CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[knasser]

I am sorry, though, Knasser, that you think Battletech does not count.

Everytime I make a post, you then take it as a starting point to pretend I've said something I didn't. I've never played BattleTech and know very little about it, but I don't wish it any ill. But Shadowrun players or freelancers are not responsible for BattleTech being at risk. If it is at risk - I don't know anything about it - presumably it is just in the same situation as Shadowrun in that it would need the licence to be sold on to another party. If it's a profitable line then that could happen the same as with Shadowrun.

K.

[Cardul]

Everytime I make a post, you then take it as a starting point to pretend I've said something I didn't. I've never played BattleTech and know very little about it, but I don't wish it any ill. But Shadowrun players or freelancers are not responsible for BattleTech being at risk. If it is at risk - I don't know anything about it - presumably it is just in the same situation as Shadowrun in that it would need the licence to be sold on to another party. If it's a profitable line then that could happen the same as with Shadowrun.

K.

Considering that the licences for SR and BT are bound together, and your comment about "Line Developer(singular)" when I was referring to both Jason and the Herb Beas(and his Asst. Line Developer, Ben Rome) commenting on projects they are working on(including stuff planned for next year!), it made it rather clear to me that you thought anyone other then Jason did not count as a Line Developer. If the Shadowrun license gets pulled, the Battletech License also goes. Thus, I pay attention equally to what is going on with Battletech, since what is going on with them and what is going on with Shadowrun will tell us the liklihood of CGL keeping the license. Also, remember: Topps never really valued the SR License(look at how they made a game worse then Mechwarrior for the Shadowrun game, and then killed it quietly, after not really even promoting it).

[Stahlseele]

Ahem?
The Ego-shooter Shadowrun was done by Microsoft, not by Topps, right?

[Adam]

Also, remember: Topps never really valued the SR License(look at how they made a game worse then Mechwarrior for the Shadowrun game, and then killed it quietly, after not really even promoting it).

Topps/WizKids had roughly diddly-fuck-nothing to do with the SR PC/XBox game.

[BTFreeLancer]

Ahem?
The Ego-shooter Shadowrun was done by Microsoft, not by Topps, right?

there was Shadowrun Clix line that did not very well (though whether that was to do with WizKids not valuing it, or just endemic of the troubles that were pulling the company apart)

[Furluge]

Ahem?
The Ego-shooter Shadowrun was done by Microsoft, not by Topps, right?

I think they mean Shadowrun Duels. Remember the name of Wizkid's collectable mini-game was called Mechwarrior in an attempt to cash in on the familiarity of the name garned from the computer game series.

[Adam]

Sounds to me like a "sign of good faith" situation. Maybe somebody with a working knowledge of RPG distribution (Adam, Synner, Jason, ??) can explain the significance of this development?

PSI warehouses books, sells them to retailers and other distributors and into the book chain, invoices those companies, collects money, and passes along the money to their publishers after taking a portion of it.

I can't speak to how Catalyst's previous situation with Alliance worked.

[Adam]

I think they mean Shadowrun Duels. Remember the name of Wizkid's collectable mini-game was called Mechwarrior in an attempt to cash in on the familiarity of the name garned from the computer game series.

Duels was in production before Topps bought WizKids, and the people working on it included Mike Mulvihill, the last SR developer at FASA. WizKids was doing a lot of "different" things that year using former FASA IPs to try and expand their market.

[Stahlseele]

I actually have 2 of the Shadowrun Hero-Clix Figurines . .
Also, the Mechwarrior: Dark Age thing did not really fly with the Battletech Crowd either . .
I guess both the SR and the BT Crowd are kinda conservative about our hobbies ^^

[Furluge]

I actually have 2 of the Shadowrun Hero-Clix Figurines . .
Also, the Mechwarrior: Dark Age thing did not really fly with the Battletech Crowd either . .
I guess both the SR and the BT Crowd are kinda conservative about our hobbies ^^

You mean the name "Clickymech" and "Pokemech" weren't a tip-off? Actually I don't have any problems with MWDA except, um, let's see... they hurriedly wrapped up the storylines that had been going for about 15 years at that point so they could write a completely new almost unrecognizable storyline where all the recognizable players were absent, replaced by new factions with only obscure connections to previous factions (And those factions eventually got scrubbed in favor of traditional ones), it was a collectible miniatures game, and the rules were basically mage-knight with only a brief nod to Btech in the way of heat.

So I guess the only thing I was fine with was the fact that clicky base health could abstract the Btech system of shit being blown off and make the game faster.. and.. that was it.

I guess I had lots of problems with it.

Oh yeah, they promised everying MWDA would get stats in Classic Battletech. That didn't happen. There was only one lame attempt at conversion, which is completely invalid now.

Anyway, for the record, I play both Battletech and Shadowrun, but Battletech was my first game to get me into the hobby, ever. So needless to say, I've got a pretty vested interest in seeing it stick around. Also, the game's a bit of a unique animal as far as games go. There aren't a whole lot of games like out there.

[Stahlseele]

Well, if they ever do give everything in Clicky Tech CBT Stats, then at least i get some shiney new miniatures . .

[Big Freaky Sean]

I can't speak to how Catalyst's previous situation with Alliance worked.

This is my take on it from my past as a retailer who did inquire about setting up a publishing account a few years ago. Typically a distributor like Alliance buys product from publishers and then offers it for sale to retailers at a 10% mark up. Alliance doesn't push sales of product except through pre-orders. A lot of distributors seem to want to pay for the product 30 to 60 days after it is delivered, but I imagine that a bigger publisher with a very hot product could force the issue and get payed upon delivery.

Companies like PSI handle a lot of the logistics that come with publishing such as advertising and warehousing. That is a major boon to small press publishers. The fact they also does sales does intrigue me. Though they fact that they advertise that they have 75+ years of experience also turns me off. I hate it when companies pool experience like that.

Is this a good sign for CGL retaining the license? I have no idea. In many ways it would cut overhead since they would not have to deal with storing printed materiel. It also has the advantage of a one stop solution for storage, distribution and advertising. In that respect it is a good sign.

[Cardul]

Duels was in production before Topps bought WizKids, and the people working on it included Mike Mulvihill, the last SR developer at FASA. WizKids was doing a lot of "different" things that year using former FASA IPs to try and expand their market.

Ah...see..I found the figures at my FLGS after Topps bought WK. I figured they had just been released..
And, you know, honestly: while the game had some interesting concepts, it was not that good. Maybe if they
had done something more like Heroclix...

[General Pax]

I don't believe every freelancer has had the purest of intentions here but blaming the lot of them, even just the most vocal ones, for any sort of dishonesty or unprofessionalism feels a little like you've totally glossed over what the opposition is responsible for doing. Lets be honest: There has been a whole lot of unprofessional and dishonest going on on both sides of the fence here.

I didnt mean to make it sound like I was blaming everyone. I made mention of the two most outstanding ones namely ancient history and frank trolmen. Their behavior has been embarrising and shameful and how either of them can expect another company to take them seriously is beyond me. Theyve proven that they are untrustworthy, have no problem releasing confidential material, do whatever they can to bring down a company they are angry about, and publically mock and cajole everyone assocaited with their former employers. If anyone in the world deserves to be blacklisted its people like that regardless of the industry, regardless of the income of that industry, and regardless of how small a pool of employers is. The latter of which is kind of a joke as theres hordes of roleplaying fans out there whod love to get a chance to freelance just for the fun of it alone.

Allegedly, and competing for a contract isn't stealing it. Is bringing all of this mess to light now that the contract is up for negotation a little shady? I'll give you that, but this is about way more than a few people not getting paid and if the license was not being properly managed... it deserves to be awarded to someone else.

This is again two different subjects. Competing for the license is fine. The way one goes about it, as made evident by the actions of such people, is not. It is disgraceful to them, the license, and the hobby as a whole.

I can't fault you that. I've made the decision not to support IMR/CGL due to this situation. You are certainly free to see it the other way.

True enough. I have just chosen to keep an open mind to the side that's at least trying to turn their act around and improve things, rather than the side thats done nothing and continue to do nothing but horrible, petty, small minded actions.

[Fuchs]

Nibelungentreue is not a good idea.

And I find it morally wrong to support a side "that is trying to turn around" after doing a lot of wrong things, yet condemning those who fault the wrongs done (to them even, in some cases).

[LurkerOutThere]

Again it comes down to what level of wrongs do you continue to excuse and what reparations can be made. As long as the freelancers get paid for their work and the company continues to make good products I have no offense and I won't get too hung up on claims that all the talent is gone! Because frankly every single team that's worked on SR has put out stuff that I liked and stuff I couldn't stand. Anything beyond that is frankly none of my concern, I have stuff closer to home to be concerned about..

[deek]

I'd have to agree with the idea of there being hordes of fans out there that would be willing to write freelance on an SR project. Now I am not saying that everything would be perfect day one, but sometimes a shakeup like this gets new blood and ideas on a project. Fans are going to latch on to what they like and reject what they don't and really, a good writer, whether s/he's got all the SR experience or not, is going to put out good content as long as they take the time to check their facts and setting.

[BlueMax]

I'd have to agree with the idea of there being hordes of fans out there that would be willing to write freelance on an SR project. Now I am not saying that everything would be perfect day one, but sometimes a shakeup like this gets new blood and ideas on a project. Fans are going to latch on to what they like and reject what they don't and really, a good writer, whether s/he's got all the SR experience or not, is going to put out good content as long as they take the time to check their facts and setting.

This is true for the fiction portion. The rules portion may be another matter. What sold me on SR1 was its unique rule system and the fact that the fiction was *mostly* bound by the same rules. Familiarity with Shadowrun rules is a requirement. Not to mention familiarity with the current fan gripes and their respective validity.

I don't care much for fiction thickening my rule books but I would pay happily for continued refinement of the core rules.

BlueMax

[knasser]

and your comment about "Line Developer(singular)" when I was referring to both Jason and the Herb Beas(and his Asst. Line Developer, Ben Rome) commenting on projects they are working on(including stuff planned for next year!), it made it rather clear to me that you thought anyone other then Jason did not count as a Line Developer.

Or if you were less keen to try and cast me as an uncaring BattleTech hater, it might mean I was talking about Shadowrun and when you made a comment about line developers plural I thought you might have meant freelancers, hence my follow up comment clarifying that I was replying on the basis that you meant freelancers. Which is more likely? That when someone says "there's only one line developer" they mean that they're talking about a single line, or that they think it's sane to appoint themselves as a higher authority about what someone's job is than what it says on their contract of employment. You, for some reason, chose to attack me on the grounds that you thought I imagined myself in charge of what people's job titles are.

It would have been more constructive, as well as friendlier, to actually just address the points I have made (which you skipped over entirely).

Can we drop this now, seeing as it entirely hinges on you putting a prejudicial spin on words which I have already clarified for you (twice)?

K.

[deek]

Familiarity with Shadowrun rules is a requirement. Not to mention familiarity with the current fan gripes and their respective validity.

I don't care much for fiction thickening my rule books but I would pay happily for continued refinement of the core rules.

BlueMax

Yeah, I agree on both points and I lumped that in with the writer doing their research. Obviously, having that knowledge garnered over time and experience is preferred, but I could see a newb with a lot of ambition being able to read past books and fan gripes and come up with some pretty solid content. I mean, we kind of go through this every time there's an edition change...key things stay the same and key things change, but as long as its moving forward, the line sells.

I'm in the same boat, I enjoy rules and refinement thereof. Granted, I am much more open to adopting solid rules in my games from unpublished sources. At my table, fun rules the day, so regardless of me bringing a pretty book or a bunch of photocopies of some open source game, if its fun and works, we are going to run with it.

[emouse]

Also, just something I'd thought of, it could be a sign to Topps of what they are doing to make sure there are less messes moving forward.

That's what I was thinking. If PSI is warehousing the stock, then Topps would probably be able to get a report from them saying exactly how many books have been sold. This could well be a way of injecting an accountability measure to reassure Topps.

[knasser]

I'd have to agree with the idea of there being hordes of fans out there that would be willing to write freelance on an SR project. Now I am not saying that everything would be perfect day one, but sometimes a shakeup like this gets new blood and ideas on a project. Fans are going to latch on to what they like and reject what they don't and really, a good writer, whether s/he's got all the SR experience or not, is going to put out good content as long as they take the time to check their facts and setting.

There are plenty of people out there who would be / are keen to write. Even as was said, for the fun of it. But Frank Trollman made a few good points about this before he was banned. First and foremost was that when people are writing in return for fun or praise, you get a lot of problems. Firstly, they feel much less obligation toward the publisher. In fact, because they feel they're contributing their time and imagination as a gift, they expect the obligation to flow the other way. Frank talked about this causing problems when it came to criticising people's work. I can also see it causing problems with commitment. Until you've actually worked on something like Running Wild or Vice or one of the core books, you're probably unprepared for just how much effort is involved. I can tell you from my fairly substantial fan-work that it can really be a slog to get things delivered, and my work is minor in comparison to a lot of the freelancer work. And we haven't even got to the point of the back and forth of editing and re-writing which, as a fan, I don't have to deal with. Basically, Frank's point was that whilst all these things can be overcome and there are exceptions amongst the "write for fun", fun and praise are fickle motivations. What happens when people (editors or fans) don't like your work or have different ideas of what you should do? What happens when it turns, even temporarily, from fun jaunt to hard slog? What happens when writers start arguing with each other and things get personal? What happens when a new game is released and their enthusiasm is fired up by something else? Find a different fan to write might be your answer, but that's not so easy mid-project. If you're not paying for work (and paying an amount that is fair) with all the implied commitment that brings, then you have a lot less means to drag work out of your writers in a timely fashion. Frank said that of two people with similar talent, he'd far rather have someone writing for money than writing for fun or praise. What you lose in wages, you more than gain in commitment and reliable motivations. Personally, I see where he's coming from and would say that you need someone who works for money, treating it as a proper job, whilst also loving what they're working on.

And even if you have fans writing your material and an endless supply of them, you still need a knowledgeable and energetic line developer who can co-ordinate, veto and chase, etc. And you need reliable people as editors. You'll find people keen to write up some new fiction. You'll find substantially fewer keen to develop, test and write up rules systems (but you'll find them). People like myself who actually would enjoy editing material, I can't imagine there are many of us invisible workers out there doing it for love of the game.

There is a wealth of talent out there and being someone who has several times banged on CGL's door in frustration trying to get them to look at what people are longing to give them for free (chiefly on the fiction side in my case), I well know it. But turning that energy into a co-ordinated and reliable production schedule cannot be easy. I have some idea of how much effort is required to produce some of this work. I'd welcome comments from, e.g. Patrick Goodman who I think wrote vast chunks of Running Wild (correct?). Maybe I'm wrong. But I think people like him, AH, Jennifer Harding, the Adam AI, Peter Taylor... they don't grow on trees and the level of commitment you get from people like this (apologies to those missed) is a whole level above what you'd get from most fans. And you need a core of people with that level of commitment.

It's a shame CGL lost the whole lot of them.

K.

[deek]

... they don't grow on trees and the level of commitment you get from people like this (apologies to those missed) is a whole level above what you'd get from most fans. And you need a core of people with that level of commitment.

No argument there.

[Catadmin]

Knasser brings up a lot of good points. The one I'd primarily like to point out is:

When people are writing in return for fun or praise, you get a lot of problems. ... In fact, because they feel they're contributing their time and imagination as a gift, they expect the obligation to flow the other way. Frank talked about this causing problems when it came to criticising people's work.

I know quite a few people IRL who are like this. In fact one of these people contributed a piece to some older (now defunct) RPGs, then got all twisted out of shape when they weren't treated like gods for doing one book.

And then there's the critiquing / editing bit. You *must* have a thick skin when it comes to this sort of stuff. As has been mentioned earlier in these threads, different writers have different styles. This translates to liking different things when they read as well. In earlier threads, Bobby himself mentioned that he could tell who edited what in his stuff because of certain predictable patterns that *all* writers have. And we blind ourselves to these patterns simply through repetition of use. It takes other people to jostle us out of our complacency and tell us that something needs re-worked. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But you'd be amazed at the number of writers who are sold on the belief that "my baby is perfect and even changing an to and will kill it."

People who write for fun, and not money, can afford to ignore criticisms and edits. But they'll also find themselves on other people's Do Not Call list if they can't play well with a shared world or a team work. People who write for money, especially those writing in licensed properties, learn to make the compromises necessary or they end up with no work at all. And when you have bills to pay, that's not a fun place to be.

This last statement has nothing to do with the current IMR/CGL issue, BTW. It's a general statement of fact for media tie-in work.

[BlueMax]

Yeah, I agree on both points and I lumped that in with the writer doing their research. Obviously, having that knowledge garnered over time and experience is preferred, but I could see a newb with a lot of ambition being able to read past books and fan gripes and come up with some pretty solid content. I mean, we kind of go through this every time there's an edition change...key things stay the same and key things change, but as long as its moving forward, the line sells.

I'm in the same boat, I enjoy rules and refinement thereof. Granted, I am much more open to adopting solid rules in my games from unpublished sources. At my table, fun rules the day, so regardless of me bringing a pretty book or a bunch of photocopies of some open source game, if its fun and works, we are going to run with it.

I speculate that no matter who has the license in the future, the audience will only get smaller unless Missions or something akin to Missions is well supported. That is to say, there are new adventures to run at Memorial Day Cons for example. And for Missions to take off, the game must run smoothly with the base ruleset.

I also speculate that if CGL is not the licensee, Missions support would take a hit. Simply from the cost in changing administrations.

BlueMax



BlueMax