CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[BlueMax]

Can we get back to speculating about CGL?
Or at least back to working on MegaMek (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To those who don't think there will be anything in print, I have to ask about my shiny new Operation Klondike. Its in print, beautiful and well written. Its too bad I don't like the whole Clan thing.

At this point, the only real speculation left is "Why do Shadowrun books continue to have pre-order without a street date?" As far as I can tell, the Battletech line doesn't preorder hardcopy until a street date. After the SR4LA "experience", it would be wise to move to a conservative policy.

BlueMax

[Stahlseele]

I have a life outside the Forums too.

Traitor! ^^

[emouse]

To me it matters, because a concerted group trying to overwhelm the message boards can derail an otherwise sane discussion.

I'm not sure when any of this discussion has ever been sane.

But at some point you have to accept that your point has been made and whether others accept it or not isn't up to you. Only time will tell.

That's where I'm at, with the periodic checkin to see what's new or what subject is being rehashed.

Every time there's some bit of interesting news there's usually some influx of new posters on both sides. Sometimes it might be a little heavier toward one or the other depending on the news, but in general it seems pretty even.

I've been around since 2002! 167 posts in 8 years. I think most of those are probably in this and related threads!

[Furluge]

As a writer with many friends in the entertainment industry, I'm going to have to thoroughly disagree with you on that one, at least with that specific phrasing.

Now if what you mean was that the current copyright laws in the US, Canada, England, Australia, the EU, etc. as they are written and enforced cause more harm than good, then you might have a point. But if you mean to say that the ability for anyone creative to have a way to protect their work, then I'm sorry but I cannot agree with that. For a good example, see the current clusterfuck going on right now with the freelancers and payment. The only weapon they have to defend themselves against this sort of thing is that they own the copyright to material they have produced and only surrender that copyright upon payment per contract for work-for-hire. Sure, they could sue for breach of contract...but if it's only a couple hundred or couple thousand dollars, court costs alone not counting lawyers fees will blow that option right out of the water.

So basically...do we need to re-write our copyright laws to protect the consumer as much as the creator? Yes. Do we need to ditch copyright altogether? HELL no.

This will be my last post about copyright and such, because as was pointed out it's a quagmire. All I'm going to say is I know you think you need the law, and I know you think it's protecting your work, but I believe that it in fact is doing next to nothing to actually protect your work and that any protection the law might possibility give you could be worked out through contracts. I believe it's more likely the law would be used against you as a club by someone with more money than you to trying to catch you in a legal trap than it is for the law to protect you. And lastly, I think the laws being re-written to what you and I would agree to be sensible* is impossible because the politicians who write the laws have already been bought off to write the law the way it is now, and they're much more interested in screwing over small content creators, stifling creativity, and keeping as much as possible within their control as possible and leaving you and I SOL rather than protecting the rights of content creators. That's why I think it needs to go.

I do think you and I and most people would behave similarly in regards to someone's work. The big difference is I don't think you need a law to do it, and I think once you do create said law it's more likely to be used for harm than good.

*Because even though I don't think it's helping, there's so much more out there to fight than a law I probably wouldn't cross in the first place.

At this point, the only real speculation left is "Why do Shadowrun books continue to have pre-order without a street date?" As far as I can tell, the Battletech line doesn't preorder hardcopy until a street date. After the SR4LA "experience", it would be wise to move to a conservative policy.

BlueMax

Someone's going to point this out so I will. Wouldn't it have had to have been at the printers before this debacle happened for it to be in print now? Not that I think CGL is going to go under or lose the license. In my opinion I think the company is going to pull through it and probably be better for it in the long run. Everything I've seen so far, in my opinion, show's a company that made a mistake, one that isn't even that unusual for smaller business, and now they don't have the cash flow they thought they would. Obviously there is going to be some scale back, they probably won't be able to do everything they'd hoped to as a business this year, but I think in a year or two they'll be back on track.

But at some point you have to accept that your point has been made and whether others accept it or not isn't up to you. Only time will tell.

That's about where I am at too. It is interesting to read about specifics that have been dug up.

[augmentin]

Agreed again, but we've already said our piece on this a few threads ago.

True, but then I usually talk too much.

For those lambasting M&P:
He's demonstrated a thorough knowledge of shadowrun, become a subject matter expert on tax evasion and the consequences thereof, always been tactful, and, well, his city was recently further underwater than New Orleans was. So, you know, give him a break. He's not one of the "bad guys."

With that, I wish all good night and good luck.

[Deadmannumberone]

I bought SR2 the month it hit the shelves in 1992 and wore that damn book out to the point I had to buy it again...then wore THAT copy down and had to rebuy it again

Perhaps IMR/CGL should take a page from FASA's "Improving Sales" book, and cut back on the product quality (I have several SR and BT books from the FASA era that ar also falling apart). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

I've been around since 2002! 167 posts in 8 years. I think most of those are probably in this and related threads!

That's 'cause you're a mouse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cardul]

Perhaps IMR/CGL should take a page from FASA's "Improving Sales" book, and cut back on the product quality (I have several SR and BT books from the FASA era that ar also falling apart). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I hope they don't! TacOps and StratOps are books that I already handle gingerly because of their huge size! If quality was cut back on to FASA era quality, they would likely
already be falling apart!

But I know what you are talking about..I do not even touch my old "The Matrix" book, because it has pages that broke free of the binding like a month after I got the book
(which was 2 months after it came out).

[Platinum]

Perhaps IMR/CGL should take a page from FASA's "Improving Sales" book, and cut back on the product quality (I have several SR and BT books from the FASA era that ar also falling apart). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Mine wore down from use, not because it was poorly made. I have owned 4 in my lifetime, and none had pages falling out. They were really well used, and friends beat them up more than I did. Heck that thing was in my highschool/college backpack. (and I was a claset gamer)

[BlueMax]

If you want to talk cheap books, you want to look at Games Workshop in the late 80's. I had two BloodBowl hardbacks that fell apart the moment I got them.

I hope CGL keeps whoever printed Masters and Minions. The print quality is amazing.

BlueMax

[Abstruse]

Mine wore down from use, not because it was poorly made. I have owned 4 in my lifetime, and none had pages falling out. They were really well used, and friends beat them up more than I did. Heck that thing was in my highschool/college backpack. (and I was a claset gamer)

I carried mine in my hand because, basically, I didn't care. By the time I got to the point anyone would make fun of me for playing games at my age, I had already started listening to NOFX, Rancid, Bad Religion, etc. and had an attitude to match. I'm also notoriously hard on books (which is odd since I was literally raised in a bookstore...and not in that "I use 'literally' when I mean 'very'" way...my mother owned a new/used bookstore from when I was 5 until I was 21). I don't even have a copy of the 2nd Ed BBB at this point, even though I've owned at least three copies. I found my 3rd Ed when I was digging out stuff and it's about ready to lose its cover if I look at it funny. Same with my Street Samurai Catalog and Shadowtech. Thankfully, the rest are in pretty good shape for me to beat up reading while I'm jobless for a week.

The quality really wasn't that bad on the old FASA books. The bindings only broke on the BBB, which was well over 300 pages. All my sourcebooks just have the normal wear and tear from getting tossed around by a teenager. The only sourcebook I have that's losing pages due to binding or anything else is Prime Runners. I'm probably missing at least four or five pages at this point. For the paperback versions, I'd say the quality of the binding was actually slightly better under FASA. The page quality from FanPro was definitely better, but they feel more...I don't know exactly, but I don't think they'd've stood up to my 16 year old self. I don't have many of the CGL ones yet (waiting for my last check at my previous job to clear before I go shopping), but if my copy of Shadowtech is holding up between my flipping pages to get stat info while creating characters as well as my re-re-re-re-re-reading the shadowtalk sections to watch Smiling Bandit pwn everyone, I can't see how they could improve on that.

[Abstruse]

If you want to talk cheap books, you want to look at Games Workshop in the late 80's. I had two BloodBowl hardbacks that fell apart the moment I got them.

I hope CGL keeps whoever printed Masters and Minions. The print quality is amazing.

BlueMax

Want to talk about shitty binding? Track down whoever Roc was going with in the late 90s. We went through at least three bottles of rubber cement gluing the pages back into the cover on their paperbacks when people would trade them in. Get over 90 degrees (which is very easy to do in Gulf Coast area of Texas) and the glue binding the pages to the cover would completely detach. Like you've got the cover in one hand and all the pages of the book in the other. I am NOT exaggerating.

[kzt]

I hope CGL keeps whoever printed Masters and Minions. The print quality is amazing.

They seem to be running out new printers they can shaft, so they might have to start using the same printers again. Assuming they ever actually print anything again.

[JM Hardy]

They seem to be running out new printers they can shaft, so they might have to start using the same printers again. Assuming they ever actually print anything again.

Given that Catalyst had printed products hit the streets in May and that Corp Guide has already been sent to the printers (as has another Shadowrun book), I am optimistic about the state of our printing.

Jason H.

[Ancient History]

I'm less than optimistic about the fact that you guys sloppily copied the Mitsuhama corporate profile from my draft.

[Dread Moores]

And....there goes the bell for Round 412. I give it another three pages at max before we're on thread nine.

[Abstruse]

And....there goes the bell for Round 412. I give it another three pages at max before we're on thread nine.

Naw, seems to be contained in the thread where J announced the PDF for now...we'll see in the morning.

[Dr.Rockso]

And....there goes the bell for Round 412. I give it another three pages at max before we're on thread nine.

It's all fun and games until someone loses and ear (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Catadmin]

I'm less than optimistic about the fact that you guys sloppily copied the Mitsuhama corporate profile from my draft.

And I'm less than optimistic that you're accusing me of stealing from your draft when I haven't even read your damn material yet.

Have the decency to confront me directly via AIM or email, Bobby, instead of through the forums.

[Ancient History]

And I'm less than optimistic that you're accusing me of stealing from your draft when I haven't even read your damn material yet.

Have the decency to confront me directly via AIM or email, Bobby, instead of through the forums.

I did send you an AIM message, Brandie, and I'm not accusing you of stealing anything. I think if anyone lifted anything, it was Jason and the corporate profile.

[Catadmin]

I did send you an AIM message, Brandie, and I'm not accusing you of stealing anything. I think if anyone lifted anything, it was Jason and the corporate profile.

Bobby, for the public record, most of that information was in the wiki and I rewrote it based on the style of the Renraku chapter profile -- which YOU DID NOT TOUCH so far as I know.

I've got to get back to work now and will not discuss the rest of this on the forums so as not to violate TOS.

[Dread Moores]

You know what I'm speculating on? How nice it'll be to get a real read on what new CGL material is like (if it should happen). You know, when we're long past the material where the accusations of copying material from former freelancers can be bandied about. That to me is the more accurate read on whether the new CGL material is worth it. Once all those folks who left no longer have any finger prints on it.

[Abstruse]

You know what I'm speculating on? How nice it'll be to get a real read on what new CGL material is like (if it should happen). You know, when we're long past the material where the accusations of copying material from former freelancers can be bandied about. That to me is the more accurate read on whether the new CGL material is worth it. Once all those folks who left no longer have any finger prints on it.

The Corporate Guide PDF that's online is after the various freelancers pulled their work from what I understand (and from the arguments/accusations being bandied about).

[JM Hardy]

The Corporate Guide PDF that's online is after the various freelancers pulled their work from what I understand (and from the arguments/accusations being bandied about).

Only one freelancer, Bobby, pulled his work from Corporate Guide. The work of others remains in place.

Jason H.

[Dread Moores]

The Corporate Guide PDF that's online is after the various freelancers pulled their work from what I understand (and from the arguments/accusations being bandied about).

Oh, I understand it's after Ancient and others pulled their his work. These are still products living under the shadow of the former freelancers work, most particularly when the accusations of copy/paste are flying about. I just not sure I see the current material coming out getting a balanced eye cast towards its quality, while still living under that shadow.

Edit: Corrected, based off Jason's statement.