CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Grinder]

The first intro fiction with devgrrll and Pistons is nearly as bad - who wrote that?

That would be me.

My bets had been on Jennifer Harding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) Anyway, didn't like the characters, didn't like the setting, didn't like the overall story. But that's my gripe with both shadowtalk characters overall.

[JongWK]

From what little I know about the RPG industry, it would probably cost more money than paying someone to write 500 words.

From here:

1/8 page $25
1/4 Page $50
1/2 Page $75
3/4 Page $100
Full Page $150
Color Page $2,000

EDIT: It boggles my mind that the (old) login info for the FTP site has been out in the open all this time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Ancient History]

My bets had been on Jennifer Harding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) Anyway, didn't like the characters, didn't like the setting, didn't like the overall story. But that's my gripe with both shadowtalk characters overall.

It was cannibalized from an earlier story. Lotta times, we're rushed to writewritewrite and then it sits and rots in the devbox for months before it gets to proofing.

[Tiger Eyes]

It was cannibalized from an earlier story. Lotta times, we're rushed to writewritewrite and then it sits and rots in the devbox for months before it gets to proofing.

I really really enjoyed the story you cannibalized it from, but I would say that it lost something in being condensed. But that's the way things go - I had more than one occasion where I was asked for a 500 word story and given an hour turn around time... only to see the project get parked for months afterwards.

That's what happens when there's just no money to print. (Although I will say that the delays as things went through the process were often wretched all around; rush rush rush... siiiiiiiiit.... rush rush rush.... siiiiiit... etc).

[Grinder]

It was cannibalized from an earlier story. Lotta times, we're rushed to writewritewrite and then it sits and rots in the devbox for months before it gets to proofing.

No need to try to blame Jason Hardy again - I don't care how much time passed between writing and proofreading and possibly re-writing, I simply don't like the characters and the particular setting of the intro fiction.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What officially sanctioned characters (see the ST list) do you like, then?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Double post, meh.

[Ancient History]

I wasn't blaming Jason for that one. Hell, aside from that bit of shitty intro fiction I pointed out earlier, Jason has almost nothing to do with Vice.

[/edit]It's the nature of the beast that is Catalyst. The system of writing and developing books has been screwed up for a long time. Jason's just the latest inheritor of that, and I don't hold accountable for that. I blame him for only those things he has done, or chooses not to do.

[General Pax]

It took me some time to muscle through this mess and all I can say is wow.

I work in an industry that revolves around outsourced help. 'Freelancers' if you will. After reading thru this mess, I don't understand how people like ancient history or frank trollmen expect to ever find work again after the way they've behaved. No, after the way they are behaving even months after the fact.

It is admirable to quit a job on allegedly moral grounds, though that seems to be more of a catalyst in this situation than an honest to god reason. It is impressive to defend your fellows who did the same thing. It is questionable to air the dirty laundry in such a public manner when legal options were available. It is however outright unprofessional to 'blow the whistle' on a company. It is completely cowardly to do it through a third party. And it is career suicide to do all of these things while constantly and consistently badmouthing fellow writers, tenaciously attack anyone who questions their motives, try to burn down fan sites despite them tolerating this inexcusable behavior, accuse people who either don't buy it or frown upon the way you go about things as 'loving' or 'defending' the 'enemy,' and otherwise act the way people like this ancient history and frank trollmen have been acting. Trying to do it under the guise of the little guy fighting back against the cruel machinations of THE MAN is just poreing salt into their self inflicted wounds.

And this ignores the equally suicidal move to not only do those things but also attempt to burn down a company and allegedly take part in some over the top scheme to steal a commercial license from them by doing so. Especially when the heart of the matter, regardless of how you try to hide and obfuscate it, is that you are just upset about not getting paid.

Unfreakingbelievable.

I sincerely hope these people have other skills available with which to earn a living because I cant image any roleplaying company ever hiring them after behaving this way. Even if some company is foolish enuf to hire them again, I for one will seriously consider NOT buying a single product they work on for the very same reasons they reputably started the wole mess. Morale grounds.

[Abschalten]

You're going to open up every roleplaying game book you'll consider buying, look at the credits, and compare all the names there against a list you're going to carry around in your pocket? And do this every single time based on "moral grounds"? Riiiight.

[Nath]

I wasn't blaming Jason for that one. Hell, aside from that bit of shitty intro fiction I pointed out earlier, Jason has almost nothing to do with Vice.

You probably meant "aside from that bit of intro fiction that doesn't suit my personal taste" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[sirdoom]

Blablabla

Such an interesting interpretation so full of nonsense. Sure, breaking the Samurai-to-death corporate codex in this multi-billion Dollar industry, where professionalism and confidentiality is everything, will definately bring those traitors to the guillotine... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[knasser]

It could also be due to creative differences, which are also self-interest.

If something were being written that I thought was damaging to the game, e.g. a writer unfamiliar with the setting or who simply had stupid ideas (e.g. our classic Unicorn Division) and I opposed that, this would be a creative difference I suppose, but it wouldn't be self-interest, it would be the interest of the game and the community around it that I had at heart. Unless you're going to argue that caring about other things is gratifying to oneself and therefore is ultimately self-interest, in which case the term "self-interest" is meaningless because you are defining everything as such.

Ancient History doesn't only "talk bad" about Coleman, but seems to have become bitter over his disagreement with Jason M. Hardy. Ever since his break up with CGL, AH let not possibility pass to speak bad of the current books, the Line Developer and the freelancers working for CGL. That's highly annoying.

What matters is whether or not it is true. There seems to be a number of people here who regard openly criticising and objecting to someone's behaviour as a wrong thing to do, regardless of whether or not that behaviour should be criticized and objected to.

Also, do you think it is appropriate to mingle your mod duties with taking sides in this discussion?

[otakusensei]

You probably meant "aside from that bit of intro fiction that doesn't suit my personal taste" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It wasn't very good mechanically if it comes to that. Too much exposition of broad basic items of interest to people who we're supposed to believe do these things for a living. They don't sound believable. Granted they are just meeting for the first time, at least two of them, but the dialog is too mechanical. Jason may have been going for that rapid fire noir style of discourse, but it doesn't hit that mark either. Instead of a shadowy group of influential officials with an agenda to take down my characters, the group sounds like a boring cabal of powerless nuisances who need to open their meeting by explaining their collective job in the broadest terms possible. Like they have no idea what they are doing. They come across like they barely understand the mechanics of what we are told it is their job to do as they explain they're job to us. At least, I think that's what Jason means by "People to hold meetings to talk about the people who did actual work."

An interrogation scene with a runner brought in on a simple wrap like ID fraud and then charged with all sorts of crimes to frame them and make the department look good would have been much better and spoken more to the section. It would have also avoided the bit of framing exposition the piece opened with (and the canon error in it) while bringing the focus back down to a street level were it becomes relevant. If we're getting a bit of fiction that high up the food chain I want a megacorp CEO, dragon or immortal elf in it, not some middle managers.

Jason's stuff has been strange for me to read now that I'm looking for it. Most of it is good mechanically, this example not withstanding. But I'm not familiar with the world his characters live in, even though I recognize the logos and street signs.

[knasser]

What do you think the possibility is of CGL or another publisher replacing the fiction with Exalted-style (in function not in art) comics at the start of each chapter? A picture is worth a 1000 words after all...

I don't know anything about Exalted, but I certainly don't want comics appearing in my Shadowrun books. I'd be hugely against this.

K.

[Catadmin]

Also, do you think it is appropriate to mingle your mod duties with taking sides in this discussion?

I only see this to be a problem if he was abusing his modliness to uphold his POV. Since I've seen no sign of that, I have no problem with him expressing his opinion on the matter.

Not that my opinion matters in the slightest since I am neither mod nor long-time poster here. @=)

[Demonseed Elite]

If something were being written that I thought was damaging to the game, e.g. a writer unfamiliar with the setting or who simply had stupid ideas (e.g. our classic Unicorn Division) and I opposed that, this would be a creative difference I suppose, but it wouldn't be self-interest, it would be the interest of the game and the community around it that I had at heart. Unless you're going to argue that caring about other things is gratifying to oneself and therefore is ultimately self-interest, in which case the term "self-interest" is meaningless because you are defining everything as such.

I still think it's self-interest because creative differences are very subjective. I've tangled with writers and developers who I thought were working on a "dumb idea", but they didn't feel that way. Their vision of the game was different than mine.

[knasser]

I only see this to be a problem if he was abusing his modliness to uphold his POV. Since I've seen no sign of that, I have no problem with him expressing his opinion on the matter.

Not that my opinion matters in the slightest since I am neither mod nor long-time poster here. @=)

Taking a side in this argument, means it would be very wise to give up any position as moderator over it.

Naturally, IMO. But something to consider seriously if you take your position seriously.

K.

[knasser]

I still think it's self-interest because creative differences are very subjective. I've tangled with writers and developers who I thought were working on a "dumb idea", but they didn't feel that way. Their vision of the game was different than mine.

Self-interest is about who benefits. If I care about the Shadowrun game (which I do) and I were a writer trying to persuade a Line Developer not to add, I don't know, flying Unicorns to the setting and making the setting stupid, then I don't think it's appropriate to call that "self-interest". It's not what people mean by the term.

K.

[Fuchs]

It took me some time to muscle through this mess and all I can say is wow.

I work in an industry that revolves around outsourced help. 'Freelancers' if you will. After reading thru this mess, I don't understand how people like ancient history or frank trollmen expect to ever find work again after the way they've behaved. No, after the way they are behaving even months after the fact.

It is admirable to quit a job on allegedly moral grounds, though that seems to be more of a catalyst in this situation than an honest to god reason. It is impressive to defend your fellows who did the same thing. It is questionable to air the dirty laundry in such a public manner when legal options were available. It is however outright unprofessional to 'blow the whistle' on a company. It is completely cowardly to do it through a third party. And it is career suicide to do all of these things while constantly and consistently badmouthing fellow writers, tenaciously attack anyone who questions their motives, try to burn down fan sites despite them tolerating this inexcusable behavior, accuse people who either don't buy it or frown upon the way you go about things as 'loving' or 'defending' the 'enemy,' and otherwise act the way people like this ancient history and frank trollmen have been acting. Trying to do it under the guise of the little guy fighting back against the cruel machinations of THE MAN is just poreing salt into their self inflicted wounds.

And this ignores the equally suicidal move to not only do those things but also attempt to burn down a company and allegedly take part in some over the top scheme to steal a commercial license from them by doing so. Especially when the heart of the matter, regardless of how you try to hide and obfuscate it, is that you are just upset about not getting paid.

Unfreakingbelievable.

I sincerely hope these people have other skills available with which to earn a living because I cant image any roleplaying company ever hiring them after behaving this way. Even if some company is foolish enuf to hire them again, I for one will seriously consider NOT buying a single product they work on for the very same reasons they reputably started the wole mess. Morale grounds.

I'd take you more seriously (though not a lot) if you did not, among your ranting, consider competing for a license as "scheming to steal". That's not really professional.

It does fit in the "oh, those evil, evil freelancers, wanting to get paid, and even denouncing our non-paying business practise openly, instead of letting themselves be exploited as they should" song you're playing.

[Cheops]

Wow. 150 for a full page illustration whereas it sounds like CGL/other would pay about $10-20 for a 500 word story. Okay, yeah never happening.

As far as whistle-blowing goes I don't see how that can be a detriment to someone. I work in the financial industry and we sure could use more whistleblowers. Chances are if someone rejects you as a hire because you are a whistleblower then you probably don't want to work for them based on ethics anyway. Implies they have something to hide.

[Dacoit]

It does fit in the "oh, those evil, evil freelancers, wanting to get paid, and even denouncing our non-paying business practise openly, instead of letting themselves be exploited as they should" song you're playing.

Hey all... long time lurker, first time poster!

So, I'm a BattleTech freelancer. Thought you all might like another point of view. I won't speak for my peers, but I'm getting a hoot out of watching several of you call me names and claim that I'm supporting an evil empire by not running for the door months ago. I wish it were that simple...

Here's the deal: I have the greatest respect for the SR freelancers who pulled their copyrights because of ethical issues, such as not getting paid. They were entirely within their rights and I don't have a bad thing to say about them. It's just not something I can do, because I need every penny I'm owed. Which is why I've continued to write for Catalyst, in the interim--because that offers me the best chance of recovering the monies owed me.

Your response might be: "But you're being stupid--they're never going to pay you." And you might be right, as neither you nor I has any factual idea what's going on behind closed doors at IMR. But the options are 1.) withdraw copyrights, thereby denying CGL a plausible income stream, 2.) terminate contracts, thereby both denying CGL a plausible income stream AND writing off any owed monies I have, or 3.) keep writing in the hopes that giving CGL every opportunity to sell product might get me paid. Someday. Whatever your beliefs about what's going on at IMR, if you're a freelancer with BT/SR contracts, it boils down to those three options. There aren't any others.

Options 1 and 2 are--for certain--ruinous to me financially. Option 3 might be ruinous to me financially, but it also might get me paid. Since writing off the monies owed is not an option, Option 3 is my only choice.

Am I pleased that I've not been paid on time? Of course not. Am I pleased that the reason I've not been paid on time is shoddy bookkeeping on part of the leadership of the company? Of course not. Am I pleased that I'm continuing to write, despite having a fair chance of not ever seeing a dime? Of course not. There is nothing pleasing about the situation. Not. One. Thing.

If I had the financial security to stand by my morals and walk away, I would have done so months ago. Since I do not, the only option available to me is to do everything in my power to see that IMR brings in funds sufficient to pay my outstanding contracts. I'm not motivated by love of the game or loyalty to a specific person. I'm motivated by my bills. I can't tell the electric company I won't be paying my June electric bill because I terminated my contracts over moral issues.

I have three options, and two of those options are guaranteed to not get me paid. Even if the odds are 1 in 100 (and I just made that number up, don't try to read anything into it) I'm going with the chance for money.

Regards...

ps.--someone will point out the fourth option: simply not take any more contracts until I'm paid up. Which is a fair option, but doesn't get me paid any faster. I'm an active person--I'd rather increase the likelihood of getting paid, and thereby increase the amount I'll eventually get paid, than sit and watch my bills go unpaid while I'm waiting. At least the writing distracts me from the collections agencies...

[Ancient History]

It's been said before...the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I don't know the details of your situation, Dacoit, and I do hope you get paid, but bitter experience tells me that sometimes it takes more than waiting quietly, or even waiting and bitching vehemently, to get paid. Because while it makes all kinds of sense to pay out the few hundred or few thousand dollars they owe you, Catalyst does not have a good track record of doing so. Freelancer payments have been ignored, delayed, and pushed to the side for "more immediate concerns" more times than I can recall. It's not right, but sitting there writing isn't going to get you paid any sooner, especially once someone else has withheld copyrights. Those people are the ones that get paid first, because their actions have made it a priority to get paid first. If CGL had kept on top of things, that wouldn't be the case, but that's how it is.

[Tiger Eyes]

Am I pleased that the reason I've not been paid on time is shoddy bookkeeping on part of the leadership of the company?

Shoddy Bookkeeping is forgetting to record a debit card transaction. I wouldn't call walking into the bank, withdrawing $30,000 in cash to pay a home-builder contractor, while freelancers, printers, loans, and taxes go unpaid... shoddy bookkeeping. Especially not when it happens repeated. Over several years. By one person.

If you are okay with accepting that you haven't been paid, at least accept the reason for it.

Note that option one does have the result of getting paid. Ignoring freelancers, for the moment - printers and contractors (not authors/artists) have also used the same method with CGL and gotten paid. Just saying...

[Jaid]

Taking a side in this argument, means it would be very wise to give up any position as moderator over it.

Naturally, IMO. But something to consider seriously if you take your position seriously.

K.

so, because he's a moderator, he should be expected to become a robot without an opinion and no right to speak his mind? unless it's interfering with his responsibilities as a moderator, i really can't see a problem. you don't seem to have any problem with the moderators having an opinion in other threads, why should they be obligated to shut up in this one?

Hey all... long time lurker, first time poster!

So, I'm a BattleTech freelancer. Thought you all might like another point of view. I won't speak for my peers, but I'm getting a hoot out of watching several of you call me names and claim that I'm supporting an evil empire by not running for the door months ago. I wish it were that simple...

Here's the deal: I have the greatest respect for the SR freelancers who pulled their copyrights because of ethical issues, such as not getting paid. They were entirely within their rights and I don't have a bad thing to say about them. It's just not something I can do, because I need every penny I'm owed. Which is why I've continued to write for Catalyst, in the interim--because that offers me the best chance of recovering the monies owed me.

Your response might be: "But you're being stupid--they're never going to pay you." And you might be right, as neither you nor I has any factual idea what's going on behind closed doors at IMR. But the options are 1.) withdraw copyrights, thereby denying CGL a plausible income stream, 2.) terminate contracts, thereby both denying CGL a plausible income stream AND writing off any owed monies I have, or 3.) keep writing in the hopes that giving CGL every opportunity to sell product might get me paid. Someday. Whatever your beliefs about what's going on at IMR, if you're a freelancer with BT/SR contracts, it boils down to those three options. There aren't any others.

Options 1 and 2 are--for certain--ruinous to me financially. Option 3 might be ruinous to me financially, but it also might get me paid. Since writing off the monies owed is not an option, Option 3 is my only choice.

Am I pleased that I've not been paid on time? Of course not. Am I pleased that the reason I've not been paid on time is shoddy bookkeeping on part of the leadership of the company? Of course not. Am I pleased that I'm continuing to write, despite having a fair chance of not ever seeing a dime? Of course not. There is nothing pleasing about the situation. Not. One. Thing.

If I had the financial security to stand by my morals and walk away, I would have done so months ago. Since I do not, the only option available to me is to do everything in my power to see that IMR brings in funds sufficient to pay my outstanding contracts. I'm not motivated by love of the game or loyalty to a specific person. I'm motivated by my bills. I can't tell the electric company I won't be paying my June electric bill because I terminated my contracts over moral issues.

I have three options, and two of those options are guaranteed to not get me paid. Even if the odds are 1 in 100 (and I just made that number up, don't try to read anything into it) I'm going with the chance for money.

Regards...

ps.--someone will point out the fourth option: simply not take any more contracts until I'm paid up. Which is a fair option, but doesn't get me paid any faster. I'm an active person--I'd rather increase the likelihood of getting paid, and thereby increase the amount I'll eventually get paid, than sit and watch my bills go unpaid while I'm waiting. At least the writing distracts me from the collections agencies...

and this just goes to what i've pointed out several times before. there are many aspects to justice, and while i might agree that justice would involve the guilty being punished, my concept of justice sure as hang doesn't involve the innocent being harmed by the consequences of the actions of the guilty.

if keeping loren l coleman around increases the odds of the other owners getting their money back, and the freelancers getting paid, then so be it. if it doesn't work out, you can always sue/press charges against loren l coleman later, but it's not so easy to set things right by going after the person through the legal system. consider the palladium books situation, where kevin accepted a tiny fraction of the stolen money as a settlement, because he realised that revenge wasn't going to improve the situation any, and he wasn't going to get the money back by suing.

i just think it's silly to say "the moral thing to do is to tear apart the company in a legal battle to get vengeance on loren l coleman", when quite frankly loren l coleman is not the only person who would be hurt by that action. truth be told, taking that course would likely harm the very same people that loren l coleman harmed in essentially the same way that loren l coleman harmed those people.

so randall bills is left with a pretty crappy situation... he can take what some are claiming is the only moral action, and destroy the company (thereby making sure the other members of the LLC, and the freelancers, and the employees, and pretty much everyone involved other than the lawyers be left with the consequences of loren l coleman's actions), or he can do his best to keep the company afloat, which includes keeping loren l coleman at least somewhat involved in the company. neither one is particularly a great option, but to claim that he (or any of the other people who have been accused of supporting loren's actions) is a horrible human being for not seeking immediate vengeance on loren is to blind yourself to the whole situation.