Destruction of New York, a theoretical discussion Options

[Mordinvan]

Is it really that easy?
You need 24 dice to have a decent shot of getting your 8 hits. 32 to be sure it's going to work.

For a 1 shot? Ya about that bad. IF however you don't really care about coming out of the even alive, and are willing to spend Karma on a long term binding of said spirit to shake the ground for a year and a day? A lot less, as 1 good roll will do it. Now its not likely the spirit would be able to get in too many tries, but it does decrease the dice pool needed. Give the spirit in question the extra IP's and a well cast improved reflexes spell, and it could potentially initiate 4 quakes per combat turn.

What Force spirit would you need for that.
What's the drain on that.

Given this would need blood magic to pull off, assume a box load of sapient kittens in a wine press will pay for the drain. Assuming that, making a force 12 spirit will on average inflict 16 drain, with up to 20 not being unrealistic, so having 6 sapient kittens bled all at once should pay for it. The spirit in question will have 24 dice to roll, and will have a 25.3835%
of generating a 10 on the Richter scale every pass, with 4 passes, per turn, and as many turns as it takes for people to find it, you're likely looking at a 24km circle being flattened.

[Mordinvan]

Homer, I didn't say you couldn't deep-fry you shirt, I said you shouldn't deep-fry your shirt.

[sabs]

There are some issues with the magic system in Shadowrun :0

Sapient kittens? Are kittens really enough for a ritual sacrifice? ANd kittens are not usually sapient. That's a pretty rare item.
You'd be better off with a room full of humans.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Theoretically a great form spirit could be Guarding the city it is a bit shaky but people always talk about masking a building because its an object the spirit just calls the city an object and guards that. I'd consider an earthquake something like an accident that a spirit can protect against.

note 1. I would not allow a spirit to earthquake multiple times a CT, it has a duration of minutes I'd say once every few minutes since the spirit is getting it up to steam.
note 2. Bloodmagic is one of the worst things written in the game and requires a DM not to be a dumb ass on things like sapient kittens. But hey even at its core blood magic is a box full of stupid, SR4 should of followed the earlier games and made in NPC only if they wanted it in the game.

[Mordinvan]

Theoretically a great form spirit could be Guarding the city it is a bit shaky but people always talk about masking a building because its an object the spirit just calls the city an object and guards that. I'd consider an earthquake something like an accident that a spirit can protect against.

If it was a naturally occurring quake, I would fully agree. However protecting against an induced quake is like guard trying to prevent a sniper from shooting you. It prevents accidents, not intentional acts of destruction. Also I seriously question any honest reading of the rules to all for a 'city' to qualify as an 'object'.

note 1. I would not allow a spirit to earthquake multiple times a CT, it has a duration of minutes I'd say once every few minutes since the spirit is getting it up to steam.

Nothing mentioned about needing to pick up 'steam', is simply a normal complex action, nothing in the rules would prevent multiple overlapping quakes.

note 2. Bloodmagic is one of the worst things written in the game and requires a DM not to be a dumb ass on things like sapient kittens. But hey even at its core blood magic is a box full of stupid, SR4 should of followed the earlier games and made in NPC only if they wanted it in the game.

There is no reason to make it an NPC only power. To be honest I really HATE games that do that. The problem in this case isn't the blood magic, is the 'quake' power. That should be taken out of the game. As for sapient kittens, its just a spirit using endowment to bestow sapience on kittens, and don't blame for this one, it came up in a vampire thread some time ago.

[sabs]

Well, I suspect that the prevalence of Blood Magic in SR4 is potentially a hearken to Earthdawn. Where everyone and their dutch uncle did blood magic, often with spectacular result. Entire Cities committed ritual suicide in order to trap Horrors.

But the whole Sapient Kitten thing is stupid.
The Earthquake power as written (and tsunami) is trivially too easy. Or perhaps the problem is that Force 12 Spirits are not hard enough to summon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

If it was a naturally occurring quake, I would fully agree. However protecting against an induced quake is like guard trying to prevent a sniper from shooting you. It prevents accidents, not intentional acts of destruction. Also I seriously question any honest reading of the rules to all for a 'city' to qualify as an 'object'.

It is no worse than calling a building an object IMO and if you want to get picky just assume every building of note the city streets etc has a spirit guarding it. And guard guards against accidents whether natural or magical in nature. It even specifies accidents form thew accident power so whether the quake is natural or magical I'm for it.

Nothing mentioned about needing to pick up 'steam', is simply a normal complex action, nothing in the rules would prevent multiple overlapping quakes.

Not specifically but I'd say it was implied and you do have GMs for a reason and that is usually to handle things like this.

There is no reason to make it an NPC only power. To be honest I really HATE games that do that. The problem in this case isn't the blood magic, is the 'quake' power. That should be taken out of the game. As for sapient kittens, its just a spirit using endowment to bestow sapience on kittens, and don't blame for this one, it came up in a vampire thread some time ago.

No I'm pretty sure blood magic is a much bigger problem than earthquake. Earthquake is only a problem with a dick player going out of his way to try to break the system. Blood magic from start to finish is broken.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, I suspect that the prevalence of Blood Magic in SR4 is potentially a hearken to Earthdawn. Where everyone and their dutch uncle did blood magic, often with spectacular result. Entire Cities committed ritual suicide in order to trap Horrors.

But the whole Sapient Kitten thing is stupid.
The Earthquake power as written (and tsunami) is trivially too easy. Or perhaps the problem is that Force 12 Spirits are not hard enough to summon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Honestly it says no spirit like to be bound. It is not GM dickery to say every spirit past force X resists binding attempts with edge, X= to whatever the GM thinks a spirit is powerful enough to really want to put up a fight.

Force 12 spirit or force 8 maybe with multiple attempts, it rolls 24 dice with exploding 6'sx3 hits equals drain, I see a dead mage in your future.

[DireRadiant]

To put it bluntly there is no counter to quake Dire.

The capability to utterly destroy the world is in someone's hand's right now. Today. It'll be there in the future. It''l be there in SR4.

Why is this particular method of invoked spirits with earthquake power problematic? Is it more common then household chemicals?

BTW, what's this Great Ghost Dance thingie that's an integral part of SR Lore? Is it an instance of such use of such power? World's still here.

Edit: It can happen that we are all nice and loving and all get along, but does it happen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just because it can happen doesn't mean it will.

[TommyTwoToes]

Not to take off on a tangent but.... if there were 2 mages, one has geomance (I think that is the one that lets you aspect BC) and the other is the one to summon the Spirit. Can't the mage with geomancy (and Invoking becuase they work so well together) do the binding and invoking inside the BC that is favorable to him? It would reduce the spirit's force temporarily and also increase his magic. This should make the binding / invoking easier (fewer dice rolled by the spirit = less drain)

Mage 1 summons the base spirit Force 12 or so. And has it go into the BC where Mage 2 is waiting to do some binding.

Mage 2 (in his friendly BC of 3-4) binds the spirit and Invokes its greatform. The Spirit will be down to F8-9 and Mage 2 will be at +3-4 Magic for his dicepool.


I apologize if I have the mechanic wrong, going from memory since I am AFB.

[Mordinvan]

Well, I suspect that the prevalence of Blood Magic in SR4 is potentially a hearken to Earthdawn. Where everyone and their dutch uncle did blood magic, often with spectacular result. Entire Cities committed ritual suicide in order to trap Horrors.

But the whole Sapient Kitten thing is stupid.
The Earthquake power as written (and tsunami) is trivially too easy. Or perhaps the problem is that Force 12 Spirits are not hard enough to summon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Using endowment to make sapient kitties is stupid yes. Its also not my idea, as I said I stole it from a thread about vampires. It is however rules legal, which is also stupid, and I again take no responsibility for it.

[Mordinvan]

It is no worse than calling a building an object IMO and if you want to get picky just assume every building of note the city streets etc has a spirit guarding it. And guard guards against accidents whether natural or magical in nature. It even specifies accidents form thew accident power so whether the quake is natural or magical I'm for it.

Problem is, a quake isn't an accident, its an attack. Guard prevents 'accidents' not attacks. If Guard prevented attacks, every runner and their dog would be under the protection of that power 24/7

Not specifically but I'd say it was implied and you do have GMs for a reason and that is usually to handle things like this.

I don't even see it implied. The duration of the power is instantaneous. Meaning as soon as its used, the magical effect is now over. What you have left is the earthquake equivalent of a house on fire after someone fireballs it. Nothing says or implies you have to wait for the fire to go out before you try to burn the house down again.

No I'm pretty sure blood magic is a much bigger problem than earthquake. Earthquake is only a problem with a dick player going out of his way to try to break the system. Blood magic from start to finish is broken.

a power capable of leveling a city isn't a problem? I'm afraid the power has no other use then to be employed by high level spirits for the purpose of destroying cities. If you can't think of another I'd like to hear it, at best I'm coming up with avalanche control, and I can almost guarantee the developers didn't have that on their mind when they thought this little nightmare up.

[Mordinvan]

double post

[Mordinvan]

Honestly it says no spirit like to be bound. It is not GM dickery to say every spirit past force X resists binding attempts with edge, X= to whatever the GM thinks a spirit is powerful enough to really want to put up a fight.

Force 12 spirit or force 8 maybe with multiple attempts, it rolls 24 dice with exploding 6'sx3 hits equals drain, I see a dead mage in your future.

It says spirits will do so if abused in the past. So unless the caster has been doing so, there is no reason for them to act that way. Also, those kittens I'm sacrifing have ~8 boxes of damage each, as they are sapient, each box grants 1 die on the drain resistance test. I use edge as well to get exploding 6's too, and I'm looking at 60+ dice to resist drain with without breaking a sweat. So unless you've abused the spirits in the past, this really shouldn't even happen, but if it does, just make sure you have enough kittens lined up.

[Mordinvan]

Not to take off on a tangent but.... if there were 2 mages, one has geomance (I think that is the one that lets you aspect BC) and the other is the one to summon the Spirit. Can't the mage with geomancy (and Invoking becuase they work so well together) do the binding and invoking inside the BC that is favorable to him? It would reduce the spirit's force temporarily and also increase his magic. This should make the binding / invoking easier (fewer dice rolled by the spirit = less drain)

Mage 1 summons the base spirit Force 12 or so. And has it go into the BC where Mage 2 is waiting to do some binding.

Mage 2 (in his friendly BC of 3-4) binds the spirit and Invokes its greatform. The Spirit will be down to F8-9 and Mage 2 will be at +3-4 Magic for his dicepool.


I apologize if I have the mechanic wrong, going from memory since I am AFB.

Looks about right. Should also be the last time mage 1 tries to summon anything like that again, as I could easily see spirits using edge on all summoning and binding tests after that. Especially cause he did it to a force 12

[sabs]

Mordinvan has proven that there are incredibly badly thought out giant loops holes in the magic system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Endowment power
Earthquake Power

blood sacrifice power.

[Mordinvan]

Mordinvan has proven that there are incredibly badly thought out giant loops holes in the magic system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Endowment power
Earthquake Power

blood sacrifice power.

I fully agree with the first 2, the 3rd I don't think is that bad. But its a matter of personal taste really. But either way, actually having a power who's only real use is to level cities is beyond stupid.

[Doc Chase]

I fully agree with the first 2, the 3rd I don't think is that bad. But its a matter of personal taste really. But either way, actually having a power who's only real use is to level cities is beyond stupid.

I think the real question everyone avoiding is why the Azzies haven't used it in the Yucatan yet.

[Ryu]

a power capable of leveling a city isn't a problem? I'm afraid the power has no other use then to be employed by high level spirits for the purpose of destroying cities. If you can't think of another I'd like to hear it, at best I'm coming up with avalanche control, and I can almost guarantee the developers didn't have that on their mind when they thought this little nightmare up.

It can also be used to defend against an attacking go-gang. A honest to the spirits mistake, yes? (Slightly off-topic since Barcelona took the hit.)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Problem is, a quake isn't an accident, its an attack. Guard prevents 'accidents' not attacks. If Guard prevented attacks, every runner and their dog would be under the protection of that power 24/7

Accident power is an attack as well. This is specifically the type of thing the power was developed to protect against.

I don't even see it implied. The duration of the power is instantaneous. Meaning as soon as its used, the magical effect is now over. What you have left is the earthquake equivalent of a house on fire after someone fireballs it. Nothing says or implies you have to wait for the fire to go out before you try to burn the house down again.

Fine, but I can't see this as anything but a separate service for each quake so how many shots do you really expect to get?

a power capable of leveling a city isn't a problem? I'm afraid the power has no other use then to be employed by high level spirits for the purpose of destroying cities. If you can't think of another I'd like to hear it, at best I'm coming up with avalanche control, and I can almost guarantee the developers didn't have that on their mind when they thought this little nightmare up.

I did not say it wasn't a problem, I do not care for the power. But in general it is only a problem in cases where you have a player trying to break the game. It would be like saying the chemistry skill is broken because you can take out a subway system with gas. It should have worked like the storm power, powerful but even with a dick player probably not breaking the game.

Where as to me every single use of blood magic is there to break the game. The one non-GM discretion check on magic is drain and this removes it. Summon spirits of stupid power so the GM always has to have a godawful backgorund count to make things doable or have you face absurd foes all the time go for it, your one check on power is gone. I guess you can say the same for quake but I think most people who used it were expecting to shake things up and scare people or cause a distraction and not to take out a city since 8 hits is almost impossible on what great forms most people could summon.

As for spirits using edge, there is very few guidelines on when a spirit is allowed to use edge. It is not only when you abuse spirits though if you want to play it that way you can. Spirits do not like to be bound, a spirit with a 8+logic, willpower etc why the hell wouldn't they use edge to resist the binding. They don't want to be bound they could be stuck there for a year and a day which they really don't want, explain why the spirit is not using edge other than you think that means the GM is being a dick. Trying to resist something you really don't want to happen seems like the classical place to use edge to me.

[Mordinvan]

Accident power is an attack as well. This is specifically the type of thing the power was developed to protect against.

Uh... no it's not. I don't see anywhere under "guard's" description that it defends against magical attacks other then "accident". Guard may protect you from catching a stray bullet in a fire fight, but won't do a think if the barrel is in your mouth when the trigger is pulled.

Fine, but I can't see this as anything but a separate service for each quake so how many shots do you really expect to get?

Long term binding. A use of a power is not a "Service" a fulfillment of a task is a service. This has only been gone over a dozen times. So tell it, I want you to continuously use your quake power here for a year and a day. So barring intervention (which would happen reasonable soon) you should expect about 42163200 uses of the power, or a little over 1/second.

I did not say it wasn't a problem, I do not care for the power. But in general it is only a problem in cases where you have a player trying to break the game. It would be like saying the chemistry skill is broken because you can take out a subway system with gas. It should have worked like the storm power, powerful but even with a dick player probably not breaking the game.

Give me a use for this power which is not game breaking? The only one I can think of is avalanche control, aside from that, you either level cities, or accomplish pretty much nothing. It doesn't leave a lot of room for middle ground.

Where as to me every single use of blood magic is there to break the game. The one non-GM discretion check on magic is drain and this removes it. Summon spirits of stupid power so the GM always has to have a godawful backgorund count to make things doable or have you face absurd foes all the time go for it, your one check on power is gone. I guess you can say the same for quake but I think most people who used it were expecting to shake things up and scare people or cause a distraction and not to take out a city since 8 hits is almost impossible on what great forms most people could summon.

If you think that in the middle of a fight you're going to slit someone's throat, while casting a spell to help with the drain, and not be in whole heaps of trouble, then I think you could be not thinking it through enough.

As for spirits using edge, there is very few guidelines on when a spirit is allowed to use edge. It is not only when you abuse spirits though if you want to play it that way you can. Spirits do not like to be bound, a spirit with a 8+logic, willpower etc why the hell wouldn't they use edge to resist the binding. They don't want to be bound they could be stuck there for a year and a day which they really don't want, explain why the spirit is not using edge other than you think that means the GM is being a dick. Trying to resist something you really don't want to happen seems like the classical place to use edge to me.

For a very simple reason. If spirits commonly used edge to resist binding, and especially long term binding, it would not be common for spirits to be bound to corporate property for security purposes. But according to street magic, this is a very common application of long term binding. Now if I was a spirit and angry enough to use my edge, I'd spell the whole year guarding the broom closet, just to mess with the summoner, or I'd use my most destructive combat abilities at maximum force to cause the most collateral damage possible just to keep them from ever using long term binding again. But since long term binding is actually common in the security world, one should assume this isn't happening. So obviously spirits can't dislike it as bad as you think they do.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unless the character had previously screwed his spirits rather profoundly in the past, they won't even use edge, let alone burn edge. Now where do you get the spending Karma to do, or not do something? As I don't see that anywhere. Gm's being asshats and blatantly breaking the rules of spirit summoning without cause would actually get me to try something like burning down a city, or killing all the ceo's of his favorite corporation.

You continue to say that, but I have yet to see a RAW Rules Quote that supports that line of reasoning... Anywhere within the Rules... Nor is it in teh Oft maligned FAQ to my knowledge, nor any Arrata...

The simple fact is this... Spirits have Edge, They can use Edge in the same situations as a Character can use Edge, Nothing stops them from spending their Edge to resist the Summoning/Binding/Invoking a a Summoner... Because they have a Edge Attribute, they are allowed to use it just like any other character with an Edge Attribute... There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Edge expenditure, nor does it blatantly break the rules...

Simple and case closed... It cannot be refuted within the rules... All that is left is preference... Apparently your preference is to not allow the Spirit to Use their Edge as they see fit... that is definitely your perrogative. Please do not say that I am breaking the rules by allowing the spirits to use their Edge as tehy choose, because you are blatantly worong on that point...

Keep the Faith

[Mordinvan]

You continue to say that, but I have yet to see a RAW Rules Quote that supports that line of reasoning... Anywhere within the Rules... Nor is it in teh Oft maligned FAQ to my knowledge, nor any Arrata...

The simple fact is this... Spirits have Edge, They can use Edge in the same situations as a Character can use Edge, Nothing stops them from spending their Edge to resist the Summoning/Binding/Invoking a a Summoner... Because they have a Edge Attribute, they are allowed to use it just like any other character with an Edge Attribute... There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Edge expenditure, nor does it blatantly break the rules...

Simple and case closed... It cannot be refuted within the rules... All that is left is preference... Apparently your preference is to not allow the Spirit to Use their Edge as they see fit... that is definitely your perrogative. Please do not say that I am breaking the rules by allowing the spirits to use their Edge as tehy choose, because you are blatantly worong on that point...

Keep the Faith

It actually does say in the books the spirits will not normally use edge unless they have been abused by the summoner. So ya it is in there. As I said above however, if the DM is the sort to have them use it whenever he feels like it, especially during summoning, or binding, if I haven't been abusive to them, then I'll start, and likely burn down a city or 2.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Uh... no it's not. I don't see anywhere under "guard's" description that it defends against magical attacks other then "accident". Guard may protect you from catching a stray bullet in a fire fight, but won't do a think if the barrel is in your mouth when the trigger is pulled.

Well guard came out before quake so it wont be specifically mentioned but it protects from things like avalanches. It never says it protects against an avalanche unless it was caused by a spirit.

Long term binding. A use of a power is not a "Service" a fulfillment of a task is a service. This has only been gone over a dozen times. So tell it, I want you to continuously use your quake power here for a year and a day. So barring intervention (which would happen reasonable soon) you should expect about 42163200 uses of the power, or a little over 1/second.

If you want to allow spirits to do that, it is your game. But I don't think it follows what you need to do by the letter of the rules.

Give me a use for this power which is not game breaking? The only one I can think of is avalanche control, aside from that, you either level cities, or accomplish pretty much nothing. It doesn't leave a lot of room for middle ground.

1-6 successes count as a distraction will set off vibration sensors and a wide variety of other ancillary effects.

If you think that in the middle of a fight you're going to slit someone's throat, while casting a spell to help with the drain, and not be in whole heaps of trouble, then I think you could be not thinking it through enough.

Hard to do in a fight, but farking easy to do every single time you summon up a powerful spirit for the day and every time you bind. So yeah it is broken from start to finish and if manage a way to do it in combat, broken as hell there to.

For a very simple reason. If spirits commonly used edge to resist binding, and especially long term binding, it would not be common for spirits to be bound to corporate property for security purposes. But according to street magic, this is a very common application of long term binding. Now if I was a spirit and angry enough to use my edge, I'd spell the whole year guarding the broom closet, just to mess with the summoner, or I'd use my most destructive combat abilities at maximum force to cause the most collateral damage possible just to keep them from ever using long term binding again. But since long term binding is actually common in the security world, one should assume this isn't happening. So obviously spirits can't dislike it as bad as you think they do.

It would stop high force binding yes. And I do not have a problem with that at all. A force 4ish spirit probably could still be bound and force 3s would probably still be common. And I think in most cases long term bound spirits do follow the letter of the instruction giving as little as they can, because again they find it distasteful.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It actually does say in the books the spirits will not normally use edge unless they have been abused by the summoner. So ya it is in there. As I said above however, if the DM is the sort to have them use it whenever he feels like it, especially during summoning, or binding, if I haven't been abusive to them, then I'll start, and likely burn down a city or 2.

Page Number please...

And not bloody likely at our table... And for a Table Reference, ALL Force 3 or lower Spirits do not spend Edge... unless you piss them off... Any Spirits Force 4+ ALWAYS spend Edge unless you have taken great pains to actually appease the spirit... Pretty much within the rules...

Keep the Faith