The descriptions for these devices are very unclear. There is no dice roll or modifier described as far as I have been able to find. It basiclly comes down to, if a character has one of these they can see all. Am I missing something? Has any one modified them so they are not so game breaking?
Thanks,
Stormdrake

I would think that realistically, sonar could be jammed with white noise and that radar could be jammed with anti-radar coating or materials.

What is the context in which they are coming up in your game?

I havn't had a real problem with them being game breaking so I'm curious what problems your having with them, they have their limitations to what they can percieve through. For things like invisibility they merely reduce an "I win" button to a contested infiltration roll, which seems quite acceptable for future tech/cyber ware.

They're a type of "vision" like any other, subject to modifiers and the whole shebang. As has been noted, they're subject to jammers. When being actively used, they're also subject to detection, something that can't be said for any other vision type. I'd imagine that the more secure facilities would see that type of technology coming and would be ready for it. Also, for what it's worth, Radar can only "see" out to 100 meters (signal rating 2), which is less than the length of a football field.

Hang on. Sonar's listed as vision? Without the sound aspect attached?

Darnit. Don't have my books at work with me...

Some issues that have come up are stealthed or hiding npc's being detected without a dice roll as they are only around a corner or hiding under an invisibility spell. As written, radar and/or sonar make it nearly impossible to suprise the character.

Drat, where does it say radar has a range? That has been one of the annoying points as my copy of the BBB says nothing about range. While I agree both are a type of vision the discriptions don't indicate a perception test is needed.

That's why I put "vision" in quotation marks

I'm not sure we're being clear with terms here, though. The only listing of "sonar" in the SR4a index is on page 60 of Arsenal, where it's listed as an underwater sensor type which is not affected by visibility modifiers but can be fooled with Silence and Stealth spells, taking a -1 per net hit. I was thinking of Ultrasound, which is indeed listed on the visibility tables in SR4a complete with modifiers.

If you're talking about the Echolocation system in Augmentation, I'm unfortunately sans my copy at the moment. I DO remember that information received using that sense can be less distinct than other senses, but that might just be fluff.


The only thing I know of that can grant a player the kind of object-penetrating radar we seem to be talking about is the headware implant in Augmentation. I'm without my book, but I just installed one in a character so I happen to know that it's treated as having a signal of 2 for determining visibility ranges, (which is listed as 100 meters in the Matrix chapter) and being subject to all the same visibility modifiers as ultrasound, as well as to jamming.

If you're talking about the external radar sensors listed under Running Gear on p. 60 of Arsenal, they suffer dice pool modifiers when used in cluttered terrain (like urban settings, foliage, etc.) and aren't listed as being able to see through walls. IMHO, I'd count most indoor settings with a floor plan more complicated than a middle-class home as imposing penalties.

It also doesn't say the need for a perception test is negated, and really there isn't any more reason for the perception test to be negated using any of those kinds of vision than there is using your normal eyes.

Around a corner? Radar does not penetrate solid objects. It bounces off them. I can see the invisibility thing, but I wouldn't let a character get away with seeing around corners because of Radar or Sonar. Since Radar and Sonar go out in "straight" lines (i.e., the waves don't turn corners), there's no way the character could see your NPC.

Unless you're talking about the UWBR. That one causes problems, because someone just has to walk into a building and they get a complete 3D layout. Or heck, even just walk next to it, because at max rating of 4, it goes out to 200m or so I think. You'd still need to make perception tests to notice people though (Is that a plant or a person or a statue maybe?)

UWBR functions like the cyberware, though, which if I read it right means a flat visibility range of 100 meters, regardless. Upping the rating just raises the amount of material it can see through-- a 4 would juuust be able to penetrate 2 densiplast walls, and couldn't make it through 2 brick ones. I think being able to see into the next room is fair for the price, honestly.

(Edit for clarification: Each point of rating allows you to see through 5 points of barrier structure rating.)

I need to go back and check on that. The idea that such vision would be 360 degrees is uber-twinky. If I were GMing, I'd restrict it to line of sight and "paying attention" factor, so distractions count as modifiers and perception tests are still needed when you're not staring right at something.

Also a perception test to figure out if what you're looking at through this vision is a human or a statue.

I have been making players make perception tests but because of all the complaining that the description does not indiccate a perception test is required I thought I would ask.

Thanks all

Yeah, and the cyberware comes in 4 ratings, and it has a range equal to a signal of the rating of the cyberware.

I look at it from this standpoint: There is detection, then there is recognition.

Yes, the radar can detect the guys around the corner - and the bum down the street, the two people arguing a floor above, etc. You then have to determine what is a real threat, and what is something it picked up. That's where I could see a perception roll coming in.

-M&P

Does it? Like I said, I don't have my book on me, but I was pretty sure that they said it was Signal 2 across the board unless it was erratad or my short term memory glitched on me, both of which are possible. (Granted, it doesn't make a lot of sense to posit that upping the amount of material the waves could penetrate wouldn't up their range, but when offered the choice between RAW and perfectly sensible twinkery I usually opt for RAW).



The description of the implant lists it as overlaying or replacing your vision with a 3D electronic representation of whatever the radar detects, so this is actually pretty plausible. Of course, I'm sure there'll be players that ask why they can't zoom out to an isometric view of the data in an AR window, but those sorts are the reason my group keeps a cap around that says "Because I'm the G.M." underneath the brim when you flip it up.

It penetrates Rating * 5 Structure of barriers; it only has a Signal of 2 (regardless of Rating) for purposes of range and jamming.



This is where things like an Attention Co-Processor come in. It doesn't really say one way or the other about 360 degree or not, but normal vision tends to flicker from side to side too, to catch a broader field of vision. It'll be rather a strange sensation for someone who'd got a new implant though.

It's a nifty implant; it basically allows you to "automap" places you walk through, spot secret doors etcetera. But Signal 2 is fairly easily stopped - perhaps even by the WiFi inhibiting wallpaper advertised in Unwired?

I believe that UWBR is directional - it only operates within the user's field of vision (and possibly in an even more restricted cone) - rather than omnidirectionally.

UWBR is a vision system – use it like ultrasound.

As for Radar and Sonar – use the Sensor rules for vehicles.
In fact, those sensors are the only ones I use those rules for – everything else is just Perception.

The description of the Radar implant in Augmentation (which is UWBR) does talk pretty clearly in terms of seeing, yes.

So, get 2, 4, or 6 UWB Radar sensors and velcro them to your vest. Problem solved. Run recognition sensor software and have the commlink feed the results to you as AROs. Still only 100m, if the above posters are correct, though.

And now you have a distraction issue at least as bad as using an eyeband, likely worse as you have to compensate for seeing through opaque solids.

That would do it yeah.

I understand why GMs get annoyed when players start carrying huge sensor arrays, because the GM has to remember to describe input to about 18 new types of senses. But from a player perspective, well, getting Surprised is deadly, and the sensors are available..

I just get around this by only making descriptions based only on standard senses unless someone specifically asks for something else. When making tests to notice something in the enviroment I have the character add a modifier for senses they do or don't have as appropriate. It may not be a perfect solution but it seems to satisfy my players and the needs to the narrative.

Definitely a good point!

Okay, Augmentation stats for Radar:

Headware Essence Capacity Availability Cost
Radar Sensor (Rating 1–4) 0.3 [2] 12 Rating x 3,000¥

Part of description reads "An expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts
the information into a three-dimensional “map” that overlays (or replaces) the user’s visual senses, similar in some ways to ultrasound. The advantage to the radar sensor is that it can “see” through walls and other materials, which appear as translucent. This system is excellent for detecting motion (even as slight as breathing), calculating exact distances, and allowing the character to visualize floorplans, locations of people, and placement of materials like weapons."

Description definitely indicates this is field of vision rather than 360 degrees, so your player can't see behind him, unless he turns to look, can't see above or below, again unless he turns to look, etc. So there's part of your perception. Additionally, the section I bolded indicates to me that there is definitely an advantage to high stealth rolls here. If you have an NPC who is holding his breath and remaining motionless as part of his stealth (ninja anyone?), and rolls high enough to justify it, how can the PC know that the NPC is actually human without bringing in other sensory options? And given the "replaces" comment, I'd have to wonder if you can even combine radar and infrared effectively in such a scenario.

And there's such a thing as To Much Information. Using the radar vision doesn't automatically mean you know everything. First you have to process the incoming information and then understand what it's telling you, which again indicates a perception test to me. This is where M&P and I are in agreement. Detection, then Recognition. And that takes enough time that I would think a player can certainly still be surprised or ambushed, regardless of seeing the "hiding" NPCs.

But I'm arguing from the point of a GM that doesn't want to let one player power-game his way through a session and basically become the star of the game to the detriment of the other players. If you want to show the player the error of his perceptions, make everything a potential threat. Then let him pick the target that ends up being a harmless civilian with a baby.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, "The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound.
It can penetrate its rating x 5 of cumulative barrier Structure ratings (see p. 157, SR4). For example, a Rating 2 radar sensor could “see through” two Structure rating 5 walls." The stuff I left out can be found in Augmentation pg 35-36.

No distraction. You're not watching all the sensors at once, as I explained. But certainly not, as above says, perfect/instant/no-Perception-tests. Regular vision requires Perception tests, and so does this.

Any place worth scouting out will have UWBR sensors that will sound an alert if they're swept by a radar beam, and turn on a jammer.

The opfor uses UWBR too - if they keep it on passive, your UWBR beam from another room will look like a flashlight through a window. Say hello to incoming fire.

What happens if two UWBR users look at each other? I'm guessing they blind each other. If the beam can go through a wall, bounce off a target, and be observable, then the beam shone directly at you would overload your sensor, wouldn't it?

That's silly: *everywhere* is worth scouting. UWB radar means never having to say 'ohshit!'.

A passive radar isn't too useful for vision, though, so it's definitely a tradeoff.

No, I wouldn't expect a blinding effect. Radar is time-gated and electronically-processed; jammers overload the sensor by being much stronger, carefully targeted, or filling many frequencies. If you wanted, you could rule that they all use the exact same frequency and everything, but wouldn't a smart runner alter that with a little Hardware/Software test?

No.

There is no passive mode for UWBR, unlike for Ultrasound.
Detecting UWBR is the same as detection anything else with a Signal, mostly in Hidden Mode. In which case, your commlinks will pose the same problem. Of course, Signal tracking is "accurate" to 50 meters…

Thus, nothing.

So how would radar affect improved invis?

Well, from a physics standpoint, radar is similar to light but on a different frequency.

In Shadowrun though, radio (radar) is generally considered a different "element", which you need Static or some spell like that to jam. So radar would negate the effects of invisibility. [Otherwise you'd also be unable to use a commlink when invisible..]

Physical invisibility covers the visible spectrum, infra-red and maybe ultraviolet.

Not quite true. The cyberware comes in ratings 1-4, but still has a signal of 2.

Yeah, went back and read it, it does stick at signal 2. I think there is something else that adjusts its signal based on rating (besides the basic device rating) that I was thinking of.

Of course, you can improve it to Signal 4, given the usual upgrade rules in SR4A.

Ultrawideband Radar has a 100 Meters range (and can see through barriers dependant upon its rating)... Vehicle Radar has a range equal to the Vehicle's Signal Rating, and it does not penetrate barriers...

Keep the Faith

Actually no... Ultrawideband Radar states specifically it only has a range of 100 Meters...

Keep the Faith

some materials are opaque or reflective to radar. as such it would look very odd if pointed at a stealth bomber. i would think a variation of rfid-blocking paint could simply stop radar-sense.

What you're thinking of are the Signal rating of Vehicle Sensor Arrays(I think), which have their own Signal dependent upon the size of the vehicle. Unfortunately, it would work with Regular radar, but not with ultrawideband, because it specifically says it has a range of Signal 2(100 meters.)

Possibly standard Signal upgrades for commlinks - but thats for wireless, not radar. I suppose you could put a wi-fi adapter on your radar if you really wanted it to send its findings out to someone.

Edit: I think an AI living in a sensor array could do it, becuase Signal is Signal, hey?

Rules for Ultrawideband state that the sensor is not fooled by Invisibility nor camouflage... the Invisibility is not negated, per se, but it is ignored for the Radar User, and you can see both Invisible and camouflaged characters as if they were not using those abilities...

Keep the Faith

The books state that Wi-Fi Inhibition defeats Radar Sensors...

See the entry for Smugglers Compartments in Arsenal (it is a Vehicle Modification, located on page 144 of Arsenal)

Keep the Faith

Wrong. Both in Augmentation and Arsenal, the range reference is Signal.

Recognition software would be limited in use on this though as UWBR only takes in shape info and it's movement, no colors, no patterns, no 2-D renderings, no light sources. I would say a reduced rating would apply.

Which if you look at Signal 2, is 100 METERS... Sheesh...

So, NOT WRONG...

Keep the Faith

Which is 100M. Though it IS good to point out the difference as if one point is jammed then the visual range drops to 40M or only 3M if entirely jammed.

Your statement

is wrong as RAW does not specifically state it only has a range of 100 meters – but specifically states it has a Signal of 2 for range and jamming.

Yes – and that is still different from those sensors that have a fixed range value stated specifically, even if their Signal is higher. (And of course Signal also allows for upgrades.)

By RAW, jamming doesn't subtract from range, but is an either-or contest… and it's best not to think too hard about this, especially with the rules for signal attenuation.

I thought signal was a decrease thing, and not an all or nothing affair.

In 4th, it is an all or nothing affair - but Jamming on the Fly can make up for it, if you find a device you can't auto-jam with your jammer, you can start to jam-on-the-fly with it instead.

You can, however, land an EMP on someone to short out their antenna, reducing their signal by 3. Its actaully a pretty reliable way to ambush and jack security drones. Device rating 4, goes to 1, which is still within mutual signal range for someone to hack control of, after its controlling rigger is(presumably) cut off from the drone by lack of mutual signal.

Which works great to protect a facility til you realize that you can't track employees, your comms are all screwed up, etc.

Still, for secure vaults and the like I'd expect them to be slathered in wi-fi blocking material. And not just vs radar, it hinders invaders in all sorts of ways. Your own guards/employees could use alternate tech for comms and tracking.


-karma

I'd imagine it is used more on the outside of the building, and to separate important sections. Also keep in mind you could do all the walls as wi-fi inhibitors and then have relay devices set up throughout the building. Somewhat less secure for hacking (though the hacker would likely have to find them as they should be in hidden mode most likely) but great for stopping UWBR, which companies must realize as a serious security and even more serious intelligence threat ("Oh, let me just get a nice close look at that latest thing-a-ma-jig^tm by walking past the building with my UWBR.")