LOS targeting question with spells., Question on line of sight targeting on spells. Options

[captainh]

I know you need to see someone to target them with a direct combat spell like manabolt or power bolt. My question has to do with mana spells and full body armor. Lets say someone is in a full security body suit like Master Chief from Halo where you can't see anything of their actual body. Now power bolt should work just fine, but would a mana spell like manabolt work since you can't see their actual body?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know you need to see someone to target them with a direct combat spell like manabolt or power bolt. My question has to do with mana spells and full body armor. Lets say someone is in a full security body suit like Master Chief from Halo where you can't see anything of their actual body. Now power bolt should work just fine, but would a mana spell like manabolt work since you can't see their actual body?

Yes, Mana Bolt still works... Armor does not stop LOS for spellcasting purposes... You would need to be in an actual vehicle (among other things) for that...

Keep the Faith

[HugeC]

The target being non-naked doesn't affect spell targeting, so yes, mana bolt works fine no matter how much of your skin is covered by your clothing.

[MJBurrage]

IIRC, so long as the rules treat the "suit of armor" as clothes, than the wearer may be targeted by mana spells.

Once a "suit of armor" becomes large enough to be treated as a vehicle by the rules, then it would give the user the same protection a vehicle does (i.e. the user cannot be seen, and cannot be directly targeted by LOS spells)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

IIRC, so long as the rules treat the "suit of armor" as clothes, than the wearer may be targeted by mana spells.

Once a "suit of armor" becomes large enough to be treated as a vehicle by the rules, then it would give the user the same protection a vehicle does (i.e. the user cannot be seen, and cannot be directly targeted by LOS spells)

Currently there exists no wearable armor that counts as a Vehicle, so that should not be a problem...

Keep the Faith

[Tanegar]

IIRC, so long as the rules treat the "suit of armor" as clothes, than the wearer may be targeted by mana spells.

Once a "suit of armor" becomes large enough to be treated as a vehicle by the rules, then it would give the user the same protection a vehicle does (i.e. the user cannot be seen, and cannot be directly targeted by LOS spells)

*has a sudden burning urge to construct a BattleMech in Shadowrun rules*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*has a sudden burning urge to construct a BattleMech in Shadowrun rules*

Please, Not that line of Discussion again...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

You need Rigger 3 for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Alas…

[Jaid]

You need Rigger 3 for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Alas…

not really. it's actually not that hard with what we have.

well, i should say... it's not hard to make a roughly humanoid vehicle. i don't think there's anything that would properly compare to how tough and especially how large a battlemech is.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh, I meant that the old edition had car-sized+ walkers you could ride in, right? The new one has some jarhead walkers, but nothing that's an actual vehicle? Honestly, I haven't looked that closely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Certainly nothing *big* mech sized, though, in either one.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Everyone has been right so far. If you want the fluff excuse you are targeting peoples auras when you spell cast and not there physical form. Auras extend out far enough that you see them even when a person is in full armor.

[CanadianWolverin...]

So, if a character presses up against say for example a window, their aura could be seen? Have we ever come up with a silly fictional number for just how far out a aura extends to bypass armor?

Not trying to be obtuse, because besides I figure our fictional futuristic armor is looking to be thin/light weight and flexible anyways, even in its largest number form.

Wouldn't it be fun as a magic user to come up with fun ways to get characters to expose their aura when they thought they were safely behind aura related cover.

"How did they get him?"
"Not a clue, one second he is gazing out his window and the next he is dead."
"And the window checks out as secure?"
"Yeah, only his fingers prints were on it."

[Dahrken]

I'd say no. Why ? Because the armor is a part of your target's outfit - both of them can be viewed as a whole - while the windows he's pressing on lacks that connexion, it's a part of the building and not of the guard (unless you blast it and embed some shards in him but that's not the point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) ).

[RunnerPaul]

So, if a character presses up against say for example a window, their aura could be seen?

No, becasue unlike something worn, the window's aura is never closely enough subsumed under your own to become integrated under your own aural wholeness. Clothing, even thick armor plated "clothing", by nature of its prolonged and intimate contact with the wearer, becomes entangled with the wearer's aura to the point that they are effectively one. This is the same reason that clothing typically falls under the rules for "Oft-Handled Objects" under the sympathetic linking rules for ritual magic, while your window might, at best, count as a "Recently Handled Object" if someone stood against it long enough.

[Jaid]

Oh, I meant that the old edition had car-sized+ walkers you could ride in, right? The new one has some jarhead walkers, but nothing that's an actual vehicle? Honestly, I haven't looked that closely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Certainly nothing *big* mech sized, though, in either one.

well, it has cars, and it has a modification that gives a vehicle legs. it's not much of a stretch to change that from "it has cars" to "it has car-sized vehicles with legs"

[Dakka Dakka]

Yup the Patrol-1 + Walker mod is a good base for a tiny mech or with Cyborg adaptation for a Dreadnought. For an expensive but speedy mech, start with the Westwind.

Bigger (i.e. more BOD) Mechs are not possible to be modified by RAW. they could however be created by GM Fiat (not the two Car Companies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[TommyTwoToes]

Yup the Patrol-1 + Walker mod is a good base for a tiny mech or with Cyborg adaptation for a Dreadnought. For an expensive but speedy mech, start with the Westwind.

Bigger (i.e. more BOD) Mechs are not possible to be modified by RAW. they could however be created by GM Fiat (not the two Car Companies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

After Avatar was over and we all were walking to our cars, 1 of us looked at each other and said "They have a lower tech level than Shadowrun."

The tin can mechs in Avatar are well within the available tech for 2070.

[Dakka Dakka]

Haven't seen Avatar, so I can't comment on that.

[KarmaInferno]

They're not that much different than the APUs from Matrix Reloaded.

Only with less ammo capacity, I think.




-karma

[Xahn Borealis]

They're not that much different than the APUs from Matrix Reloaded.

Only with less ammo capacity, I think.




-karma

And sealed canopies and big knives too. Also, only one gun and it's rifle-shaped. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. The funny thing is, I never even thought of the APUs, even though they both have acronyms that begin with A. I actually thought of the loaders from the Aliens movies that James Cameron also did.

[CanadianWolverin...]

No, becasue unlike something worn, the window's aura is never closely enough subsumed under your own to become integrated under your own aural wholeness. Clothing, even thick armor plated "clothing", by nature of its prolonged and intimate contact with the wearer, becomes entangled with the wearer's aura to the point that they are effectively one. This is the same reason that clothing typically falls under the rules for "Oft-Handled Objects" under the sympathetic linking rules for ritual magic, while your window might, at best, count as a "Recently Handled Object" if someone stood against it long enough.

Hmm, so lets go with what you are saying, which I am guessing comes from some other book than the BBB, like Street Magic or something, correct? Would that mean armor/clothing can block the aura if it is the first time that putz has thrown it on? Disposable clothing, like the cover-alls I remember wearing for site clean up, how does that factor into these things? How long is too long to stand beside an inanimate object in order for your aura to show up through it?

Guess that cardboard box thought of in past scenarios brought up of infiltration versus the strengths of astral perception isn't going to cut it any more, eh?

[Falconer]

Yes, astral visibility is such that the aura extends a short distance beyond the body. Far enough that something like heavy armor or very bulky clothing won't hide it. It's actually explicitly stated in prior editions that this is the case, and IIRC restated in street magic.

So if someone were to lean against a very thin piece of plywood or a window. The aura would extend through... though there'd be a large astral visibility penalty provided by the astral shadow of the non-living material. (remember astral shadows are completely insubstantial).

Also remember mirrors and windows on the astral don't work (windows have an astral shadow just like a thin sheet of material). So while a mage sight system can provide normal vision LOS, you can't get astral perception through it either. (I've seen someone try to pull this one to cast spells from within an armored vehicle... okay you can see the battlefield... but you'll actually have to expose yourself to see the astral mage or spirit following you).

[Dahrken]

Hmm, so lets go with what you are saying, which I am guessing comes from some other book than the BBB, like Street Magic or something, correct? Would that mean armor/clothing can block the aura if it is the first time that putz has thrown it on? Disposable clothing, like the cover-alls I remember wearing for site clean up, how does that factor into these things? How long is too long to stand beside an inanimate object in order for your aura to show up through it?

Guess that cardboard box thought of in past scenarios brought up of infiltration versus the strengths of astral perception isn't going to cut it any more, eh?

IMHO it is not a matter of time/thickness, but rather of use. Magic works with connexions, that's why a picture of someone can be used for ritual spellcasting (granted, it's far from easy but it is possible).

By wearing or carrying an item/a piece of cloth/whatever you create a connexion between you and it. The longer/more fequent the association is, the stronger the connexion and the longer it persists after you drop/remove the item, but it does not take time to establish.

Hiding behind something does not make this connexion - the window/plywood sheet/whatever while touched is not a part of your outfit but something definitievely separate.

It is how I explain that you can target a spell at a guard in full body armor with his faceplate down but not the same guard, unarmored, leaning against an armored door no thicker than the the armor no matter how long he stayed there, because in the first situation you target a whole package, a guard wearing armor and a sheild and not a guard behind an armor standing on it's own.

To sum things up : if you carry or wear something, it provides no obstruction to spell targeting (it still can impart visibility modifiers for exemple with camo or ruthenium polymers), obstruction to spells comes only with full cover.

[Da9iel]

It is actually much harder to hit a naked man with a direct damage spell. After all, "Clothes make the man." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Rand]

IMHO it is not a matter of time/thickness, but rather of use. Magic works with connexions, that's why a picture of someone can be used for ritual spellcasting (granted, it's far from easy but it is possible).

By wearing or carrying an item/a piece of cloth/whatever you create a connexion between you and it. The longer/more fequent the association is, the stronger the connexion and the longer it persists after you drop/remove the item, but it does not take time to establish.

So, if it the window of the house you have lived in for 20+ years, do you have a connection with that? By this reasoning, a person should be able to stand outside your house (within visual distance of it) and use it as a material link to you (though, hard, like you said). Boy, the real estate industry would love shadowrun magic to come into being! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

This is probably the biggest problem I have with SR magic, by trying to get all cute they have made it so there are many holes. The aura thing is one of those holes. As far as I am concerned your aura is you, it doesn't extend beyond you. (Or, rather, the aura that extends isn't the part of the aura that can be targetted.) So, if the guy is in full body armor and his visor is mirrored (and when wouldn't it be?!?) you don't have line of sight to him. Aaaaawwwww, shucks! You have to use a physical spell, or summon a spirit, or whatever. That can be a big equalizer for meat against mana. Mages are hideously powerful in SR, so something that limits them somewhat (and makes them need the sammy with the panther cannon) is a good thing, imo.