CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Dynamo Dave]

This whole mess is really embarassing. I think the worse thing about it is that its made the fanbase incredibly hostile, petty, and combative. Sure theres always arguments and they get heated but at least those arguments are about the game not people attacking other posters simply for the sake of attacking other posters, accusing them without basis, and otherwise just being really cruddy all while trying to blame it on a company that made some serious mistakes. But mistakes that don't have anything to do with all the attacks and mudslinging going on.

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

Because it was the fans that sucked the publishing company dry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[RedFish]

Because it was the fans that sucked the publishing company dry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Amen brother, I recently acquired hardbook versions of SR4A corebook, Arsenal (thank you people who suggested it!) and Augmentation. Sure, they are pretty books, but ultimately I did it so I could run CGL into the ground, because I hate them and this game.

[knasser]

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

How are posts in this thread responsible for Loren Coleman having withdrawn hundreds of thousands of dollars from a company whilst failing to pay people who actually wrote the products for over a year, for instructing members of staff to falsify royalty reports to Topps, for banning one of the most prolific writers for 4th Edition from contributing to the game, for failing to pay monies owed to associated companies, for failing to pay multiple print companies, for a production schedule that was slippier than an oiled newt and for alienating most of the people who actually wrote 4th by first losing them and then promising others they will be paid for re-writing the originators work? (I'd give 50/50 on the payment happening, right now).

I've spent at least a couple of hundred pounds on 4th Edition products. I don't see how my being critical of CGL in this thread makes "the destruction of Shadowrun" my fault. But let's be clear about this - CGL losing the licence does not mean the "destruction of Shadowrun". With a bit of luck, it might actually be a good thing.

K.

[General Pax]

Im pretty sure he was talking about the fan base not the companies. Its blatantly hostile with people attacking people especially new people left and rite.

Peace and be very cool indeed.

[fistandantilus4....]

... Sure theres always arguments and they get heated but at least those arguments are about the game not people attacking other posters simply for the sake of attacking other posters, accusing them without basis, and otherwise just being really cruddy all while trying to blame it on a company that made some serious mistakes. ...

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

You're off there. Most of the time when there is an actual arguement, it is usually involving unrelated personal bits. Rules debates are generally pretty chill. The fans are not going to destroy Shadowrun if they care enough to come here and argue about it. If they care that much, I'd say it's the opposite.

And I'll thank you not to call our users "petty".

[JM Hardy]

Dumpshock has not exactly been my Happy Place in recent times, but there's no way I'm going to say that it or the fans are harming the game. People here are passionate fans, which generally is a good thing for a game to have. They're strongly opinionated fans, which is also fine. I'd never expect all the fans to agree with everything that anyone who releases Shadowrun product does; I'd certainly never expect them not to be critical. Their thoughts and criticisms can be extremely useful.

One other thing, though--Dumpshock is a great collection of Shadowrun knowledge and passion, but it's not the entire fanbase. It's a good-sized group of people who care about Shadowrun, but it's not necessarily representative of the whole of Shadowrun fandom. It's a slice. Not all fans react the way Dumpshock fans react--both for good and for ill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Jason H.

[General Pax]

Their thoughts and criticisms can be extremely useful.

Not if there post count is below 1000 apparintly.

[fistandantilus4....]

I remember when Knasser was new, and had useful thoughts and criticisms. I remember a lot of people that have come and gone with useful things to say immediately. I've also seen a number of recent new people come in with rough attitudes. I've seen some of those mellow, some leave, and some not really change much. So have a lot of other people. That's why there's so much sensitivity to it at the moment. Please don't add to it by taking one statement out of context, intentionally or not.

[JM Hardy]

Not if there post count is below 1000 apparintly.

No, yours too! Just because I don't agree with all your conclusions doesn't mean I don't appreciate you sharing them. I was interested enough to engage your points, which is part of what forum posting is all about. Honestly, I almost never look at anyone's post count, because I'm more interested in what they say than in how long they've been here. You've been given some good advice about posting style that will help as you continue to share your thoughts.

Jason H.

[knasser]

Things have become a bit heated in these threads. Dynamo Dave, I took your post to be meaning that the "destruction of Shadowrun" would be the fault of people arguing in threads like this. For the reasons I gave, I reckon these threads are insignificant in comparison to the actions of CGL management. If you meant that heated threads like this are destructive to the fan base, then yes, I suppose they are and I owe you an apology which I'll happily make now. You see many of us are extremely resentful of CGL's management and, imo, rightly so. Some take CGL's part and respond to such criticism quite angrily. Thus argument is pretty much inevitable. Given that the status quo is that CGL has the licence, gets away with its behaviour and potentially damages the Shadowrun line, arguing for people to stop complaining / drop such threads as these, by default tend to mean supporting CGL's behaviour. Hence when you make a comment that threads like these are destructive, there's a tendency to view that as stating people shouldn't complain about CGL's behaviour. Hopefully that explains where I was coming from.

I've just re-read my post and I don't think there's anything in there that could be construed as directed against you personally, it's what I saw as saying our arguing was going to be the thing that damaged Shadowrun rather than the long list of actual destructive actions, to which I objected. Still, I was pretty forceful in my post so please accept my apologies if I launched off on one. No offense is meant.

As General Pax says: "Peace and be cool". He's not-so-subtly quoting how I often sign off my posts here. Such a nuanced fellah, that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace and be cool,

Khadim.

[knasser]

I remember when Knasser was new, and had useful thoughts and criticisms.

Hmmm, I like to think I still do have useful thoughts and criticisms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

[Catadmin]

Hmmm, I like to think I still do have useful thoughts and criticisms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

K.

Nah. It's a fact of life that once a person becomes a veteran of a certain forum, (s)he's said everything that could possibly said at least once and all that person can do is reiterate the same points over and over again using a slightly different sentence structure. It's called "Curse of the Interwebs!"

(running away and hiding now.)
@=)

[Dread Moores]

You see many of us are extremely resentful of CGL's management and, imo, rightly so. Some take CGL's part and respond to such criticism quite angrily. Thus argument is pretty much inevitable. Given that the status quo is that CGL has the licence, gets away with its behaviour and potentially damages the Shadowrun line, arguing for people to stop complaining / drop such threads as these, by default tend to mean supporting CGL's behaviour.

Or it could just mean that folks would like to speculate about the future of the game line without the arguments that have already been covered in 7 prior threads. Sort of like the fact that there isn't two all-inclusive factions/sides in this "argument." There's also folks who are rather unhappy with CGL, but also are really unhappy with the torch and pitchfork reaction of this fanbase. *waves* But I forgot, we don't exist, since there is only the "right (CGL should burn!) side" and the "you're an apologist!" side.

[knasser]

But I forgot, we don't exist, since there is only the "right (CGL should burn!) side" and the "you're an apologist!" side.

That there are people who don't fit into Category A or Cateogory B, doesn't mean that there aren't people who do. I said there are people who are opposed to anyone condemning CGL, responding to any such criticism with quite angry sounding posts condemning the poster for what they said or saying they shouldn't say it, but never substantiating anything incorrect in their post. If you feel that you aren't in such a category, maybe I wasn't talking to you. Although to be fair, you did just respond to my criticisms with an angry sounding post that didn't actually refute anything I said.

K.

[knasser]

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

Peace Khadim...

May you return fully recharged and ready to go...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

Be back soon, we need people like you around here to be a counterweight to people like me ^^

[ravensmuse]

Come back soon knass. I know you and I don't speak often, but you were a thoughtful and coherent poster and always had something interesting to say.

[Lansdren]

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

May your inner calm be filled again, I for one look forward to your return

[Chrysalis]

Knasser, please do come back. You're one of the reasons I keep coming back to the forums.

[MindandPen]

Knasser, please come back when you have recharged. You will be missed.

I've been holding my fire on the rash of new posters which all have, apparently, had the same agenda - come in here guns blazing to point blame and fingers at everyone except LLC/IMR/CGL. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was a well orchestrated attack, designed to confuse the issue and drive off certain voices. Similar to an "astroturf" event or a coordinated troll/flamebait event. I have no proof that this is the case, but it sure reminds me of an infowar ops.

-M&P

[Dread Moores]

That there are people who don't fit into Category A or Cateogory B, doesn't mean that there aren't people who do. I said there are people who are opposed to anyone condemning CGL, responding to any such criticism with quite angry sounding posts condemning the poster for what they said or saying they shouldn't say it, but never substantiating anything incorrect in their post. If you feel that you aren't in such a category, maybe I wasn't talking to you. Although to be fair, you did just respond to my criticisms with an angry sounding post that didn't actually refute anything I said.

K.

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned the first part. Because I was starting to think you were becoming a proponent of the "there's only two sides here" crowd. And that was a bit disappointing, as I didn't really put you there previously. Heck, half of your posts alone (along with DE's) swung me out of the supporting CGL camp. It was a bad reaction on my part, more towards previous posters than you. My apologies on that.

[TheWanderingJewe...]

This whole mess is really embarassing. I think the worse thing about it is that its made the fanbase incredibly hostile, petty, and combative. Sure theres always arguments and they get heated but at least those arguments are about the game not people attacking other posters simply for the sake of attacking other posters, accusing them without basis, and otherwise just being really cruddy all while trying to blame it on a company that made some serious mistakes. But mistakes that don't have anything to do with all the attacks and mudslinging going on.

If anything destroys Shadowrun because of this fiasco, its the fans and the fans alone.

Being a Player from 1st edition on through all of Shadowruns Incarnations, and having picked up all of 4th eds books...........The Fan base is highly pissed that some weasel has pulled a Decipher on CG and hope the creep gets flayed for it. But I have nothing against the company. End of Story

[Furluge]

Hope so, or this whole website is built in a swamp...

Ever notice how there isn't a whole lot of Palladium or Rifts fan material, websites, etc? Yeah, Kevin Siembieda likes to lean toward the strict side of the copyright law. Although it didn't effect me, some people could talk about how TSR was before they folded. Games Workshop is known for smacking around their fans with copyright threats because they can on a regular basis. The point is this site very well could be built on a swamp. But in general, everything is somehow built on a swamp in that regard. Heck most people's lives are built on a swamp, legally, since thousands of laws are passed every year for everything and no one knows what they are. Someone sufficiently motivated can usually find something to pin on anyone. Bonus points if you can get judges who are prejudiced against you. (And trust me, most of them still think RPGs are satan worship thanks to the old D&D kerfuffle back in the 80's.)

Copyright is an important concept, for writers, musician, designers, etc...
...And below is a list of the top 10 copyright myths, direct from the copyright service website.
Interesting stuff, and often misunderstood.

You forgot myth 11. Copyright does not cause more harm than good
Well, that's my opinion anyway.

Fair Use is a swamp. Last I knew there isn't a 'clear line' defense. Ultimately it's Fair Use when the judge says it is. Or it's not and you owe $250,000 plus actual damages plus legal fees.

More broadly, copyright law is a swamp.

Very true. Allow me to present my guide to copyright law, and often most law in general.

M1=Your money
M2=Their money

If M1 > M2, then you win!* (Condition 1)
If M2 > M1, then you lose!* (Condition 2)
If M1 = M2, then engage in protracted eternal legal battle which lowers M1 and M2 at unknown variable rates. Continue process until condition 1 or condition 2 is true.

*If M1 or M2 is sufficiently large enough and the opposing value is incredibly small in comparison, then the side that has more money has probably won before the case even started by hiring a politician to write the law in their favor to begin with.