first. Synner, and I believe Franktrollman has stated much the same in the past as well.

[Mordinvan]

Well, it is a good thing that Blood Magic is forbidden to Players then isn't it?

Keep the Faith

It actually just recommends the gm be very careful about handing it out. For what ever reason the book wishes to restrict it to toxic traditions, but given the number of religious traditions which involve some form of blood sacrifice, and/or ritual cannibalism I don't really see the point. Blood magic need not loss of life, and the blood used in the ritual, can in fact be given willingly.
So not only does the book not forbid it, but casts it in an unnecessarily evil light, in a game where murder is almost as common place as shopping trips. The double standard while amusing is also grating.

[Mordinvan]

In the section where Edge is discussed...

Anyone with Edge may use it as they please, under the conditions set forth on the expenditure of Edge...
I thought that you knew that.
Hmm... Apparently not...

Keep the Faith

Again comes the problem of if spirits hated it as much as you claim, they would be unusable for the security applications the book clearly says they are employed for. So either you're right and their not used for security, or the book's right and they are. Since the book governs the universe, and they are used for security applications, they don't function the way you claim unless you abuse them according to your traditions.

[Doc Chase]

Did you just quote the same post twice to address different points? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Dr.Rockso]

It actually just recommends the gm be very careful about handing it out. For what ever reason the book wishes to restrict it to toxic traditions, but given the number of religious traditions which involve some form of blood sacrifice, and/or ritual cannibalism I don't really see the point. Blood magic need not loss of life, and the blood used in the ritual, can in fact be given willingly.
So not only does the book not forbid it, but casts it in an unnecessarily evil light, in a game where murder is almost as common place as shopping trips. The double standard while amusing is also grating.

It's kinda supported by canon though. People might tend to see it in a bad light when a certain Darke decided to use it to try to invite his buddies the horrors over for a weekend of fun and Armageddon... But, as you mentioned, it can be used for good as well:

[ Spoiler ]

Hell, a certain president of the UCAS sacrificed himself with blood magic to prevent said Darke from accomplishing this

[Mordinvan]

It's kinda supported by canon though. People might tend to see it in a bad light when a certain Darke decided to use it to try to invite his buddies the horrors over for a weekend of fun and Armageddon... But, as you mentioned, it can be used for good as well:

The letting of blood is a time honored tradition, and there are very few if any religions in the world where it isn't practiced in some form, even if only symbolically.

[Dr.Rockso]

The letting of blood is a time honored tradition, and there are very few if any religions in the world where it isn't practiced in some form, even if only symbolically.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm just saying that since it was used to almost bring about the end times prematurely there are forces at work that want to limit it's use and availability.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Its not. Sorry. But there is no where in the text for blood magic indicating its 'forbidden'.

The fact that they are listed as "Threats"... Pretty much makes them an Antagonist, not a Protagonist... If you like those games where you are the most evil bastard Blood Mage who sacrifices Kittens for power, well, that is definitely something that you can do, but please do not make the mistake of calling it an Archtype that is available as a Player, as it is not...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well giving it a quick glance I see a side bar on pg 178 of the BBB which says spirits won't try be abusive to the magician unless the magician was do first. Synner, and I believe Franktrollman has stated much the same in the past as well.

Well, that is a bunch of fail, as My Copy of SR4A has no such listing on the page referenced... care to try again?

As for the probable relevant section, it is on Page 187 of the SR4A Book (Sidebar) and it is talking about the penalties for having more spirits around you than one... the -2 penalty per spirit to control them to do what you want them to do...

NOWHERE does it EVER mention the expenditure of EDGE... I would refer you to the relevant secitons on EDGE to see what the rules are on this subject... Hint: There is no mention of only spending Edge if Spirits have been abused... Any creature that has an EDGE attribute may spend it as they see fit... Again, That seems pretty cut and dried to me... you may disagree, which is indeed your perrogative, but then you are using the House rule you continue to comment upon, not me...

And in respect to another Sidebar on Binding (Page 189), if the Summoner goes unconscious due to Drain in a Binding, the Spirit TRIES TO KILL THE SUMMONER... Seems to me that if they do not want to be bound, they are going to spend that EDGE to Resist... In fact, In my opinion, if they do not want to serve at all, they will spend it to resist the summoning itself...

Do what you will, but it is well within the rules for Sirits to spend their Edge as they see fit...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It actually just recommends the gm be very careful about handing it out. For what ever reason the book wishes to restrict it to toxic traditions, but given the number of religious traditions which involve some form of blood sacrifice, and/or ritual cannibalism I don't really see the point. Blood magic need not loss of life, and the blood used in the ritual, can in fact be given willingly.
So not only does the book not forbid it, but casts it in an unnecessarily evil light, in a game where murder is almost as common place as shopping trips. The double standard while amusing is also grating.

Blood Sacrifice is not necessarily equivalent to being a Toxic Tradition that relies upon Blood Sacrifice of a Sentient being...
Again, if it is your desire to play a Magician that MUST kill to power their Magic, that is your choice, just don't say that it is a natural thing for magicians to pursue, as it is not...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The letting of blood is a time honored tradition, and there are very few if any religions in the world where it isn't practiced in some form, even if only symbolically.

Yet these traditions do not REQUIRE the sacrifice of a Human as part of that tradition... Why do you not understand that?

Keep the Faith

[darthmord]

Well, that is a bunch of fail, as My Copy of SR4A has no such listing on the page referenced... care to try again?

As for the probable relevant section, it is on Page 187 of the SR4A Book (Sidebar) and it is talking about the penalties for having more spirits around you than one... the -2 penalty per spirit to control them to do what you want them to do...

NOWHERE does it EVER mention the expenditure of EDGE... I would refer you to the relevant secitons on EDGE to see what the rules are on this subject... Hint: There is no mention of only spending Edge if Spirits have been abused... Any creature that has an EDGE attribute may spend it as they see fit... Again, That seems pretty cut and dried to me... you may disagree, which is indeed your perrogative, but then you are using the House rule you continue to comment upon, not me...

And in respect to another Sidebar on Binding (Page 189), if the Summoner goes unconscious due to Drain in a Binding, the Spirit TRIES TO KILL THE SUMMONER... Seems to me that if they do not want to be bound, they are going to spend that EDGE to Resist... In fact, In my opinion, if they do not want to serve at all, they will spend it to resist the summoning itself...

Do what you will, but it is well within the rules for Sirits to spend their Edge as they see fit...

Keep the Faith

Sounds more like the spirit is saying "You can attempt to bind me. You had better do it right or else there will be hell to pay."

Fail the binding, the spirit tries to toast you. Succeed or don't attempt to bind and the spirit doesn't try kill you. It doesn't sound antagonistic. Just punitive with regards to failure.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sounds more like the spirit is saying "You can attempt to bind me. You had better do it right or else there will be hell to pay."

Fail the binding, the spirit tries to toast you. Succeed or don't attempt to bind and the spirit doesn't try kill you. It doesn't sound antagonistic. Just punitive with regards to failure.

The information for Binding heavily implies (if not explicitly) that Spirits abhore Binding... AS a result, on a failed attempt, nothing bad happens (except the Drain, of course) UNLESS the character is rendered unconscious due to Drain, at which point the spirit tries to kill the summoner... I see the Spirit hedging his bets by spending that Edge to try and insure that the summoner pays heavily for his hubris, and if the summoner goes unconscious, well, the spirit kills him for it...

Keep the Faith