CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[MindandPen]

AH, what do you think we will get from IMR/CGL? What, in your opinion, will Shadowrun be like moving forward?

-M&P

[Rotbart van Dain...]

the decision to withhold copyright was looking out for number one, and not about sending a message.

So, making sure not getting paid for finished work is looking out for number one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
Because that's what canceling the contracts and withdrawing copyright for finished product is about – losing money for sure.

[Ancient History]

Okay, obviously you've read what I wrote but completely failed to or refuse to comprehend my points. Believe it or not, I didn't withhold copyright just to "look out for number one." Nor was the decision of several Shadowrun freelancers any sort of coordinated effort. I can honestly say these things because, as I said before, I did not withhold my copyrights when this mess first started. I had withheld my copyrights several weeks earlier - causing Jason to tear his hair and accuse me of being greedy - in an effort to force the issue with Catalyst because as freelancers went I was uniquely positioned to do so. When the rest of the Shadowrun freelancers started withholding copyrights, I was already paid up. I was working. I didn't terminate my contracts until Jason kicked me out for telling the truth, and even then in the case where I was partnered with someone else, I attributed the drafts entirely to them so they could continue to work on it unhindered.

[LurkerOutThere]

Personally it could be construed that Bobby cancelled his contracts at the exact moment possible to do the maximum amount of damage to the release process because he was angry with the way things we going. That is my read having little to no knowledge of the situation. Was it within his rights? Certainly, did he do it to cause maximum damage, I suspect so.

[Ancient History]

AH, what do you think we will get from IMR/CGL? What, in your opinion, will Shadowrun be like moving forward?

-M&P

I think you're in for ebooks. Lots of ebooks, as many as Jason and the people at BattleTech can get people to put out. I doubt you'll see print releases, because as far as I know they still owe several printers money. I doubt the SR books will be of the highest quality, because Jason doesn't know the system or the setting well enough to judge quality, and because he has no vision for the line. I cannot speak about BattleTech in that regard, but I think if the situation gets dire enough at IMR Randall Bills might actively try to sink the line, because he reportedly made a statement to that effect during an owner's meeting. I can't say if that was hyperbole or not, since I wasn't there, but I don't trust him and wouldn't put it past him.

So many of the SR books have been so compromised from their original vision under their original developers that they're almost unrecognizable. The Sixth World Almanac has had so many troubles. The original vision - a sort of CIA factbook coffee table book - has been compromised and compromised again, until we're down to something like 40 countries. I won't go into the horrors that occurred when Marc Tassin was put on the project out of nowhere. The maps are good, the flags are brilliant. The writing on large chunks of it is probably going to be dire. I think anyone that has been reading these knows my opinion about War! and the Horizon adventures, and I don't expect those to change either, because there's no will on the part of the line developer to change it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I cannot speak about BattleTech in that regard, but I think if the situation gets dire enough at IMR Randall Bills might actively try to sink the line, because he reportedly made a statement to that effect during an owner's meeting. I can't say if that was hyperbole or not, since I wasn't there, but I don't trust him and wouldn't put it past him.

Given how some BT fans apotheosize him, that surely would have a certain irony to it.

[Ancient History]

Personally it could be construed that Bobby cancelled his contracts at the exact moment possible to do the maximum amount of damage to the release process because he was angry with the way things we going. That is my read having little to no knowledge of the situation. Was it within his rights? Certainly, did he do it to cause maximum damage, I suspect so.

If by "at the exact moment possible to do the maximum amount of damage" you mean "the very fucking moment that Jason kicked me off of the freelancer forums because I told someone else he was a liar, which I've said at least eight or nine times now" then you would be pretty much correct.

If I really wanted to damage IMR, I would not have accepted payment for Vice - they would have had to pulp the entire run or risk a copyright lawsuit.

[BTFreeLancer]

Okay, obviously you've read what I wrote but completely failed to or refuse to comprehend my points.

well, I addressed both you personally, and the SR freelancers who withheld copyright in the same response, so I apologize if that was unclear.

Believe it or not, I didn't withhold copyright just to "look out for number one."

And as I said, I have a different viewpoint - I think you looked out for number one, just not with a financial motivation. That I attributed to those who withheld copyright.

Nor was the decision of several Shadowrun freelancers any sort of coordinated effort.

which is why I said they were looking out for themselves - because they're not stupid people, and they knew forcing the issue would have repercussions. But as long as they were the ones getting compensated, they didn't care what happened with the rest of us. Which as I said is fine - that *is* their prerogative.

But my point, belabored as it is, is that the guys who have stuck with CGL (including every BT freelancer btw - no one has quit or kicked up a stink on our end - maybe we're just more passive); like Randall, Ken`, etc etc - shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as Loren, simply because they haven't jumped ship.

you can say you weren't motivated by personal interest - but you were. You didn't want to be associated with a company that did the things it did, and treated the freelancers the way it has. I would never say anyone canceling contracts and the like were motivated by greed - I'd say they were motivated by self-preservation. And as mentioned you could step away without much hassle - the other owners can't step away so easily

[Ancient History]

which is why I said they were looking out for themselves - because they're not stupid people, and they knew forcing the issue would have repercussions. But as long as they were the ones getting compensated, they didn't care what happened with the rest of us. Which as I said is fine - that *is* their prerogative.

Okay, now my Irish is up. It's one thing to accuse me of being a greedy bastard, but how the hell do you have the gall to accuse those other freelancers - people you can't even fucking name because you don't know shit about it? You want to make that kind of claim, you back it the fuck up. I accuse people to their face and by name and with every good argument and supporting material I can muster. If you want to smear an entire group of hardworking people whom you don't even know with nothing more than your shits-for-brain gut to guide you by, then that's cowardice and libel.

But my point, belabored as it is, is that the guys who have stuck with CGL (including every BT freelancer btw - no one has quit or kicked up a stink on our end - maybe we're just more passive); like Randall, Ken`, etc etc - shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as Loren, simply because they haven't jumped ship.

Randall made an active decision to stay with Loren and support him. We have his letter stating that position. Ken' Horner has made his own claims on the matter. Their particular positions are complicated by the fact that each is an owner and cannot extricate himself as easily or neatly as pure freelancers - but they also make their own choices as to why and how they stay and participate. IMR would not have lasted this long if Randall had done the right thing and taken steps against Loren.

BattleTech folk, and those Shadowrun freelancers that have not jumped ship, I make no claim of judgment on. I hold myself to a higher standard than others. If they choose to stay, that's on them. People like Bull and Jason, I understand their reasons, even if I don't share them. Others, like David Hill - I have my own opinion on.

[Grinder]

Thread locked for the next 24 hours to give everyone a chance to cool down and consider what he/she wants to post here.

[Grinder]

Unlocked with the hope that everyone plays nice.

[Kid Chameleon]

You want to make that kind of claim, you back it the fuck up.

Why should (s)he have to do that? You've been smearing other writers, most of who's work I doubt you've read, for writing stuff you also haven't read yet. Shit, there's been plenty of baseless accusations in this whole matter. It just seems par for the course at this point.

[Ancient History]

Why should (s)he have to do that? You've been smearing other writers, most of who's work I doubt you've read, for writing stuff you also haven't read yet. Shit, there's been plenty of baseless accusations in this whole matter. It just seems par for the course at this point.

You would doubt wrong. I have something to back up everything I've said. Can you say the same?

[Rojo]

I am just excited to see what happens next....

In this thread (a few passionate people posting)

With who gets to publish BT & SR (I hope SR continues to get published with good quality work)

The bankrupcy hearings (then hopefully the financial situation will become more public record and everyone won't be guessing about everything)

It is going to be a fun June of reading

Rojo

[Demonseed Elite]

My take is that the freelancers who withheld copyright or terminated contracts are acting with a combination of self-interest and shared interest. Which, let's be honest, is the exact same set of motivations that the other freelancers, who continue to write, are guided by.

If you withhold copyright or terminate a contract, part of the reason for doing so is likely that you don't believe someone else should be profiting from your work, especially if there's a concern that those profits are not being used wisely, properly or legally. That's self-interest. It could also be due to creative differences, which are also self-interest. But in the most recent cases, there's a shared interest also. Many of these freelancers withheld copyright or terminated contracts because they were also drawing a line against how freelance workers should be treated. That's why I post pretty openly about my problems with CGL (which were two years ago). It's not in my self-interest to be vocal about it, it could prevent me from writing for Shadowrun or other games in the future. But I also believe that if I shut up about it, I'm part of the problem. Because the guy that replaces me on a piece may not know about how I or others were treated and it's not fair to him or any other freelancer if this behavior becomes the norm.

The freelancers who continue to write do so out of their own self-interest, as well as a shared interest that they believe the best thing for CGL freelancers is for the publisher to continue to exist, mostly because publishers that don't exist don't write checks (and some believe the games are healthier under CGL). I wholly and totally disagree with that view at this stage of the situation, but that is their decision.

[darthmord]

Why should (s)he have to do that? You've been smearing other writers, most of who's work I doubt you've read, for writing stuff you also haven't read yet. Shit, there's been plenty of baseless accusations in this whole matter. It just seems par for the course at this point.

Be that as it may, BTFreelancer is going above and beyond AH's actions. He's being specifically inflammatory toward AH (IMO). Why? I have no idea. Based on everything I've read, AH has been above aboard and honest. Even some of those who disagree with him or his reasoning have agreed.

BTF is also painting the other BT freelancers as poor, pitiful, us who are loyal followers while painting SR freelancers in a negative light.

Seems a bit sanctimonious to me.

AFAICT, each freelancer (regardless of writing base) has made their own choice to stay or go on whatever criteria worked for them. How about we just accept that freelancers made some decisions and leave it at that? Or do we have to endure yet more 'poor pitiful us' from the BT side of the house?

For the record, I stopped playing BattleTech a few years back because of attitudes like we've seen here. Funnily enough, that particular instance of attitude came from people in charge. Seeing it in a freelancer from that side of things doesn't surprise me either.

As for speculation (the purpose of the thread), IMO it is rather telling that we've not seen an announcement yet indicating license renewal. Maybe we'll see something Tuesday, June 1st.

[LurkerOutThere]

Be that as it may, BTFreelancer is going above and beyond AH's actions. He's being specifically inflammatory toward AH (IMO). Why? I have no idea. Based on everything I've read, AH has been above aboard and honest. Even some of those who disagree with him or his reasoning have agreed.

You don't suppose it's because AH has turned his difference with his boss or his difference with management into a personal crusade using DS as a platform? That he has ragged on or slandered people that BT considers friends all because ultimately he couldn't grasp that if you talk bad about your boss and leak confidential information there might be repercussions of it?

Do you really think that taken in the course of events AH's crusade here is anything more then an employee's sour grapes? He had a pissing match with management it didn't go well for him, now despite all his considerable ego his only hope of working for the franchise again, because he's proven so untrustworthy, is that the company goes down in flames and the one to pick up the license absolutely agrees with his actions and will overlook his bad behavior. Because he's basically proven that nothing said to him in confidence will be kept in confidence if it suits him. Speaking personally that's not someone I'd hire even If I liked them.

Basically when it comes down to it AH is really upset he's not the line developer.

[Dread Moores]

Be that as it may, BTFreelancer is going above and beyond AH's actions. He's being specifically inflammatory toward AH (IMO). Why? I have no idea. Based on everything I've read, AH has been above aboard and honest. Even some of those who disagree with him or his reasoning have agreed.

Well, that's not exclusive to just BTFreelancer. I think Ancient would be the first to admit he's had a number of "specifically inflammatory" moments regarding Jason and future work. That's not meant to say either one is excusable. There's been a whole lot of acrimony on both sides of that fence.

As for speculation (the purpose of the thread), IMO it is rather telling that we've not seen an announcement yet indicating license renewal. Maybe we'll see something Tuesday, June 1st.

No, it's really not. The previous license renewal was not posted until much later in the month. This isn't an excuse for CGL (I'm actually quite hoping that they don't retain the license), just judging from prior license renewals for this and other companies. They're not an immediate thing that pops up at the start of the month. It's has been several weeks past the due date with CGL previously, and that was under much less stressful conditions. It's also been several weeks past the due date in the past with both Red Brick and Living Room Games. No process like this is ever quick, or timely.

Do you really think that taken in the course of events AH's crusade here is anything more then an employee's sour grapes? He had a pissing match with management it didn't go well for him, now despite all his considerable ego his only hope of working for the franchise again, because he's proven so untrustworthy, is that the company goes down in flames and the one to pick up the license absolutely agrees with his actions and will overlook his bad behavior. Because he's basically proven that nothing said to him in confidence will be kept in confidence if it suits him. Speaking personally that's not someone I'd hire even If I liked them.

Basically when it comes down to it AH is really upset he's not the line developer.

Even Ancient and I haven't seen eye to eye on some of his more emotional outbursts, and have discussed that here and elsewhere. I don't agree with everything he's said or done, but even I'll note that I think the last line is a bit absurd there, Lurker. He's never once made the claim to desire such a position. Would he like his work to continue? Sure, I think that's obvious and not surprising. Line developer? Yeah, that's reaching for a poor excuse for an insult tossed Bobbie's way.

[Fuchs]

"Talking bad" about a boss who has co-mingled funds, or who supports that person who co-mingled funds, is not a bad thing. Slander is not slander if you can prove it's true.

[Grinder]

Ancient History doesn't only "talk bad" about Coleman, but seems to have become bitter over his disagreement with Jason M. Hardy. Ever since his break up with CGL, AH let not possibility pass to speak bad of the current books, the Line Developer and the freelancers working for CGL. That's highly annoying.

[Ancient History]

You don't suppose it's because AH has turned his difference with his boss or his difference with management into a personal crusade using DS as a platform? That he has ragged on or slandered people that BT considers friends all because ultimately he couldn't grasp that if you talk bad about your boss and leak confidential information there might be repercussions of it?

I have not leaked any confidential information. Not once. I don't have an NDA on file, and I still haven't leaked the substance of any upcoming sourcebook, or the text of any draft, or talked plainly about any active plans or details not covered elsewhere. My sole indiscretion was rendering a diatribe against one of Jason's drafts in public - and that was a dick move, not because I revealed any confidential information, but because there was no way for Jason to refute it or anyone to confirm it, because the draft was sight unseen.

Do you really think that taken in the course of events AH's crusade here is anything more then an employee's sour grapes? He had a pissing match with management it didn't go well for him, now despite all his considerable ego his only hope of working for the franchise again, because he's proven so untrustworthy, is that the company goes down in flames and the one to pick up the license absolutely agrees with his actions and will overlook his bad behavior. Because he's basically proven that nothing said to him in confidence will be kept in confidence if it suits him. Speaking personally that's not someone I'd hire even If I liked them.

What "pissing match" are you talking about? I had my bouts with Jason, but not concerning the events leading up to my leaving.

Basically when it comes down to it AH is really upset he's not the line developer.

Actually, no. I don't want to be line developer and never have. I want to write. If you knew anything about what you think you're talking about, you'd know most line developers don't have that much opportunity to write.

[Ancient History]

Ancient History doesn't only "talk bad" about Coleman, but seems to have become bitter over his disagreement with Jason M. Hardy. Ever since his break up with CGL, AH let not possibility pass to speak bad of the current books, the Line Developer and the freelancers working for CGL. That's highly annoying.

Jason and I didn't get along well while I was working for CGL, and since then my opinion has grown steadily southwards. It might be acerbic, but it really annoys the shit out of me when Jason tries to play the PR flack. It might be annoying, but I don't pretend it's anything other than my bitter little opinion.

[Black Jack Rackh...]

If by "at the exact moment possible to do the maximum amount of damage" you mean "the very fucking moment that Jason kicked me off of the freelancer forums because I told someone else he was a liar, which I've said at least eight or nine times now" then you would be pretty much correct.

If I really wanted to damage IMR, I would not have accepted payment for Vice - they would have had to pulp the entire run or risk a copyright lawsuit.

You know Bobby, the most amazing thing about the whole 'Villify Bobby' commentary that I've read thus far is, as far as I can tell, I wrote a bit on damn near every single one of the books you did AND I withdrew my copyright much earlier (in effect doing the 'maximum amount of damage' as described above). But I haven't heard a single voice saying "DAMN that Mark sure is EVIL!!!"

So Thanks from me for taking the hit for all those of us who haven't been talking much about this.

Oh and for the record my horse in this race is is, I want to be paid for the work I've done. I wanted to believe IMR/CGL was motivated to make good product and would live up to their obligations. I sat silently for quite some time without getting paid (well over a year) and when I finally groused about not getting paid, they simply replaced me for the projects I hadn't finished (and stated that I wouldn't until I was paid what I was owed). Am I bitter, Hell yes. Is there a certain level of personal satisfaction that some folks are squirming now? Sure. Would I write more Shadowrun? In a minute if I believed in my employers professionalism.

Mark Edwards

[Fuchs]

Ancient History doesn't only "talk bad" about Coleman, but seems to have become bitter over his disagreement with Jason M. Hardy. Ever since his break up with CGL, AH let not possibility pass to speak bad of the current books, the Line Developer and the freelancers working for CGL. That's highly annoying.

Critizing books or people who support Coleman is not a bad thing either. If people cannot stand an opinion, they can ignore the poster.

[Grinder]

Jason and I didn't get along well while I was working for CGL, and since then my opinion has grown steadily southwards. It might be acerbic, but it really annoys the shit out of me when Jason tries to play the PR flack. It might be annoying, but I don't pretend it's anything other than my bitter little opinion.

At least you're honest about it.

@Fuchs: of course!