CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[General Pax]

Yes there are a lot of people like that. There are also a lot of people not like that. The point is that there is no infinately tiny pool of freelancers available. The game had great content before any ofthe current batch showed up. Heck if you ask me the game has lost a lot of its SOUL because of the current batch of writers. Its been slowly dying since 2e. The rules certinly arent masterful or above reproch. Just look at any of the threads here that discuss the meat of the game and youll see that mentioned time and again.

I really dont see how you can argue that the current game is above reproach and everyone who left and burnt all their bridges, which as far as I can tell is only a very vocal few. And even the ones getting all this praise have admitted and been called out on how bad some of their work has been in even this incarrnation of the topic as well as others.

New blood tempered with old is a good thing as far as Im concirned. And despite the wailing of those vocal few it seems to me that cgl is trying like heck to get their act together. Is it sad that things got so bad that the situation came to such a hold??? Yes but that doesnt mean they cant learn from those mistakes. No matter what those not in the know repeat ad nausium in the hopes of making it fact........ so that their side schemes and petty hearted actions can come to fruition.

[knasser]

Yes there are a lot of people like that. There are also a lot of people not like that. The point is that there is no infinately tiny pool of freelancers available. The game had great content before any ofthe current batch showed up. Heck if you ask me the game has lost a lot of its SOUL because of the current batch of writers. Its been slowly dying since 2e. The rules certinly arent masterful or above reproch. Just look at any of the threads here that discuss the meat of the game and youll see that mentioned time and again.

I really dont see how you can argue that the current game is above reproach and everyone who left and burnt all their bridges, which as far as I can tell is only a very vocal few. And even the ones getting all this praise have admitted and been called out on how bad some of their work has been in even this incarrnation of the topic as well as others.

New blood tempered with old is a good thing as far as Im concirned. And despite the wailing of those vocal few it seems to me that cgl is trying like heck to get their act together. Is it sad that things got so bad that the situation came to such a hold??? Yes but that doesnt mean they cant learn from those mistakes. No matter what those not in the know repeat ad nausium in the hopes of making it fact........ so that their side schemes and petty hearted actions can come to fruition.

There's some very loaded language in there that doesn't really stand up. First you say that the people who left are only a "very vocal few" and then go on to talk about the "wailing of those vocal few" for example. The "few" people CGL has lost are people like Adam Jury, who has been the very model of professionalism, Peter Taylor, whose presence on these threads is conspicuous by its absence, Jennifer Harding who was extremely discreet until repeated accusations and misinformation provoked her into making a few clarifying posts. Bobby Derie who, given how he's been treated, could have legitimately exploded like a rocket on these threads but has kept it together, his worst crime being publically critical of an unpublished draft which he later apologised for. And there are others, discrete, but who nontheless have said they either wont work with CGL again, or wont work with it whilst Loren Coleman is there. It's pretty low to start casting their behaviour as wailing. Wailing is a word you use to belittle people's concerns. When a company doesn't pay you what it owes you for your work for over a year, when you're kicked out from your community for standing up for yourself, when you see a game you love put at risk by someone running off with all the cash and people with serious gaps in their knowledge taking over development, I don't think you should dismiss any objection as "wailing" in such an off-hand way.

You don't like 4th and think it lost a lot of its soul. But the RPG market is a fraction of what it was when Shadowrun was released and for 4th to have done so very well (shown by sales figures and house purchases) shows that a lot of people disagree with you. If you're going to talk about "petty hearted" (your words), then I think an attitude of "good riddance, your work didn't suit my personal tastes" is closer than people being upset at the game they've invested so much into being threatened.

You say: "No matter what those not in the know repeat ad nausium in the hopes of making it fact........ so that their side schemes and petty hearted actions can come to fruition." Which I take to mean you think all this "wailing" is a plot to try and undermine CGL and seize the licence. I think Dumpshock should be flattered that you think this thread will influence Topps' decisions or court cases about bankrupcy or soothe printers that weren't paid. Anyone can bid for the licence. Deriding anyone who does so as "petty hearted" shows a perculiar bias toward the existing holders. You should take a look at the names of "those few" and check out the credits of any 4th edition book (and some 3rd). You'll find that the people recently jettisoned from CGL are the people that pretty much made 4th edition. Quite honestly, I don't see why you'd credit CGL for Shadowrun higher than the people actually writing it.

K.

[Cheops]

Yes there are a lot of people like that. There are also a lot of people not like that. The point is that there is no infinately tiny pool of freelancers available. The game had great content before any ofthe current batch showed up. Heck if you ask me the game has lost a lot of its SOUL because of the current batch of writers. Its been slowly dying since 2e. The rules certinly arent masterful or above reproch. Just look at any of the threads here that discuss the meat of the game and youll see that mentioned time and again.

Wow. As a fervent SR4 hater myself I have to say I absolutely despise the latest edition. That being said, I think that the writing, fiction, and fluff has been VASTLY superior to any edition that came before this. The funny thing is that the writing is good in spite of the rules. The rules create a version of SR that I hate but the writing has not panned that out. The writing shows what the RAI was supposed to be, and it shows a world that is still very much one that interests me. My hope is that one day SR will grow up and finally decide what sort of game it wants to be -- gamist, narrative, or simulationist, or hopefully some awesome combination of all three -- but right now we are saddled with rules that are no better or worse than older editions (just different flavor). But the world and style is still very much the same as older editions.

As much as I'd prefer a better ruleset I'm perfectly happy with continued, high-quality content like we have been seeing. Whether CGL can do that with a new batch remains to be seen. From respected opinions I have heard here and elsewhere that does NOT appear to be the case. Add to that the fact that IMR is not a going concern right now and will need to pump out products ASAP means we can likely expect quality to take a nose-dive. On the whole, the future of SR seems safer in another company's hands. That may not be the case for BT (which LLC and RB seem to love).

[otakusensei]

Damnit, Knasser, why you always gotta go speaking so good?

[Demonseed Elite]

I agree wholeheartedly with knasser and Catadmin. You would be surprised how small the freelancer pool is. Yes, there are lots of fans out there who would love to write for Shadowrun. But there are remarkably few who are consistently good writers, open to criticism, reliable on deadlines, have a solid grasp and depth of Shadowrun history and mechanics, and are in it for the long-haul. I know it's easy to look at a forum like Dumpshock and think there should be plenty of Shadowrun freelancers, but I'm here to tell you that in the time I wrote for Shadowrun, it really wasn't that large of a group. I wish it had been larger and I know Peter did too while he was the line developer and we spent a lot of time talking about how we could grow the freelancer pool. New blood is good, I totally agree. Hell, most of the people everyone is talking about here, like Jennifer and Bobby, were new blood from my perspective! And very good additions, in my opinion. But a mix of experienced veterans and enthusiastic new blood is really important. Also, never underestimate how much these writers are a team. Shadowrun is a collaborative writing environment, it's not like writing a novel.

[MindandPen]

And then there's the critiquing / editing bit. You *must* have a thick skin when it comes to this sort of stuff.

When I used to write proposals, we had a quote we left up on the wall of our proposal work rooms.

There's no crying in baseball.

If you can not stand criticism, don't write professionally. Personally, if I didn't see red ink on something I wrote, it meant the person didn't read it, because NOTHING is ever perfect on the first draft.

-M&P

[Ancient History]

I've got a separate topic for this, but there are some things I wanted to address here.

Shadowrun, like most RPGs, is a sharecropper universe - and like sharecroppers, the freelancers don't actually own any of the material they create after they've been paid for it. It becomes a part of the property, and other writers are free to do with it or ignore it as they will. This is a tricky situation for ex-freelancers, like myself, who decide to withdraw their drafts - the material in these drafts may be original, but there is also derivative material, stuff taken from the hundred sourcebooks and dozens of novels that have come before. You can't sell it as that. The only thing you can do is change it so it's no longer derivative - removing names, dates, trademarks, that sort of thing - or you can give it away. I decided when I left that if there ever got to be a point where I couldn't sell it, I would much rather give it away.

Originally I was going to wait until the actual books were released, but recent events have tipped my hand. Specifically, I became aware that several of the drafts created to replace mine might actually contain material derivative from my original drafts. Now, this is a pretty damn awkward situation for me - after all, my drafts are by definition derivative, and a lot of my material comes from research into publicly available sources - but a couple of the drafts were leaked to me, and without putting too fine a point on it there were terrible coincidences. Putting my original draft side-by-side with the new ones, it looked in some cases like the new author had used my draft as an outline. In others, entire sections appeared to have been copied wholesale. One of the authors confirmed to me privately that their instructions for creating their drafts contained explicit instructions based on novel elements from my original drafts.

I addressed the situation to CGL in an e-mail to Jason Hardy, Randall Bills, and Topps, followed up by hardcopy letters:

Jason Hardy,

It's come to my attention that several of the drafts contracted to replace mine in Corporate Guide, Runner's Toolkit, and The Sixth World Almanac may make improper use of my work - derivative material from my original drafts which had not already been published elsewhere in Shadowrun. I would like to see the drafts before publication to prove that the new draft has not used the writing, concepts, or material I provided, then withdrew, in any way or manner. I believe most of the drafts are already in, so I would like to see them no later than Friday, June 4th - hopefully this will not interfere with your editing schedule.

I am cc'ing this message to Randall Bills at Catalyst Game Labs and to Ira Friedman, VP of Licensing at Topps. I will be following this email with hardcopy letters to both Catalyst and Topps sent through the mail. I would appreciate if you would confirm receipt of this email.

Sincerely,
Bobby Derie

I asked for a chance to review the drafts and make sure there wasn't some mistake, or at least give a chance for things to be caught before they were published. Receipt of my e-mail was confirmed. The deadline I'd suggested was approaching and I sent a polite reminder:

Jason, Randall,

This is just a brief reminder, in my May 26th email I asked to see the drafts by no later than this coming Friday, June 4th. I just want to be sure that the new drafts don't contain any of the original material from my first drafts - as you may recall, my drafts have been posted to the freelancer forums for some months now and could have been downloaded and read by any of the freelancers and developers. I know you are on a tight editing schedule, so you have my assurance I will get back to you on the contents of the drafts by the next day.

Sincerely,

Bobby Derie

Randall replied:

Hello Bobby,

Thank you for your email and concern. We do not allow outside parties to review works in progress.

We've thoroughly reviewed this situation and are confident that the re-written pieces are in no way based upon your submitted material.

As such, we consider this matter closed.

Randall Bills
Managing Developer
Catalyst Game Labs

So, as far as I know nothing was actually done about it. I don't like that. I give my time and effort fairly freely, as I think most of the freelancers (current and former) here will admit, and I don't mind seeing my work go uncredited. But I don't like to see it get stolen, or misused, even by accident. Maybe I'm a little gonzo at this point and overreacting; certainly I can understand Randall's position. I hope he can see mine. Because at this point, anyone that cares to will be able to compare my drafts and those others when they are released, and decide for themselves.

I don't want this to stop anyone from buying those books, if and when they are released. They will be canon, these won't be. They will be laid out properly, with art and better proofing and editing than I could manage on my own. The content will be different. There will be a new PACKS, or so I'm told, and it will be different. Maybe better. I don't vouchsafe that any of my stuff is perfect or even preferable. But it is free, to everybody.

[phillosopherp]

If you can not stand criticism, don't write professionally. Personally, if I didn't see red ink on something I wrote, it meant the person didn't read it, because NOTHING is ever perfect on the first draft.

-M&P

QFT!

Now I think that the most important thing to impress upon anyone writing for any long term RPG is having to know the "history" of the world. If you don't you might get some new people that have heard of the IP saying maybe I should give it a try, but you will lose all the hardcores that have been there since the beginning. So the most important part of bringing on new guys is giving them all the main books and story books of the past and saying "read this you will be tested later" then letting them write. Or at the very least give them Bobby's site and say read all of it and we will test you later. The world of SR has had a few bad story arc's (any long term story will its the nature of the beast) but if you don't know all the arcs you will either repeat, or create non-continuity, both of which are a death trap to fanboys/girls. The most important thing is to get people who would stay true to the line, if we can't get those that we know are good back that is.


I have a horse in the race cause I would rather see the likes of Bobby and Jen and all the others back, but I also have a love of SR and if it does stay where it is then I will hope for the above to happen, as soon as it doesn't I'm done till its back, period.

[Synner667]

I think you're in for ebooks. Lots of ebooks, as many as Jason and the people at BattleTech can get people to put out. I doubt you'll see print releases, because as far as I know they still owe several printers money. I doubt the SR books will be of the highest quality, because Jason doesn't know the system or the setting well enough to judge quality, and because he has no vision for the line. I cannot speak about BattleTech in that regard, but I think if the situation gets dire enough at IMR Randall Bills might actively try to sink the line, because he reportedly made a statement to that effect during an owner's meeting. I can't say if that was hyperbole or not, since I wasn't there, but I don't trust him and wouldn't put it past him.

So many of the SR books have been so compromised from their original vision under their original developers that they're almost unrecognizable. The Sixth World Almanac has had so many troubles. The original vision - a sort of CIA factbook coffee table book - has been compromised and compromised again, until we're down to something like 40 countries. I won't go into the horrors that occurred when Marc Tassin was put on the project out of nowhere. The maps are good, the flags are brilliant. The writing on large chunks of it is probably going to be dire. I think anyone that has been reading these knows my opinion about War! and the Horizon adventures, and I don't expect those to change either, because there's no will on the part of the line developer to change it.

I'm curious as to why much of this can't appear as 6th world wiki entries, not least because that's what I imagined the almanac to be - a collection of information.

[otakusensei]

I've got a separate topic for this, but there are some things I wanted to address here.

...

I might buy that line from Randall if his company had any credibility left.

I'm sorry things had to shake out this way, it certainly doesn't look good for the line. On that note I'm really liking what I'm reading from the other thread. We'll be using PACKS for sure starting this Sunday. Excellent work there. I also enjoyed the '29 fiction and sections on the CAS and Japan. We'll have to see if Dragon Force X shows up in 6WA...

[phillosopherp]

So, as far as I know nothing was actually done about it. I don't like that. I give my time and effort fairly freely, as I think most of the freelancers (current and former) here will admit, and I don't mind seeing my work go uncredited. But I don't like to see it get stolen, or misused, even by accident. Maybe I'm a little gonzo at this point and overreacting; certainly I can understand Randall's position. I hope he can see mine. Because at this point, anyone that cares to will be able to compare my drafts and those others when they are released, and decide for themselves.
t
I don't want this to stop anyone from buying those books, if and when they are released. They will be canon, these won't be. They will be laid out properly, with art and better proofing and editing than I could manage on my own. The content will be different. There will be a new PACKS, or so I'm told, and it will be different. Maybe better. I don't vouchsafe that any of my stuff is perfect or even preferable. But it is free, to everybody.

Well Bobby at least now you also got poor man's copywrite on it... just sayin'!

[Ancient History]

That doesn't actually exist, but thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Taharqa]

AH, what do you hope to accomplish by posting this information? None of us are in a position to evaluate whether the work is derivative or not at this point since we don't have access to CGL's drafts. That will only become possible when these books are released. And even then, why try to inflame the public instead of going through appropriate legal channels?

[Ancient History]

I was trying to explain my reasons for posting the material in greater detail, and I did it hear because my reasons for posting them are directly relevant to the events being tracked in this thread. It is, therefore, relevant. I don't think fans are going to be any more inflamed about this than they should be by any of the other announcements by any of the other ex-freelancers in this thread.

On a personal level, I wanted the material out there where the fans can appreciate it.

[augmentin]

I was trying to explain my reasons for posting the material in greater detail, and I did it hear because my reasons for posting them are directly relevant to the events being tracked in this thread. It is, therefore, relevant. I don't think fans are going to be any more inflamed about this than they should be by any of the other announcements by any of the other ex-freelancers in this thread.

On a personal level, I wanted the material out there where the fans can appreciate it.

And I thank you for it.

Also, shrewd move to get the work out there before any derivative work could be published.

I'd like to point out to those who think that AH is just trying to tear down CGL: If that were the case, he'd have waited until these books went to press (plates made, production started) and then post these drafts. That would actually cost CGL money, not just inconvenience the developer and a few writers.

[darthmord]

I was trying to explain my reasons for posting the material in greater detail, and I did it hear because my reasons for posting them are directly relevant to the events being tracked in this thread. It is, therefore, relevant. I don't think fans are going to be any more inflamed about this than they should be by any of the other announcements by any of the other ex-freelancers in this thread.

On a personal level, I wanted the material out there where the fans can appreciate it.

I guess we'll know whether or not they are being truthful when those books get released and people can do comparisons. If they are close enough to be as you suggest... things could get hairy.

Thanks for releasing those drafts to the fanbase. I love seeing into the background that goes into the games I play.

[Ancient History]

Well, some of my (uncredited) material is going to be in upcoming books anyway - just nothing in these drafts. I did some substantial proofing and important changes in various drafts in 6WA and Corp Guide drafts, among others. I volunteered material to fill in gaps when there was whitespace on pages, and I didn't even keep copies of half of that - neither Jason or I are going to raise up a fuss about it. I gave the art notes for a bunch of flags - which, since the art was done before I left, I can't imagine they wouldn't use them, that would be six shades of retarded - actually, somebody in another thread remind me to tell you about how I ended up giving art notes for Seattle 2072. One project I was in the middle of, I was partnered up with Mark Dynna. We'd put together first drafts of a couple different sections of our chapter/booklet together, and when I terminated my contracts I made it clear that as far as I was concerned Mark should be credited as the sole author because if I tried to take the drafts with me, that would have been a dick move. That stuff doesn't concern me; the potential that my drafts were used as an outline mislikes me. Randall says no; we'll see.

[Cardul]

AH, you know, your recent posts kind of remind me a bit of this story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyyJ3D3g1E

[lehesu]

I'm shocked that a company declined to forward a series of unpublished drafts to an ex-employee that has vociferously spoken out against the company and its employees, even harshly criticising early drafts of work he received from a secret inside source. Absolutely shocked.

[Dread Moores]

Now, this is a pretty damn awkward situation for me - after all, my drafts are by definition derivative, and a lot of my material comes from research into publicly available sources - but a couple of the drafts were leaked to me, and without putting too fine a point on it there were terrible coincidences.

The fact that leaks of draft material is still occurring is hilarious.

I'm shocked that a company declined to forward a series of unpublished drafts to an ex-employee that has vociferously spoken out against the company and its employees, even harshly criticising early drafts of work he received from a secret inside source. Absolutely shocked.

But this...this is outright comedy. Well played.

But more to point, Ancient, I really hope they're not using your drafts. I guess we'll see eventually (possibly). Good on you for making the material available though. Can't say I totally agree with your thoughts on the situation, but it really doesn't matter much. They're your thoughts, not mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Steelfang]

I'm shocked that a company declined to forward a series of unpublished drafts to an ex-employee that has vociferously spoken out against the company and its employees, even harshly criticising early drafts of work he received from a secret inside source. Absolutely shocked.

Why should they send him a sopy of a draft? It's a work in progress and unpublished. AH does not have a NDA any longer so the company surety ofprotection from disclosure. I expect that AH would keep anything he found private and work through the legal system if he were to have received a copy, but the company has the right to protect its property.

[Dread Moores]

Why should they send him a sopy of a draft? It's a work in progress and unpublished. AH does not have a NDA any longer so the company surety ofprotection from disclosure. I expect that AH would keep anything he found private and work through the legal system if he were to have received a copy, but the company has the right to protect its property.

I think the original post was meant as sarcasm, Steelfang.

[Fuchs]

AH posting his drafts before anything is published by CGL instead of afterwards will assure one thing: No accusations that he is lieing about his drafts being so close, that he has fabricated his drafts after reading CGL's material etc. will be possible.

That alone is reason enough to post the drafts.

[Stahlseele]

Well, since nobody really seems to know the timing of this stuff, i'd be carefull with that kind of statement.

[Furluge]

But this...this is outright comedy. Well played.

No it's not. AH probably has a friend who still is working for CGL who has access to the material and is slipping him the material. Leaks happen all the time for everything, and you have to be very diligent to plug them up.

Lastly, if they are using your drafts AH, or something based on your drafts, well, it's a bummer to do all that work and not get paid or credited for it. Hate to say it though, but I think you're going to be SOL as far as doing something about it. It's really hard to remove your section from a collaborative project and 100% remove the material, and since all the work is technically work derivative of Shadowrun, it'd be something pretty difficult to impossible to fight as far as I understand it.

AH posting his drafts before anything is published by CGL instead of afterwards will assure one thing: No accusations that he is lieing about his drafts being so close, that he has fabricated his drafts after reading CGL's material etc. will be possible.

That alone is reason enough to post the drafts.

Yes, it's not 100%. Also, if I was CGL, and I knew that legally derivative works of something are considered to be owned by the copyright holder, and I owned the rights to Shadowrun via license, and I knew AH's work was derivative of Shadowrun, so ergo, I technically owned the copyright to AH's work, and I was sure that, legally, I had the right of it and there were no snags, and AH posted the drafts to said work, I know I would turn around and use his drafts and credit it to someone else as a big f-you to AH.

But then again, that's me, the guy who doesn't have much respect for copyrights to begin with.