CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Kid Chameleon]

You would doubt wrong. I have something to back up everything I've said. Can you say the same?

Yup. How about you put up a brief synopsis of what's wrong with what the new writers have written. You don't have to go into detail, just "Bob Smith-Inaccurate, poor writing, can't conjugate verbs correctly"

[Kid Chameleon]

Critizing books or people who support Coleman is not a bad thing either. If people cannot stand an opinion, they can ignore the poster.

I think there is a big misconception about who actually supports Loren Coleman.

[Tiger Eyes]

Yup. How about you put up a brief synopsis of what's wrong with what the new writers have written. You don't have to go into detail, just "Bob Smith-Inaccurate, poor writing, can't conjugate verbs correctly"

Ken, please. Bobby already apologized for commenting on a draft that has yet to be published. There was an uproar over it, and Bobby has admitted he was wrong. Asking him to do so, again, is not particularly professional.

[lehesu]

Ken, please. Bobby already apologized for commenting on a draft that has yet to be published. There was an uproar over it, and Bobby has admitted he was wrong. Asking him to do so, again, is not particularly professional.

I figured KC meant that AH should criticize some extant work that has already been published.

[Tiger Eyes]

I figured KC meant that AH should criticize some extant work that has already been published.

Outside of Spells and Chrome (which was written well over a year ago), nothing has been published that hasn't been primarily written by the core freelancers. The last printed products were Vice (started when Peter Taylor was line developer) and Midnight (again, started when Peter Taylor was line developer).

[Kid Chameleon]

Ken, please. Bobby already apologized for commenting on a draft that has yet to be published. There was an uproar over it, and Bobby has admitted he was wrong. Asking him to do so, again, is not particularly professional.

I'm not talking about Hardy's writing, I'm talking about all the other writers he's insulted, myself included. He apparently has read our other stuff, I'd like to see what is so terrible about the collective bunch of us.

[Ancient History]

If you really want me to kvetch about something, there's Jason's 500-word intro fiction in Vice (p.173). I fought with him about that one. Hell, I rewrote it at one point, though he didn't accept that version. It's just...bad. Ignores the normal intro fiction conventions, bland as hell, a really stupid plot point, and that's if you can bother to wade through the prose. It has all the downsides to a corporate meeting (sitting around talking instead of doing anything) run by idiots that don't know what they're doing ("We need to show we're tough on crime!" "Let's target shadowrunners!" "Right!").

[/edit]

I'm not talking about Hardy's writing, I'm talking about all the other writers he's insulted, myself included. He apparently has read our other stuff, I'd like to see what is so terrible about the collective bunch of us.

I'm gonna answer this one as a PM.

[LurkerOutThere]

Well I reckon it would have gone better with Sticks in it, maybe he and Ryan Mercury could duke it out..

[Grinder]

The first intro fiction with devgrrll and Pistons is nearly as bad - who wrote that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you really want me to kvetch about something, there's Jason's 500-word intro fiction in Vice (p.173). I fought with him about that one. Hell, I rewrote it at one point, though he didn't accept that version. It's just...bad. Ignores the normal intro fiction conventions, bland as hell, a really stupid plot point, and that's if you can bother to wade through the prose. It has all the downsides to a corporate meeting (sitting around talking instead of doing anything) run by idiots that don't know what they're doing ("We need to show we're tough on crime!" "Let's target shadowrunners!" "Right!").

One thing that I have found over the years is that Writers tend to not like Other Writer's style or content, especially if they feel they can write it better... It does not mean that the Other's writing is bad, but that it is just not up to someone else's personal standards...

I can honestly say that the writing for 4th Edition has been very, very good, at least in my opinion, and I have yet to find any thing written by the contributors (whether they be Freelancers or not) that I have found lacking... Yes, I like some authors better than others, but that does not mean that I think that the work of those I do not prefer is bad, for any of it.

Taste's Differ... Not everyone will have the same opinion...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Ancient History]

The first intro fiction with devgrrll and Pistons is nearly as bad - who wrote that?

That would be me.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If you really want me to kvetch about something, there's Jason's 500-word intro fiction in Vice (p.173).

Ah, that little… gem. Funny how it manages to completely ignore the kanon from Seattle 2072 (p. 194) in the very frist line – that is, KE specifically hiring former LS veterans… for rookie conditions.

Believe it or not, but I can picture lots of people who are going to love it. No matter how stupid it is to go after runners instead of tertiary gangs – because it makes the life of a runner oh so much more… noir.

[BTFreeLancer]

Be that as it may, BTFreelancer is going above and beyond AH's actions.

Agreed - I inadvertently made it about Bobby and I, when it has no bearing on the situation at hand. I've apologized to him in PM, and I'll do it here publicly. How he chooses to respond is his choice.

BTF is also painting the other BT freelancers as poor, pitiful, us who are loyal followers while painting SR freelancers in a negative light.

no, I specifically said those SR freelancers who withheld copyright. Guys like Bobby, Jay Levine etc etc who have their own issues with IMR; I have no issue with. And it wasn't a case of painting the others in a negative light - it was a case of disagreeing with their actions. I'm largely ambivalent about the people in question (largely as I have no idea who they are - and if I really cared, it would not be hard to find out), but as stated, I disagreed with their actions. I gave my reasons earlier. Note: I also have no problems with those guys withholding copyright - that's their choice and right; I just disagree with the way they did it.

Seems a bit sanctimonious to me.

that's your choice. Not going to try and change your mind either way

Or do we have to endure yet more 'poor pitiful us' from the BT side of the house?

Let me make it clear - I'm representing myself here, and assumed the nom de plume I did to establish my bona fides when making comments. As far as I know, there's no feeling of "poor pitiful us" on the BT side of things, as it's not even really mentioned, either officially on unofficially. Which to be honest is frustrating, but demonstrates the faith, whether misplaced or not, that the BT core group has in Herb, Ben and Randall.

For the record, I stopped playing BattleTech a few years back because of attitudes like we've seen here. Funnily enough, that particular instance of attitude came from people in charge. Seeing it in a freelancer from that side of things doesn't surprise me either.

That's your prerogative. In my experience, the only time there's any sort of "attitude" from anyone on the BT side of things is when people try to propose their own stuff to the developers, despite repeatedly being told not to. Then again, BT has existed in near enough it's current form for 25 years. The Line Developer has a number of standard answers for frequently asked questions and you know what Standard Answer #1 is? "If it works for your game - whatever you want it to be". Games are meant to be fun <shrug>

[Catadmin]

Okay, then. Let's talk SR fiction in detail. What is it y'all want to see in a 500 piece of intro fiction? What makes it good (or bad) in your mind?

What rules of thumb do you judge these vignettes by?

This is not a sarcastic question, BTW. I am truly interested because 500 words limits are a witch (change first letter) to write a decent story in. I'm used to higher word counts and being able to have an actual plot and plot resolution.

[BTFreeLancer]

This is not a sarcastic question, BTW. I am truly interested because 500 words limits are a witch (change first letter) to write a decent story in. I'm used to higher word counts and being able to have an actual plot and plot resolution.

500 words? We get a bigger word count for that in a single TRO!

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What rules of thumb do you judge these vignettes by?

Since tropes are pretty much unavoidable anyway:
Kanon compliance. Basic logical consistency. And relevance to the following chapter.

[Ancient History]

In SR intro fictions, we're generally supposed to have at least one shadowtalker and have it be relevant to the section. Those are pretty basic requirements. Personally I liked writing 500 word intro fictions, even if they are challenging.

[Catadmin]

In SR intro fictions, we're generally supposed to have at least one shadowtalker and have it be relevant to the section.

Relevant to the section, I get. And I do like the challenge too, but I recall reading a lot of intro fiction that doesn't have a shadowtalker in it. Was that just the earlier stuff, then?

[Demonseed Elite]

Not much room for plot in 500 words, so I tended not to focus much on that. I usually focused on describing a scene that I thought was representative of the material in the chapter.

I've written two of those 500 word intro fiction pieces in SR4, the Ares orbital station piece before the Astral Space and the Metaplanes section of Street Magic and the Ma'fan high-rise cat burglar piece at the start of the Hong Kong write-up in Runner Havens.

Those 500 word pieces are certainly challenging, I agree with that.

[Ancient History]

It's a guideline. Relevance is more important, particularly if you're illustrating an important scene. It used to be emphasized more.

[Prime Mover]

Relevance,canon consistency and some punch. I'm not saying meta-plot changing themes but my favorite vignettes have been ones that aren't just generic scenes but touch on a subject that might highlight some history or greater theme. Its the latter that I go back to read over a few times. SR4A had a few of these. (although to be fair the sr4a stories had more then 500 words)

[Cheops]

What do you think the possibility is of CGL or another publisher replacing the fiction with Exalted-style (in function not in art) comics at the start of each chapter? A picture is worth a 1000 words after all...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What do you think the possibility is of CGL or another publisher replacing the fiction with Exalted-style (in function not in art) comics at the start of each chapter? A picture is worth a 1000 words after all...

I would not vote for that, and after all, you would only get half of a picture at that point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Doc Byte]

That's an interesting topic as I've be writing intro fiction for the German translation of the first two Denver Missions. I'll have to take some points into consideration when we'll translate more missions.

[JongWK]

What do you think the possibility is of CGL or another publisher replacing the fiction with Exalted-style (in function not in art) comics at the start of each chapter? A picture is worth a 1000 words after all...

From what little I know about the RPG industry, it would probably cost more money than paying someone to write 500 words.