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> Sonar/Radar, How do you deal with them?
Stormdrake
post May 28 2010, 03:05 PM
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The descriptions for these devices are very unclear. There is no dice roll or modifier described as far as I have been able to find. It basiclly comes down to, if a character has one of these they can see all. Am I missing something? Has any one modified them so they are not so game breaking?
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Catadmin
post May 28 2010, 03:21 PM
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I would think that realistically, sonar could be jammed with white noise and that radar could be jammed with anti-radar coating or materials.

What is the context in which they are coming up in your game?
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LurkerOutThere
post May 28 2010, 03:23 PM
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I havn't had a real problem with them being game breaking so I'm curious what problems your having with them, they have their limitations to what they can percieve through. For things like invisibility they merely reduce an "I win" button to a contested infiltration roll, which seems quite acceptable for future tech/cyber ware.
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Drats
post May 28 2010, 03:30 PM
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They're a type of "vision" like any other, subject to modifiers and the whole shebang. As has been noted, they're subject to jammers. When being actively used, they're also subject to detection, something that can't be said for any other vision type. I'd imagine that the more secure facilities would see that type of technology coming and would be ready for it. Also, for what it's worth, Radar can only "see" out to 100 meters (signal rating 2), which is less than the length of a football field.
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Catadmin
post May 28 2010, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Drats @ May 28 2010, 10:30 AM) *
They're a type of "vision" like any other...


Hang on. Sonar's listed as vision? Without the sound aspect attached?

Darnit. Don't have my books at work with me...

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Stormdrake
post May 28 2010, 03:38 PM
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Some issues that have come up are stealthed or hiding npc's being detected without a dice roll as they are only around a corner or hiding under an invisibility spell. As written, radar and/or sonar make it nearly impossible to suprise the character.

Drat, where does it say radar has a range? That has been one of the annoying points as my copy of the BBB says nothing about range. While I agree both are a type of vision the discriptions don't indicate a perception test is needed.
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Drats
post May 28 2010, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (Catadmin @ May 28 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Hang on. Sonar's listed as vision? Without the sound aspect attached?

That's why I put "vision" in quotation marks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm not sure we're being clear with terms here, though. The only listing of "sonar" in the SR4a index is on page 60 of Arsenal, where it's listed as an underwater sensor type which is not affected by visibility modifiers but can be fooled with Silence and Stealth spells, taking a -1 per net hit. I was thinking of Ultrasound, which is indeed listed on the visibility tables in SR4a complete with modifiers.

If you're talking about the Echolocation system in Augmentation, I'm unfortunately sans my copy at the moment. I DO remember that information received using that sense can be less distinct than other senses, but that might just be fluff.

QUOTE (Stormdrake @ May 28 2010, 04:38 PM) *
Drat, where does it say radar has a range?

The only thing I know of that can grant a player the kind of object-penetrating radar we seem to be talking about is the headware implant in Augmentation. I'm without my book, but I just installed one in a character so I happen to know that it's treated as having a signal of 2 for determining visibility ranges, (which is listed as 100 meters in the Matrix chapter) and being subject to all the same visibility modifiers as ultrasound, as well as to jamming.

If you're talking about the external radar sensors listed under Running Gear on p. 60 of Arsenal, they suffer dice pool modifiers when used in cluttered terrain (like urban settings, foliage, etc.) and aren't listed as being able to see through walls. IMHO, I'd count most indoor settings with a floor plan more complicated than a middle-class home as imposing penalties.
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Karoline
post May 28 2010, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ May 28 2010, 11:38 AM) *
While I agree both are a type of vision the discriptions don't indicate a perception test is needed.


It also doesn't say the need for a perception test is negated, and really there isn't any more reason for the perception test to be negated using any of those kinds of vision than there is using your normal eyes.
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Catadmin
post May 28 2010, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ May 28 2010, 10:38 AM) *
Some issues that have come up are stealthed or hiding npc's being detected without a dice roll as they are only around a corner


Around a corner? Radar does not penetrate solid objects. It bounces off them. I can see the invisibility thing, but I wouldn't let a character get away with seeing around corners because of Radar or Sonar. Since Radar and Sonar go out in "straight" lines (i.e., the waves don't turn corners), there's no way the character could see your NPC.
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Karoline
post May 28 2010, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Catadmin @ May 28 2010, 11:53 AM) *
Around a corner? Radar does not penetrate solid objects. It bounces off them. I can see the invisibility thing, but I wouldn't let a character get away with seeing around corners because of Radar or Sonar. Since Radar and Sonar go out in "straight" lines (i.e., the waves don't turn corners), there's no way the character could see your NPC.


Unless you're talking about the UWBR. That one causes problems, because someone just has to walk into a building and they get a complete 3D layout. Or heck, even just walk next to it, because at max rating of 4, it goes out to 200m or so I think. You'd still need to make perception tests to notice people though (Is that a plant or a person or a statue maybe?)
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Drats
post May 28 2010, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ May 28 2010, 04:59 PM) *
Unless you're talking about the UWBR. That one causes problems, because someone just has to walk into a building and they get a complete 3D layout. Or heck, even just walk next to it, because at max rating of 4, it goes out to 200m or so I think. You'd still need to make perception tests to notice people though (Is that a plant or a person or a statue maybe?)


UWBR functions like the cyberware, though, which if I read it right means a flat visibility range of 100 meters, regardless. Upping the rating just raises the amount of material it can see through-- a 4 would juuust be able to penetrate 2 densiplast walls, and couldn't make it through 2 brick ones. I think being able to see into the next room is fair for the price, honestly.

(Edit for clarification: Each point of rating allows you to see through 5 points of barrier structure rating.)
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Catadmin
post May 28 2010, 04:13 PM
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I need to go back and check on that. The idea that such vision would be 360 degrees is uber-twinky. If I were GMing, I'd restrict it to line of sight and "paying attention" factor, so distractions count as modifiers and perception tests are still needed when you're not staring right at something.

Also a perception test to figure out if what you're looking at through this vision is a human or a statue.
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Stormdrake
post May 28 2010, 04:29 PM
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I have been making players make perception tests but because of all the complaining that the description does not indiccate a perception test is required I thought I would ask.

Thanks all
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Karoline
post May 28 2010, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Drats @ May 28 2010, 11:04 AM) *
UWBR functions like the cyberware, though, which if I read it right means a flat visibility range of 100 meters, regardless. Upping the rating just raises the amount of material it can see through-- a 4 would juuust be able to penetrate 2 densiplast walls, and couldn't make it through 2 brick ones. I think being able to see into the next room is fair for the price, honestly.

(Edit for clarification: Each point of rating allows you to see through 5 points of barrier structure rating.)


Yeah, and the cyberware comes in 4 ratings, and it has a range equal to a signal of the rating of the cyberware.
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MindandPen
post May 28 2010, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ May 28 2010, 11:29 AM) *
I have been making players make perception tests but because of all the complaining that the description does not indiccate a perception test is required I thought I would ask.

Thanks all


I look at it from this standpoint: There is detection, then there is recognition.

Yes, the radar can detect the guys around the corner - and the bum down the street, the two people arguing a floor above, etc. You then have to determine what is a real threat, and what is something it picked up. That's where I could see a perception roll coming in.

-M&P
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Drats
post May 28 2010, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ May 28 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Yeah, and the cyberware comes in 4 ratings, and it has a range equal to a signal of the rating of the cyberware.


Does it? Like I said, I don't have my book on me, but I was pretty sure that they said it was Signal 2 across the board unless it was erratad or my short term memory glitched on me, both of which are possible. (Granted, it doesn't make a lot of sense to posit that upping the amount of material the waves could penetrate wouldn't up their range, but when offered the choice between RAW and perfectly sensible twinkery I usually opt for RAW).


QUOTE (Catadmin @ May 28 2010, 04:13 PM) *
I need to go back and check on that. The idea that such vision would be 360 degrees is uber-twinky. If I were GMing, I'd restrict it to line of sight and "paying attention" factor, so distractions count as modifiers and perception tests are still needed when you're not staring right at something.

Also a perception test to figure out if what you're looking at through this vision is a human or a statue.

The description of the implant lists it as overlaying or replacing your vision with a 3D electronic representation of whatever the radar detects, so this is actually pretty plausible. Of course, I'm sure there'll be players that ask why they can't zoom out to an isometric view of the data in an AR window, but those sorts are the reason my group keeps a cap around that says "Because I'm the G.M." underneath the brim when you flip it up.
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Ascalaphus
post May 28 2010, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (Drats @ May 28 2010, 05:50 PM) *
Does it? Like I said, I don't have my book on me, but I was pretty sure that they said it was Signal 2 across the board unless it was erratad or my short term memory glitched on me, both of which are possible. (Granted, it doesn't make a lot of sense to posit that upping the amount of material the waves could penetrate wouldn't up their range, but when offered the choice between RAW and perfectly sensible twinkery I usually opt for RAW).


It penetrates Rating * 5 Structure of barriers; it only has a Signal of 2 (regardless of Rating) for purposes of range and jamming.

QUOTE (Drats @ May 28 2010, 05:50 PM) *
The description of the implant lists it as overlaying or replacing your vision with a 3D electronic representation of whatever the radar detects, so this is actually pretty plausible. Of course, I'm sure there'll be players that ask why they can't zoom out to an isometric view of the data in an AR window, but those sorts are the reason my group keeps a cap around that says "Because I'm the G.M." underneath the brim when you flip it up.


This is where things like an Attention Co-Processor come in. It doesn't really say one way or the other about 360 degree or not, but normal vision tends to flicker from side to side too, to catch a broader field of vision. It'll be rather a strange sensation for someone who'd got a new implant though.

It's a nifty implant; it basically allows you to "automap" places you walk through, spot secret doors etcetera. But Signal 2 is fairly easily stopped - perhaps even by the WiFi inhibiting wallpaper advertised in Unwired?
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HappyDaze
post May 28 2010, 05:13 PM
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I believe that UWBR is directional - it only operates within the user's field of vision (and possibly in an even more restricted cone) - rather than omnidirectionally.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 28 2010, 05:23 PM
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UWBR is a vision system – use it like ultrasound.

As for Radar and Sonar – use the Sensor rules for vehicles.
In fact, those sensors are the only ones I use those rules for – everything else is just Perception.
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Ascalaphus
post May 28 2010, 06:08 PM
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The description of the Radar implant in Augmentation (which is UWBR) does talk pretty clearly in terms of seeing, yes.
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Yerameyahu
post May 28 2010, 06:17 PM
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So, get 2, 4, or 6 UWB Radar sensors and velcro them to your vest. Problem solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Run recognition sensor software and have the commlink feed the results to you as AROs. Still only 100m, if the above posters are correct, though.
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HappyDaze
post May 28 2010, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 28 2010, 02:17 PM) *
So, get 2, 4, or 6 UWB Radar sensors and velcro them to your vest. Problem solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Run recognition sensor software and have the commlink feed the results to you as AROs. Still only 100m, if the above posters are correct, though.

And now you have a distraction issue at least as bad as using an eyeband, likely worse as you have to compensate for seeing through opaque solids.
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Ascalaphus
post May 28 2010, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 28 2010, 07:17 PM) *
So, get 2, 4, or 6 UWB Radar sensors and velcro them to your vest. Problem solved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Run recognition sensor software and have the commlink feed the results to you as AROs. Still only 100m, if the above posters are correct, though.


That would do it yeah.

I understand why GMs get annoyed when players start carrying huge sensor arrays, because the GM has to remember to describe input to about 18 new types of senses. But from a player perspective, well, getting Surprised is deadly, and the sensors are available..
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LurkerOutThere
post May 28 2010, 06:33 PM
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I just get around this by only making descriptions based only on standard senses unless someone specifically asks for something else. When making tests to notice something in the enviroment I have the character add a modifier for senses they do or don't have as appropriate. It may not be a perfect solution but it seems to satisfy my players and the needs to the narrative.

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Catadmin
post May 28 2010, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (MindandPen @ May 28 2010, 12:38 PM) *
I look at it from this standpoint: There is detection, then there is recognition.


Definitely a good point!
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