Destruction of New York, a theoretical discussion Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

"Some see planes and wonder 'Where will I go?'
Elsewhere, some see planes, then they're shattered into stars."

I'd like to raise another point about Quake.
Instant Tsunamis on demand.

Gotta say that this power is asinine.

It really isn't as bad as that. Honestly even drain soaking machines normally can't invoke up a great form spirit of enough power to do anything on the quake table so it is pretty much just in GM plot device land.

[Saint Sithney]

Dice can clatter every which-a-way. Getting 6 or more hits on 12 dice isn't unheard of.
Good GMs don't let mental case PC mages play dice with with the universe.

If it's just relegated to GM plot device land, I'll employ fiat rather than wacky rules.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Dice can clatter every which-a-way. Getting 6 or more hits on 12 dice isn't unheard of.
Good GMs don't let mental case PC mages play dice with with the universe.

If it's just relegated to GM plot device land, I'll employ fiat rather than wacky rules.

6 hits is in the piss people off but no huge damage category, 7 causes some death but not widespread you need 8 hits to really devastate a city. Sure you could get that on a force 6 spirit but it is highly unlikely. And even failed attempts bring in hit teams against you, so I'm not too worried about this power. And even a force 6 spirit isn't east to make a great form, sure odds say its only 12 drain, but since its x3 the hits when that spirit rolls 12 dice 15 drain is not unlikely which can knock quite a few players out so now its free. Add in the possible use of edge on the resistance test and the drain can be pretty much impossible to handle. I'm not saying its a perfect power I'd of reduced the area by like x10 to start or made it a magic test not magic+willpower but its not as bad as I think people are implying. All in all great form spirits aren't well thought out IMO. They aren't horrible but they are not great either.

[Traul]

I'm happy accept your graciously worded apology. I know it is a game setting where the players are criminals. We have had games in NYC that have included violence but the idea of someone planning city wide destruction, not stopping a villain from doing it but being the actor is unpleasant and unnerving. I am serious about having seen the sky line fall. I think for most New Yorkers the idea of someone planning such mass murder, even in a game setting is unnerving and seems to be making light of 9/11. Hunting down such a person, would be a wonderful game. I'm sure outside of the New York area it is not as traumatic.

I hate to play the 'nazi' card, and here I'll accept that term, which is over blown, but I would liken it, as I did, to maybe a Jewish gamer reading about someone asking how to set up death camps and ethnic clensing. again, thank you for your apology and thoughtful words over our disagreement.

As a smart French guy once said: one can laugh about everything, but not with everyone.

Don't know if there is an equivalent for that in English.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Ghost Dance was to unleash magic, not to command a spirit. The rules clearly state that the spirit obeys you, no where does it even mention they have a D&D Efreeti like chance to twist your wording. I'd personally find your answer deux ex machina and I'd be very disappointed. I'd rather be told "No. Don't be a dick" than have the rules twisted against my character.

Normal spirits are also not bound to a place on this plane, its backyard is a metaplane somewhere.

Well, in my opinion, your potentially Summoned, Bound, and Invoked Force 8 Great Form Spirit would have used 3 Karma to resist the Summoning, the Binding, and the Invoking, likely killing the Summoner very, very, dead... And perfectly within the rules, so you should be rather happy...

So no real problem at all in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

[Synner667]

Having the means to destroy a city so easily achievable raises the question why it's not done all the time (especailly by toxics). Bringing up various deus-ex-machina counter measures often opens a bigger can of worms, making players ask why other things work with such measures in place.

Actually, that was what I was thinking.

Really, with the powers available via magic, why doesn't this sort of things happen quite frequently...
...Maybe not in the metroplexes, but in the small towns outside there.

My main response is there are too many other things already in place for this to work - guard spirits, astral travellers, wards, mix of domains, etc.

If it's not allowed, I'd rather it was via the setting, not me just saying so.

[Blade]

"So you're about to do something that will level a whole city. You're about to kill thousands of innocents, severly wound a lot more and destroy the lives of a lot of people. Do you have a 'sociopath' negative quality or something like that? No? Roll Willpower*2, threshold 6."

[Mordinvan]

Hmm, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered. A run-of-the-mill, non-toxic spirit might refuse to perform destruction on this scale. Then again, why have the Quake power in the first place, it's inherently mass-destructive. Could be argued quakes are natually occuring in the first place and mother nature is a tough bitch. Could go either way, really.

I'd see 'earth' spirits as being too happy to do such things. Humans have been raping the earth long enough, and grinding it up, putting it in the air, in defiance of gravity for way too long now. A little payback would be appreciated. At least depending on the exact tradition of the summoner.

Also with regards to getting caught. I'm not sure how easy this would be to do if they didn't catch you in the act. If you clean up the astral signature of the spirit at the location the power was used, and the spirit returns to its native meta plane, cause using it again on this plane would be likely suicide, tracking it back to its home plane should be impossible. The investigators would know its gone back to 'a earth type meta plane', but given there are an infinite number of meta planes, and as such an infinite number with possible earth spirits in them....

[Mordinvan]

"So you're about to do something that will level a whole city. You're about to kill thousands of innocents, severly wound a lot more and destroy the lives of a lot of people. Do you have a 'sociopath' negative quality or something like that? No? Roll Willpower*2, threshold 6."

There is no sociopath negative quality, and there are plenty of humans alive today who would have no problem doing such a thing. I think a few of them flew planes into buildings a little while ago.

[Blade]

IIRC it's possible to create your own negative quality (though it might not be possible inside the SRM scope) and my point was that any character who wasn't lacking empathy (which could be the result of some negative quality I don't remember) wouldn't be able to decide to destroy a whole city just like that.

Sure, you can get people to do it under some circumstances, such as obeying orders, not knowing the exact nature/extent of the actions, conditioning... These would be positive modifiers (or might lower the threshold). But I doubt many sane people would do it just "for fun" or "because they can".

[Mordinvan]

Well, in my opinion, your potentially Summoned, Bound, and Invoked Force 8 Great Form Spirit would have used 3 Karma to resist the Summoning, the Binding, and the Invoking, likely killing the Summoner very, very, dead... And perfectly within the rules, so you should be rather happy...

So no real problem at all in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

Unless the character had previously screwed his spirits rather profoundly in the past, they won't even use edge, let alone burn edge. Now where do you get the spending Karma to do, or not do something? As I don't see that anywhere. Gm's being asshats and blatantly breaking the rules of spirit summoning without cause would actually get me to try something like burning down a city, or killing all the ceo's of his favorite corporation.

[Mordinvan]

IIRC it's possible to create your own negative quality (though it might not be possible inside the SRM scope) and my point was that any character who wasn't lacking empathy (which could be the result of some negative quality I don't remember) wouldn't be able to decide to destroy a whole city just like that.

Sure, you can get people to do it under some circumstances, such as obeying orders, not knowing the exact nature/extent of the actions, conditioning... These would be positive modifiers (or might lower the threshold). But I doubt many sane people would do it just "for fun" or "because they can".

Lets say one of the mega's in NYC did something really terrible to you, and you've got a martyr complex on now. You're taking them down, and don't care who else come along for the ride. Maybe you're just naturally a sociopath. You'd likely have to have some motivating factor, but even just crushing the polluting decedent mortals and allowing nature to reclaim the land could be good enough. Maybe you're a native american shamman who's still upset about the fact Manhattan Island was bought for a handful of beads, and feel a need to 'adjust' the realestate value. There are dozens of reasons I can think of, most of which are not even a 'mild' stretch for some of the nuttier groups SR has in it by cannon.

[Doc Chase]

Lets say one of the mega's in NYC did something really terrible to you, and you've got a martyr complex on now. You're taking them down, and don't care who else come along for the ride. Maybe you're just naturally a sociopath. You'd likely have to have some motivating factor, but even just crushing the polluting decedent mortals and allowing nature to reclaim the land could be good enough. Maybe you're a native american shamman who's still upset about the fact Manhattan Island was bought for a handful of beads, and feel a need to 'adjust' the realestate value. There are dozens of reasons I can think of, most of which are not even a 'mild' stretch for some of the nuttier groups SR has in it by cannon.

Motive is certainly there, but there's the means and opportunity that have to be considered. I'm not very good with the magic system with SR4 - chalk it up to laziness on my part - but it takes a lot of power and time to summon a greatform spirit like that, yes? Very few people are going to be able to do that alone, and the time and training it would take for someone to be able to do that alone is going to make one wonder if there was an easier way to bring down an entire city (or at least have enough time to cool the hell off and realize there are a lot of innocent people in the way there).

On top of that, I'm going to throw forth the assumption that said spirits are rare, and perhaps one's inthe middle of an Astral Plane tea party with a free spirit when he starts getting summoned, and that free spirit might have a few contacts of their own. Hell, maybe it was an Evo exec.

Let's say we do have someone who is powerful enough to summon and control a spirit of that magnitude, has the opportunity to do so, and has enough of an axe to grind to level a city along with the wherewithal to get it done. Wouldn't someone like that be watched? Wouldn't that require a few ritual components that would set off alert flags if purchased in sufficient quantity?

Wouldn't that spawn one bad ass runner campaign to stop the crazy guy before he levels a city?

I would say yes to all of the above.

[Mordinvan]

Motive is certainly there, but there's the means and opportunity that have to be considered. I'm not very good with the magic system with SR4 - chalk it up to laziness on my part - but it takes a lot of power and time to summon a greatform spirit like that, yes? Very few people are going to be able to do that alone, and the time and training it would take for someone to be able to do that alone is going to make one wonder if there was an easier way to bring down an entire city (or at least have enough time to cool the hell off and realize there are a lot of innocent people in the way there).

A blood magician can cope with the drain. So anyone from a magical background where blood sacrifice as even conceptualized, this could even include some of the more 'extreme' ends of the christian spectrum.

On top of that, I'm going to throw forth the assumption that said spirits are rare, and perhaps one's inthe middle of an Astral Plane tea party with a free spirit when he starts getting summoned, and that free spirit might have a few contacts of their own. Hell, maybe it was an Evo exec.

There is one problem with this assumption of 'rareness' people keep floating about. There are an infinite number of infinitely large metaplanes. This means there are an infinite number of spirits of any given description. They may comprise large or smaller proportions of the population, but there is no limit to their number, so that even the tiniest fraction of them would have any known connection to earth is absurd.

Let's say we do have someone who is powerful enough to summon and control a spirit of that magnitude, has the opportunity to do so, and has enough of an axe to grind to level a city along with the wherewithal to get it done. Wouldn't someone like that be watched? Wouldn't that require a few ritual components that would set off alert flags if purchased in sufficient quantity?

It would require a magic of maybe 6-8, so a grade 1-2 initiate. It would need whatever standard binding materials are needed for that tradition, and likely access to blood magic, as well as some cows, or clones, or kittens, and any tradition who's great spirits have earthquake, and endowment to get the powers needed to do the binding and invoking.

Wouldn't that spawn one bad ass runner campaign to stop the crazy guy before he levels a city?

I would say yes to all of the above.

So would I, except that none of the needed materials should actually be rare enough that they will attract attention. It would be like trying to stop someone from building a nuke using materials found only in hardware stores and garage sales. Ya it would be a great idea to stop them, but nothing they're buying is adequately regulated to attract the attention that would justify looking into their activities.

[sabs]

Perhaps.. and this is just a perhaps.

Arcologies, NYPD inc, DPF, have Mages whose job it is to do assensing for Force 8+ spirits of ass kicking?

What bothers me is why are there no rules for ritual wardings.
I would think that Spirits of that level of Force would throw off serious residual magic.

A blanket warding that warns who ever is in charge of an area when some force 12 Greater Spirit is summoned and manifested.

[Doc Chase]

A blood magician can cope with the drain. So anyone from a magical background where blood sacrifice as even conceptualized, this could even include some of the more 'extreme' ends of the christian spectrum.

As I recall, blood magic is still outlawed and the Draco Foundation has a standing bounty. This is going to make it more difficult for a blood mage to operate in the UCAS (or anywhere else, really), especially if it's in a high-population area. There are going to be people looking for things that blood mages want.

There is one problem with this assumption of 'rareness' people keep floating about. There are an infinite number of infinitely large metaplanes. This means there are an infinite number of spirits of any given description. They may comprise large or smaller proportions of the population, but there is no limit to their number, so that even the tiniest fraction of them would have any known connection to earth is absurd.

But it's still a possibility. If you want to handwave it and say that someone can completely stealth cast a magical WMD, that's fine. I'm trying to provide a theoretical framework that a GM can use to foil the attempt, but I can just handwave it and chase you from the table until you come to your senses as well, that's fine.

Mind you, this is the 'you as game-wrecker', not you personally.

It would require a magic of maybe 6-8, so a grade 1-2 initiate. It would need whatever standard binding materials are needed for that tradition, and likely access to blood magic, as well as some cows, or clones, or kittens, and any tradition who's great spirits have earthquake, and endowment to get the powers needed to do the binding and invoking.

Clones require gear that can be tracked - and cows I believe would be rare enough in NYC to raise some flags if a private citizen is trying to get them in suffificient quantity to attempt something of this magnitude. Kittens as well - I avoid kitten bandoliers as a matter of course.

So would I, except that none of the needed materials should actually be rare enough that they will attract attention. It would be like trying to stop someone from building a nuke using materials found only in hardware stores and garage sales. Ya it would be a great idea to stop them, but nothing they're buying is adequately regulated to attract the attention that would justify looking into their activities.

What kind of garage sales are you going to where you can get the radioactive materials needed to start a nuclear pile?

If the materials aren't rare enough to bring in a greatform spirit, perhaps they should be. Or rather, not all of them, but perhaps something specific to bring in that kind of power. Were it me I'd houserule it, and if the player really wants to go through with it, then someone is going to get wind and realize the threat for what it is.

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly this thread still leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I have to say that all the people suggesting the spirits wouldn't do this out of some moral conviction are both using dubious logic at best but flat out contradicted by the in game story, spirits are often convinced to do bad things by bad people on a horrific scale in the Shadowrun universe. Anything else is the GM painting their own morality on amoral beings.

[DireRadiant]

The capability for large scale destruction exists. The counters also exist.

The capability for large scale destruction exists. The ability is relatively rare, it is rarely used, if it gets used, it's unlikely to be used again by the same person. There's little motivation to use it. The possibility exists.

The counters also exist. The counters are diverse. The counters are frequently used, they counters get used again, and there is a great deal of motivation to use them.

Sources of large scale desctruction are tracked and monitored by society. Large scale destruction has consequences.

Nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, powerful explosives, invoked spirits with earthquake powers. Not only are the traditional methods used, but there are even new powerful methods available.

Nuclear, biological and chemical materials are tracked and monitored. So are mages. There is a reason besides fear of the awakened to register and track them.

All it takes is one mage with divination asking if NYC is going to have something bad happen for the machinery to counter the threat to go into high gear. The rest of the machinery already exists.

[sabs]

So why does a corporation not have a mage doing a divination every day?
Is This building going to be run against today.
Is this Corporation going to be run against today.

[Doc Chase]

So why does a corporation not have a mage doing a divination every day?
Is This building going to be run against today.
Is this Corporation going to be run against today.

I'd go with economy of time. Most projects in a particular building aren't going to be worth the effort - why would Corp A spend time and nuyen sending a mage to divine threats against Sharon in Accounting?

Then you get into the broad spectrum divinations that you're suggesting - every time you divine seeing 'is Aztechnology going to be the victim of a crime' (which is what a run is),you'll get a yes every time. Corporations are huge.

Do something to the scale of 'Is there a direct, city-destroying threat within the city limits?' and you can send your mundane folk to gather information when the spirit alarm starts screaming.

[LurkerOutThere]

Presumably because deviniation is woefully short on actionable intel and doesn't add a whole lot to your preperation planing unless you've got enough initiated maged to ask very specific questions constantly.

To put it bluntly there is no counter to quake Dire. The existance of Shadowrunner mages proves that some mages do fall through the cracks, now amongst the the hundreds of mages that do in any given city the very small percentage that posses the invoking magic, then the very small percentage of those who see earthquakes as a viable tool in their arsenal. Of those it is statistically unlikely to get one that can do major damage to a city and a failed attempt will likely result in hunt down and death for the caster, but even then since many buildings in new york are likely designed to be earthquake proof it might not do nearly as much as one would like.

Basically what I'm getting at for that tiny percentage of mages capable of doing such acts there is little or no front end preventative. If Harlequin (to use an example of someone who could invoke, and survive because you know Harly can do anything) wanted to level new york there's no way to stop him. He invokes and binds a force 20 great form earth spirit and sends it towards new york and then goes back to watching the cubs play all the divination in the world won't help you if he does this from Seattle.

[Mordinvan]

Perhaps.. and this is just a perhaps.

Arcologies, NYPD inc, DPF, have Mages whose job it is to do assensing for Force 8+ spirits of ass kicking?

Yes but to assense you have to see, and to do that, you need to have an LOS. I don't any group which has an LOS to every point in space in an entire city.

[Mordinvan]

This is going to make it more difficult for a blood mage to operate in the UCAS (or anywhere else, really), especially if it's in a high-population area. There are going to be people looking for things that blood mages want.

All you need is a box full of kittens and a spirit with the powers of endowment and sapience, and you've got all the blood magic fuel you could ask for. I won't deny its illegal, but its not like you can detect that someone knows the tricks with anything short of an eye witness, or a mind probe.

But it's still a possibility. If you want to handwave it and say that someone can completely stealth cast a magical WMD, that's fine. I'm trying to provide a theoretical framework that a GM can use to foil the attempt, but I can just handwave it and chase you from the table until you come to your senses as well, that's fine.

Its no more noticeable then any other summoning or binding. I'm not denying the player doing it is being an ass, but I've pointed out numerous possible motivations which would certainly allow any number of crazies to justify such an action.

Clones require gear that can be tracked - and cows I believe would be rare enough in NYC to raise some flags if a private citizen is trying to get them in suffificient quantity to attempt something of this magnitude. Kittens as well - I avoid kitten bandoliers as a matter of course.

Point is, any living creature which has blood, and can be endowed with sapience is a perfect target. The more common, and less likely to be traced, the better.

What kind of garage sales are you going to where you can get the radioactive materials needed to start a nuclear pile?

Remarkably enough a kid assembled a functional reactor using uranium from old white paint, and deuterium from anti-glare coating on lenses. So its possible.

If the materials aren't rare enough to bring in a greatform spirit, perhaps they should be. Or rather, not all of them, but perhaps something specific to bring in that kind of power. Were it me I'd houserule it, and if the player really wants to go through with it, then someone is going to get wind and realize the threat for what it is.

Its a standard great form earth spirit. You'd be better off replacing the power with the ability to shape several cubic meters of stone/earth/dirt/sand per force point. Really earthquake is just a ridiculous power and shouldn't have been introduced. As it stands however, when combined with blood magic, is a very easy way to destroy a city.

[sabs]

Is it really that easy?
You need 24 dice to have a decent shot of getting your 8 hits. 32 to be sure it's going to work.

So that spirit needs 24-32 dice when activation the Earthquake power.

That's not exactly easy.

Can spirits even get 24-32 dice
What Force spirit would you need for that.
What's the drain on that.

And honestly, the rules are like the Pirate Code. More of a suggestion really.

[Mordinvan]

All it takes is one mage with divination asking if NYC is going to have something bad happen for the machinery to counter the threat to go into high gear. The rest of the machinery already exists.

Wonderful, so the mage finds out the city will be hit by an earthquake. As divination says you can NOT ask about personal details or anything like that, you now know about the earthquake, and possibly even the date and time if you do good enough. So now you do what exactly? Search everywhere in the entire city looking for a possible cause, and busting down everyone's private wards, and shooting people who refuse? I'm sorry, but I don't think a response to this sort of even could even realistically exist. There would simply be too much ground to cover, and the spirit could be in any of the millions of warded shops, homes, and bathrooms dumpshock seems to insist riddle every city on the planet. There is simply no way to find it before it does its thing. Hell the mage could be a prick, and have himself given the power via endowment, and conceal himself with invisibility/improved invisibility/extended masking/concealment/aura masking all at the same time, while in a warded area making him as close to impossible to find as the laws of physics and magic allow, hell throw on the endowed power of materialization, and his hidding place doesn't even have to in the city, he could be floating 2 miles over top of it, and arrive exactly one combat turn before he levels the place. Really, I have no idea how you would counter something like that.