CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Abstruse]

You forgot myth 11. Copyright does not cause more harm than good
Well, that's my opinion anyway.

As a writer with many friends in the entertainment industry, I'm going to have to thoroughly disagree with you on that one, at least with that specific phrasing.

Now if what you mean was that the current copyright laws in the US, Canada, England, Australia, the EU, etc. as they are written and enforced cause more harm than good, then you might have a point. But if you mean to say that the ability for anyone creative to have a way to protect their work, then I'm sorry but I cannot agree with that. For a good example, see the current clusterfuck going on right now with the freelancers and payment. The only weapon they have to defend themselves against this sort of thing is that they own the copyright to material they have produced and only surrender that copyright upon payment per contract for work-for-hire. Sure, they could sue for breach of contract...but if it's only a couple hundred or couple thousand dollars, court costs alone not counting lawyers fees will blow that option right out of the water.

So basically...do we need to re-write our copyright laws to protect the consumer as much as the creator? Yes. Do we need to ditch copyright altogether? HELL no.

[Lansdren]

In a attempt to move away from any possible further discussion on copyright as it will never be a safe conversation. Has anyone heard anything new about the situation as we are now a full week into June and I'm wondering will this ever be settled

[Abstruse]

In a attempt to move away from any possible further discussion on copyright as it will never be a safe conversation. Has anyone heard anything new about the situation as we are now a full week into June and I'm wondering will this ever be settled

From what I understand, the license isn't up until next week at least. We'll probably see an announcement tomorrow (Monday) morning that the license has been extended another 3 months to a year to allow for a thorough investigation before any long-term deals are signed. That's just my guess though.

[crizh]

Copyright apologia.

Food for thought.

[Abstruse]

Food for thought.

Sorry, nope. Like I said, I'm a writer. For every project I write, I put in just as much work (sometimes more) per output as I do at my day job. Without copyright protection in some form, it is flat-out impossible for me to receive any payment or compensation for that work, which means why should I bother doing the work? You want copyright reform so that Sherlock Holmes and Lovecraft can come into public domain? I'll agree with that. You want the ability to put your music/movies/books/whatever in any format you choose after you've paid for it? No problem. But don't for a second thing that we don't need some form of copyright law to protect artists. Go check up on patent law and how screwed up that is right now, then start attacking poor writers, artists, and musicians.

[tristanh]

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

Sorry to see you go. I lurk mostly, and yes, I'm one of the people this mess dragged to dumpshock. You're clearly passionate about the game, and hope you come back soon, whoever ends up with the game.

Regarding your current game, I wouldn't drop it just yet. Members of your group have been reading your notes online? So use it against them. Let them all head in the direction you were originally going to go, then make that the wrong thing to do. Oops, they got suckered by bad intel. Welcome to Shadowrun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Then find a different group if they haven't learned the lesson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lansdren]

Sorry to see you go. I lurk mostly, and yes, I'm one of the people this mess dragged to dumpshock. You're clearly passionate about the game, and hope you come back soon, whoever ends up with the game.

Regarding your current game, I wouldn't drop it just yet. Members of your group have been reading your notes online? So use it against them. Let them all head in the direction you were originally going to go, then make that the wrong thing to do. Oops, they got suckered by bad intel. Welcome to Shadowrun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Then find a different group if they haven't learned the lesson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I love the suggestion for letting them use outside of game intel but making it be false.

[Fuchs]

Damn shame, Knasser, but understandable. I'd recommend the Den as an alternative (the discussions are at the least thought-provoking, and there's likely no better place to get information about mechanics and concepts of RPGs in general), but it's not to everybody's taste.

[Stahlseele]

Well, over there insulting people ain't as big of an issue as fallacies . .
If you can live with that and work with it, it's good.

[augmentin]

Dear moderators,
When loosing such a prolific creator for fan material as Khadim, it makes me sad. I respectfully request stepped up moderator involvement a la nba refs calling the fouls much tighter in a chippy game.
Thanks

I'm done here, I think. Dumpshock has become a source of abuse for me and I don't need this. I'll leave everyone to it. I'm kind of done with Shadowrun for a while anyway as I found members of my group have been deceitfully reading my notes online to find out the plot for my game, so I'll start a different group when I've met enough people that would be interested. No doubt I'll be back some other time, hopefully to find this mess long gone and the game prospering without any stupid changes from people who don't get it. Anyone who needs to get in touch, my email address is easily found.

CGL has a long list of wrongs they've done. The people who actually created 4th Edition have been excluded. I have no loyalty to those that merely made money from other's creativity which is mostly what is left of CGL. And I have no patience left for arguing against people who feel it is wrong to be angry about that or that one shouldn't kick up a fuss.

Peace to everyone,

Khadim.

[augmentin]

Knasser, please come back when you have recharged. You will be missed.

I've been holding my fire on the rash of new posters which all have, apparently, had the same agenda - come in here guns blazing to point blame and fingers at everyone except LLC/IMR/CGL. If I didn't know better, I'd say it was a well orchestrated attack, designed to confuse the issue and drive off certain voices. Similar to an "astroturf" event or a coordinated troll/flamebait event. I have no proof that this is the case, but it sure reminds me of an infowar ops.

-M&P

I've noticed that, too, but frankly, this whole thread has gotten so out of control and with people like Bull and Trollman (and now Knasser) already banned or recused, I don't know if it even matters. The only nice things to come out of all this were SoLA, Derie's drafts, and the Tom Dowd cameos. I've just elected to leave it alone while checking in periodically for any news. Either Topps will renew the license and through patience and discipline Hardy will "win" the PR battle. Some of the bitter old timers will leave and move on to new games (Eclipse Phase?), others will eventually come around. Or, a new company will win the license, maybe even a good one, and for years to come the old timers will debate the merits of the new company and whether or not books published in the Hardy era should be considered canon or not.

[otakusensei]

Well, it looks like the book that Jason sent to the printers last week was Corp Guide, because you can buy it now. At least, the PDF.

Jason, any chance of giving us a sample? For your own vindication it would be nice to see a section that was originally AH's work.

I can understand if you don't want to go that route, but as a customer I'm feeling pretty abused by CGL's policy of "soldiering on" like nothing is wrong. But that's been hashed and rehashed here. Fact is that you're missing an otherwise regular sale from me unless I have a reason to buy, and "Shadowrun" on the cover doesn't cut it anymore because I don't know what's backing that name these days. And I'm sure there are others that feel the same way. How about reaching out and standing by your product? But more than just standing there next to it; because, let's be honest, you're building your own rep here as well. I won't speak to your editing or your fiction, I'm curious how you and the people you trust with the line handle the meat of this game. At this minute there isn't enough to make my curiosity worth $18, because things really are that bad.

[Abstruse]

Well, it looks like the book that Jason sent to the printers last week was Corp Guide, because you can buy it now. At least, the PDF.

Jason, any chance of giving us a sample? For your own vindication it would be nice to see a section that was originally AH's work.

I can understand if you don't want to go that route, but as a customer I'm feeling pretty abused by CGL's policy of "soldiering on" like nothing is wrong. But that's been hashed and rehashed here. Fact is that you're missing an otherwise regular sale from me unless I have a reason to buy, and "Shadowrun" on the cover doesn't cut it anymore because I don't know what's backing that name these days. And I'm sure there are others that feel the same way. How about reaching out and standing by your product? But more than just standing there next to it; because, let's be honest, you're building your own rep here as well. I won't speak to your editing or your fiction, I'm curious how you and the people you trust with the line handle the meat of this game. At this minute there isn't enough to make my curiosity worth $18, because things really are that bad.

I doubt it was sent to the printers unless it was already there before all this. No way would they risk having to pulp the run if they don't get the license renewed (unless they rushed it to the printers as the license might let them continue to sell whatever had already been printed even if it's not renewed).

And I can't say who originally wrote it, but most of the sites seem to have the first half dozen or so pages online as a sample. I'd personally like to get more, but that's because I'm curious and I also can't fathom paying that much for a PDF. If I buy a book, I want a dead tree in my hands...but that's just me. My roommate's spent more on books for his Kindle than I have so far this year, and that's seriously saying something with my reading habits.

[DireRadiant]

Corp Guide Release Thread

[Bob Lord of Evil]

No way would they risk having to pulp the run if they don't get the license renewed

Sometimes you don't need an official statement...sometimes actions speak volumes all by themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Before you ask...

There has been no statement to the current freelancers about the license.
Nor have I received information from anyone at CGL that the license has been renewed.

[JM Hardy]

Putting up a Corp Guide sample on the Shadowrun4.com website is on my to-do list for today.

Jason H.

[MindandPen]

I've noticed that, too, but frankly, this whole thread has gotten so out of control and with people like Bull and Trollman (and now Knasser) already banned or recused, I don't know if it even matters.

You and I came on about the same time, and much earlier in the threads. We fired our shots, then sat back and watched the show. However, we both actually bothered to read all that came before and where, in my opinion, respectful.

I've always viewed online forums as a large party, where everyone is welcome. Every time someone new comes in, there is a bit of a disturbance by the front door as they announce themselves and settle into the environment. It is entirely possible that, given the nature of the CGL situation, a lot more people have decided to come to the party, and so we're seeing the normal influx of new people and "Hello World" craziness that happens. My concern is that given the number of new posters who came in kicking the door open and making a scene, I wondered if someone hired a crazy bus and drove up.

To me it matters, because a concerted group trying to overwhelm the message boards can derail an otherwise sane discussion. But again, it could be nothing more than the normal side effects of the CGL situation.

The only nice things to come out of all this were SoLA, Derie's drafts, and the Tom Dowd cameos.

Agreed. And those were nice things.

I've just elected to leave it alone while checking in periodically for any news. Either Topps will renew the license and through patience and discipline Hardy will "win" the PR battle. Some of the bitter old timers will leave and move on to new games (Eclipse Phase?), others will eventually come around. Or, a new company will win the license, maybe even a good one, and for years to come the old timers will debate the merits of the new company and whether or not books published in the Hardy era should be considered canon or not.

Agreed again, but we've already said our piece on this a few threads ago.

-M&P

[MindandPen]

Putting up a Corp Guide sample on the Shadowrun4.com website is on my to-do list for today.

Jason H.

Jason,

Earlier you asked us to grade you by the work you produced. So far, I give Corp Guide a B. There are some things I don't like, some things I would have changed, and a few places where you can tell it isn't as polished as others. However, given the situation, not a bad job. I'll have more to say as I read it over in detail.

-M&P

[Taharqa]

I've always viewed online forums as a large party, where everyone is welcome. Every time someone new comes in, there is a bit of a disturbance by the front door as they announce themselves and settle into the environment. It is entirely possible that, given the nature of the CGL situation, a lot more people have decided to come to the party, and so we're seeing the normal influx of new people and "Hello World" craziness that happens. My concern is that given the number of new posters who came in kicking the door open and making a scene, I wondered if someone hired a crazy bus and drove up.

To me it matters, because a concerted group trying to overwhelm the message boards can derail an otherwise sane discussion. But again, it could be nothing more than the normal side effects of the CGL situation.

That all seems a little strange coming from someone who registered on 3/23/2010. Discounting and disparaging posters by newness is IMO a pretty shitty underhanded tactic.

[MYST1C]

Yesterday, Tobias "Tigger" Hamelmann (German SR line developer) held a "What's up with Shadowrun" panel at the NordCon convention in Hamburg.
While he mainly talked about future German products the license question and its consequences for the German line were raised, naturally.

Tobias made it very clear that he was speaking hypothetically (he does not expect IMR/CGL to lose the license) but just in case IMR's license should not get renewed he is confident that German players would not even notice it as "a month at most" would pass until the license would find its new home.
Apparently there are several groups/companies interested in the license and every one of them has already stated its intend to continue working with Pegasus as the German sub-licensee (it seems the same goes for the French publisher, Black Book Editions).
Tobias didn't tell names but among the interested parties there are "several known faces from SR's past".

[All quotes from memory.]

[MindandPen]

That all seems a little strange coming from someone who registered on 3/23/2010. Discounting and disparaging posters by newness is IMO a pretty shitty underhanded tactic.

I wasn't "Discounting and disparaging posters by newness". I was commenting on the content of those posters and the apparent coincidence of their newness. I also, in the quote you partially quoted, referenced my own newness. I also mentioned I had read the other threads before posting, which I don't believe you did. If you had, you would notice where I related my personal history with Shadowrun, and the fact that I have lurked on this forum for several years without an account given who I worked for and the nature of the work. It is that past nature which raised the red flags which I commented on - specifically the apparent coordinated nature of the postings.

-M&P

[Taharqa]

t is that past nature which raised the red flags which I commented on - specifically the apparent coordinated nature of the postings.

There is nothing apparent about it. And it is precisely that language which does disparage and discount other posters without reference to the content of their posts.

[deek]

Let's not blow this up too much. Knasser, like several other GMs that post a lot of content from their own games on personal sites, end up needing a break. Given the fact that a lot of stuff is going on with CGL and the fact that he's got some issues with his home group, it makes sense for him to get away for a bit.

I've been around here since shortly after SR4 was released, maybe 4 years or so and when I'm not actively running a game, it fairly natural to not keep in touch with the game forum. I seem to remember him taking a break like this a year or two ago and then he came back recharged and ready to contribute again.

I'd say, don't make a big deal about it. He said what he was doing, so just let him do it. Don't try to rationalize or find cause, just let it happen. He'll be back. We always come back...even those that we don't want and swear to never post here again:)

[hermit]

Let's just say there was indeed an influx of new posters in these specific threads who all seemed to have quite a chip on their shoulder. Many were from the BT Forums, but there also were some who seemed to come from Frank's forum or at least have been directed here via their place. Not claiming this applies to you. It's just a generalised observation.

And, though I have been a member here since 5 years (and a lurker for much longer), my activity here also is periodic. I have a life outside the Forums too.

[Abstruse]

Let's not blow this up too much. Knasser, like several other GMs that post a lot of content from their own games on personal sites, end up needing a break. Given the fact that a lot of stuff is going on with CGL and the fact that he's got some issues with his home group, it makes sense for him to get away for a bit.

I've been around here since shortly after SR4 was released, maybe 4 years or so and when I'm not actively running a game, it fairly natural to not keep in touch with the game forum. I seem to remember him taking a break like this a year or two ago and then he came back recharged and ready to contribute again.

I'd say, don't make a big deal about it. He said what he was doing, so just let him do it. Don't try to rationalize or find cause, just let it happen. He'll be back. We always come back...even those that we don't want and swear to never post here again:)

Hell, I've been inactive around these parts for ages myself. Been a Shadowrun fanboy since I was 12 (yes, I bought SR2 the month it hit the shelves in 1992 and wore that damn book out to the point I had to buy it again...then wore THAT copy down and had to rebuy it again), joined these forums back in 2003 or so when I started hunting down all the books I was missing and got into reading the metaplot stuff in detail. Then I'd get bored with it or distracted by something shiny...and 6 months to a year later be right back. This last time, it's been probably 2-3 years, but just like Michael Corleone, just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!