CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[MindandPen]

Regarding Trees and Ghost Cartels:

[ Spoiler ]

You mean the whole business with Trees mentioned in Ghost Cartels on page 133 Secret of Tempo?

-M&P

[deek]

So, there is no law keeping me from writing all the SR stuff I want and posting it freely to the internet? As long as I don't take any money from it, that is okay? Just curious.

[Fuchs]

So, there is no law keeping me from writing all the SR stuff I want and posting it freely to the internet? As long as I don't take any money from it, that is okay? Just curious.

Check this:

This is not the first nor the last time that freelancers or former freelancers have released unpublished material on to the web. Steve Kenson has had a site up with his material for over 10 years and I can name a dozen others myself included. Catalyst and Topps have a published policy on the publishing fan material on the web (here). As long as Ancient includes the relevant disclaimers and given the decades of precedent the only reason for CGL to take action would be out of spite.

[crizh]

So, there is no law keeping me from writing all the SR stuff I want and posting it freely to the internet? As long as I don't take any money from it, that is okay? Just curious.

Hope so, or this whole website is built in a swamp...

[Dr.Rockso]

So, there is no law keeping me from writing all the SR stuff I want and posting it freely to the internet? As long as I don't take any money from it, that is okay? Just curious.

As far as I know you should be good. There a quite a few people on the boards who have posted awesome resources. Check out Knasser's site for some good ones. I'd be careful about using artwork from the books though.

[JM Hardy]

So, there is no law keeping me from writing all the SR stuff I want and posting it freely to the internet? As long as I don't take any money from it, that is okay? Just curious.

Different people interpret the law different ways. I don't have a problem with people doing fan art, fiction, rules, whatever; however, I'm not the person who makes final decisions about how Shadowrun material is used on the web, so my opinion only goes so far. I'm not aware, however, of any instances where such things had action taken against them. Posting copyrighted material (like art, as was mentioned above)? That can get you in trouble. Showing a Shadowrun movie at a con and charging admission? Also potential trouble. Putting up your own Shadowrun writings on the web? I don't see any reason to discourage that. IANAL, of course.

Jason H.

[JongWK]

Does anyone remember the Plastic Warriors supplements? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Catadmin]

He could just start mailing some drafts to himself (or others) certified mail or getting them in the hands of a document repository. Anything that puts a verifiable date or postmark on them. Then he waits a few months and if the drafts match his work he's got a lawsuit waiting to happen that would not only hold teeth against CGL/IMR but tops or anyone that wanted to republish the books in question.

This, unfortunately, is a myth about copyright that is simply not true. In no instance when a writer mailed a letter and got a postmark for "copyright purposes" was this evidence upheld in a court of law.

This per a company lawyer who held a session on copyright law and violations at my day job.

[Synner667]

Copyright is an important concept, for writers, musician, designers, etc...
...And below is a list of the top 10 copyright myths, direct from the copyright service website.

1. Copyright can protect my ideas
2. I can copyright a name or title
3. I can simply post a copy to myself as proof of copyright
4. Everything on the Internet ‘public domain’ and free to use
5. Anything without a copyright notice is not protected
6. If I change someone else’s work I can claim it as my own
7. I can legally copy 10% without it being infringement
8. It’s OK to use copy or publish other peoples work if I don't make any money out of it
9. It’s hard to prove copyright infringement
10. Confusion over copyright in music

Interesting stuff, and often misunderstood.

[Mesh]

8. It’s OK to use copy or publish other peoples work if I don't make any money out of it

How is that incorrect? Do you have more details?

Mesh

[Catadmin]

Copyright is an important concept, for writers, musician, designers, etc...

That's pretty much what I got out of the course. The really interesting thing is that all those people who embed other people's YouTube videos or pics? They're breaking copyright law.

You can link to the site, but you cannot copy it to your own forum/blog without permission.

[Ancient History]

How is that incorrect? Do you have more details?

Mesh

There are guidelines for fair use. Education, criticism, commentary, research, news reporting, parody, and transformative or productive use are generally protected. Denying credit to the original author, commercial use, etc. are generally not. Just because you're not making money off the deal doesn't automatically make it fair use, though.

[deek]

I guess it comes back to enforcement. It might be illegal, but until the owner enforces anything...

[Catadmin]

According to the information I have, the actual "fair use" term applies only to academic purposes insofar as the U.S. law actually states. In practice, though, it does include things like parody, debate, etc.

Many writers are usually careful when throwing around the "fair use" terminology, just in case it comes back to haunt them in a court of law.

[MJBurrage]

Copyright law also varies by country and date of original publication.

• Duration – between "50 years from publication" to "70 years after creators death". Because of this, Project Gutenberg Australia, legally hosts documents that would be illegal on the original Project Gutenberg (which is in the U.S.)
• Fonts – Generally not protected in the U.S., generally protected elsewhere.
• Photographic Reproduction. – Photographic reproductions of 2D art are not separately copyrightable in the US.
• Game Rules – The mechanics are specifically not protected in the U.S., the author's description of the mechanics is. Note that the "ideas are not copyrightable" point from the UK copyright list (posted previously), basically concludes the same thing.

[Catadmin]

> 8. It’s OK to use copy or publish other peoples work if I don't make any money out of it

How is that incorrect? Do you have more details?

Because the copyright still belongs to the people who published the material. They own the work, whether it's a commentary posted on their blog, a YouTube video of their Lego-mashing, or something in a book / RPG / magazine. By copying their work without permission, you are violating that copyright and essentially stealing from them. It doesn't matter whether or not you make money off of copying the work, you still need to pay them a fair fee for the use of their stuff or get their permission to use it for free.

There is, however, a copyright clearance house (two of them, I think), from which you can purchase temporary rights. One time or rights for materials over a period of time. The clearing houses are basically match-makers between copyright holders and those who wish to publish that work. Not everything is available through the clearing houses, but enough is that many companies use these clearing houses to purchase rights. Then, after a fee is taken out for the service, the remainder of the money goes to the copyright holder.

That being said: As others have noted, copyright enforcement is usually left up to the copyright holder.

[augmentin]

Does anyone remember the Plastic Warriors supplements? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Heck yes! We used it extensively in our SR2 games. There was several other supplements around that time, but sadly did not survive my transition to OSX a few years back. Does anyone still have them?

[JongWK]

Heck yes! We used it extensively in our SR2 games. There was several other supplements around that time, but sadly did not survive my transition to OSX a few years back. Does anyone still have them?

Try here.

[Platinum]

Heck yes! We used it extensively in our SR2 games. There was several other supplements around that time, but sadly did not survive my transition to OSX a few years back. Does anyone still have them?

Don't forget the Chromebook conversions. Gurth is/was awesome.

Back to the thread, I need to register and trademark NotShadowRun. Should be safe if I refer to Shadowrun as "The other one" right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[martian_bob]

According to the information I have, the actual "fair use" term applies only to academic purposes insofar as the U.S. law actually states. In practice, though, it does include things like parody, debate, etc.

Many writers are usually careful when throwing around the "fair use" terminology, just in case it comes back to haunt them in a court of law.

From the Copyright Act of 1976: "...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

Parody and debate is covered under stuff like criticism and comment.

Oh, and hi - long time reader, first time poster.

This post has been edited by martian_bob: Jun 4 2010, 03:52 AM

[augmentin]

Try here.

Awesome - thanks!

[kzt]

There are guidelines for fair use. Education, criticism, commentary, research, news reporting, parody, and transformative or productive use are generally protected. Denying credit to the original author, commercial use, etc. are generally not. Just because you're not making money off the deal doesn't automatically make it fair use, though.

Fair Use is a swamp. Last I knew there isn't a 'clear line' defense. Ultimately it's Fair Use when the judge says it is. Or it's not and you owe $250,000 plus actual damages plus legal fees.

More broadly, copyright law is a swamp.

[Abschalten]

More broadly, copyright law is a swamp.

Agreed.

[Big Freaky Sean]

[*]Game Rules – The mechanics are specifically not protected in the U.S., the author's description of the mechanics is. Note that the "ideas are not copyrightable" point from the UK copyright list (posted previously), basically concludes the same thing.

I find this one pretty interesting since it means that a company could theoretically use the current SR mechanics for their own game, provided that they changed/reworded the rules explanation. It does explain why so many systems look like D&D with their 6 stats.

[Lansdren]

I have a feeling that this thread is going to get locked if we end up with to much argument on the finer points of copyright much like we did when the legal eagals were doing their bit about the word 'The'

In the spirt of moving back to the proposed subject of speculation on the current situation I wonder if things will be delayed over the summer somewhat by people going on holiday.

I know the idea to some might seem silly but i've worked on a number of bids and contracts that are worth multiple millions and they have been put on hold right in negotiation because some big boss up the line is going away for a week. What is important to us here on the low level in the real world matters little to someone much higher up the chain.